Super Bowl XLII

[Good Old Neon]

FYI, no one said this. Whether you agree or not, Bobbob has always maintained his stance on Brady. This latest game has nothing to do with it.

 

Edit: please correct me if I am wrong here, bobbob.

 

 

Yeah, that wasn

[Sir Stewart]

I

[ZenLunatic]

FYI, no one said this. Whether you agree or not, Bobbob has always maintained his stance on Brady. This latest game has nothing to do with it.

 

Edit: please correct me if I am wrong here, bobbob.

 

 

I think mostly directected to jakobnicholas who I was directing to. Bobbob did always say that about Brady, which he will eventually start seeing differently.

[bobbob1313]

Your plan to shut Manning and Brady down is way too simplistic. It says nothing.

 

With Brady, forget the superbowls then. Look at any other stat and where he is in his career. A part of being a great player is winning with bad players. Winning is the key.

 

Simple defenses are often the most effective. Brady and Manning will pick you apart of you do one of two things: Get no pressure on them, or bring too many guys and leave people open. This is obvious, and goes for any quarterback, but especially these two, who can read blitzes and coverages as well as any. You aren't going to trick them with zone blitzes or complicated coverage schemes. You are going to beat them by breaking the pocket with 4 guys, or maybe 5 if you've got a really effective secondary.

 

Look at the teams that give these guys fits. Pittsburgh, San Diego, Miami (for the Pats up until this year was a difficult game every time). These are teams who run 3-4 defenses with at least 2 stud pass rushers. This is why they are able to disrupt them so much. They can get pressure without sacrificing coverage.

 

The giants had the perfect game plan for Brady.

 

Winning is the key, sure. There are 21 other starters and about 20 other players who also can have a significant impact on a win or loss.

 

Take, for instance, this last super bowl. The Giants very nearly could've locked up the game in the 3rd when Manning hit Steve Smith inside the red zone on a quick hitch. Smith bobbles it, and Ellis Hobbs picks it off. This is not Eli Manning's fault, but it could have lost the Giants the game. He would then "take the loss".

 

Giving quarterbacks credit for wins and losses is, imo almost as dumb as giving pitchers credit for W/L in baseball. They have a large hand in it, but even the best quarterback influences less than half of a game.

 

I think mostly directected to jakobnicholas who I was directing to. Bobbob did always say that about Brady, which he will eventually start seeing differently.

 

It is entirely possible. He is still quite young. He'll never be above Manning in my eyes.

[ZenLunatic]

Giving quarterbacks credit for wins and losses is, imo almost as dumb as giving pitchers credit for W/L in baseball. They have a large hand in it, but even the best quarterback influences less than half of a game.

 

I do think the pitcher and the QB are the most important positions by far in each of the sports. Yeah, its not all them and both are team sports and you need a great overall team to be a winning team. Alot is coaching too, everything plays into it. Still winning is important and a gage to how good a player is. Of course there are some exceptions like Marino, but for the most part, consistent winning is a good measure of talent, just like any other stat you talk about. Cant just discount winning percetage.

[bobbob1313]

I would say you can discount WP almost entirely, but that's just me.

 

Jay Fiedler had 5/6 winning seasons as the quarterback of the Dolphins. He is alot of things, but he definitely isn't a good quarterback.

 

Some quarterbacks elevate the players around them on offense. Brady, Manning, Marino, et al. But they still don't play defense. I don't see what is so hard to see about this. A team is only as good as it's offense and defense. The quarterback only effects one part of this. Is he the single most important player on the field at any given moment? Probably. But, at best, he controls 50% of a team's ability to win.

[Lammycat]

There are quantifiable ways to rate pitchers and QBs (to some extent), though. Even so, it always boils down to arguable points from detractors and supporters of a given player. There are so many factors to consider in team sports when "rating" a player that the fact that it unltimately boils down to personal taste is sometimes lost.

 

Marino is considered by most as one of the all-time greats yet you rarely see Brady on a top-10 list of all-time greats. I don't think this means Brady is overrated, just in the throes of his career. Although Peyton will usually show on the same lists as Marino, so....

[ZenLunatic]

I would say you can discount WP almost entirely, but that's just me.

 

Jay Fiedler had 5/6 winning seasons as the quarterback of the Dolphins. He is alot of things, but he definitely isn't a good quarterback.

 

Some quarterbacks elevate the players around them on offense. Brady, Manning, Marino, et al. But they still don't play defense. I don't see what is so hard to see about this. A team is only as good as it's offense and defense. The quarterback only effects one part of this. Is he the single most important player on the field at any given moment? Probably. But, at best, he controls 50% of a team's ability to win.

 

I dont know Fielder's stats but just because you have a winnging season doesnt mean that much, you can be 9-7 and have a winning season if thats what u mean and that isnt good. You have to have a high winning percetage and win in big games. I do think offense can effect the defense. A horrible offense can discourage a great defense along with wearing them down. I saw this all season long with the Bears.

 

The QB still has the most effect on the game than any other one player in the game by far. Reason why Eli Manning got MVP and not the Giants Defense, Defense in my opinion was the true winning factor in the game.

[Guest Jules]

Marino is considered by most as one of the all-time greats yet you rarely see Brady on a top-10 list of all-time greats.

I've seen the opposite, especially during this season.

[bobbob1313]

Eli got the MVP for "The Great Escape".

[bjorn_skurj]

Eli got the MVP for "The Great Escape".

That name for the play occurred to me, but I felt it didn't honor Tyree's achievement as well.

[Sir Stewart]

Eli got the MVP for "The Great Escape".

Deservedly so, I think. That really was one of the most remarkable sports moments I've ever seen. I can't imagine what it would have felt like if I wasn't fucking rooting for the Patriots grr$@

[bobbob1313]

Deservedly so, I think. That really was one of the most remarkable sports moments I've ever seen. I can't imagine what it would have felt like if I wasn't fucking rooting for the Patriots grr$@

 

I lost my mind when it happened. I could not believe what just happened. I still can't.

 

That name for the play occurred to me, but I felt it didn't honor Tyree's achievement as well.

 

Word. The catch it almost as remarkable, maybe more so. "The Great Escape" was just one I've been kicking around.

[Sir Stewart]

I lost my mind when it happened. I could not believe what just happened. I still can't.

Seconded.

[bjorn_skurj]

Deservedly so, I think. That really was one of the most remarkable sports moments I've ever seen. I can't imagine what it would have felt like if I wasn't fucking rooting for the Patriots grr$@

Shock, then awe.

[Good Old Neon]

Deservedly so, I think. That really was one of the most remarkable sports moments I've ever seen. I can't imagine what it would have felt like if I wasn't fucking rooting for the Patriots grr$@

 

 

No kidding

[jakobnicholas]

Tom Brady is a top-5 quarterback in the NFL right now. Nothing more. He's a sure-bet Hall-Of-Famer because of his 3 titles.

 

Trent Green, when on the Chiefs.....and playing behind a great offensive line, racked up huge numbers under Dick Vermeil's 5-year tenure. The Chiefs had the #1 offense for most of that time period and Green went over 4,000 yards one year. Green would stand back in the pocket and pick apart just about anybody....much like Brady does now.

 

But the Chiefs defense ranked almost dead last every year and the Chiefs had only one playoff game.....a close loss to the Colts in which there wasn't a punt.

 

The way Brady was presssured in the Super Bowl is like AT LEAST half of the quarterbacks in the NFL. Welcome to club.

 

Brady's good. But he is NOWHERE NEAR in the league of Elway or Montana or Favre or Marino.....etc. Brady has the benefit of great defenses, great kickers (ask Marty Schottenheimer if he'd have a Super Bowl appearnce if his kickers made their kicks), and a smart coach who cheats to give his team an advantage over the opposition.

[Good Old Neon]

Tom Brady is a top-5 quarterback in the NFL right now. Nothing more. He's a sure-bet Hall-Of-Famer because of his 3 titles.

 

Trent Green, when on the Chiefs.....and playing behind a great offensive line, racked up huge numbers under Dick Vermeil's 5-year tenure. The Chiefs had the #1 offense for most of that time period and Green went over 4,000 yards one year. Green would stand back in the pocket and pick apart just about anybody....much like Brady does now.

 

But the Chiefs defense ranked almost dead last every year and the Chiefs had only one playoff game.....a close loss to the Colts in which there wasn't a punt.

 

The way Brady was presssured in the Super Bowl is like AT LEAST half of the quarterbacks in the NFL. Welcome to club.

 

Brady's good. But he is NOWHERE NEAR in the league of Elway or Montana or Favre or Marino.....etc. Brady has the benefit of great defenses, great kickers (ask Marty Schottenheimer if he'd have a Super Bowl appearnce if his kickers made their kicks), and a smart coach who cheats to give his team an advantage over the opposition.

 

You may want to have a look at this

[jakobnicholas]

Yawn.

[bobbob1313]

That first paragraph is meaningless to me.

 

The second is ok. Just because he hasn't had Pro-Bowlers next to him doesn't mean he hasn't had some great players. They have great offensive lines, great tight ends and good to great receivers in his tenure.

 

He's one of the 2 best quarterbacks in the league right now.

 

My question is if the Buffalo Bills win one or two of the 4 super bowls they play in during the 90's, do people start putting Jim Kelly near the top of all time lists? And if so, how do those 2 games affect him? You have to take super bowl victories out of the equation when discussing quarterbacks, because teams win them, not players.

 

This is why I think Brady is overrated by many. He gets too much credit for the wins.

[JerseyMike]

My question is if the Buffalo Bills win one or two of the 4 super bowls they play in during the 90's, do people start putting Jim Kelly near the top of all time lists? And if so, how do those 2 games affect him? You have to take super bowl victories out of the equation when discussing quarterbacks, because teams win them, not players.

 

Jim Kelly was a first-ballot Hall-of Famer.

 

Brady is not overrated.

 

Name one great QB who has won without great players around him.

[Good Old Neon]

That first paragraph is meaningless to me.

 

The second is ok. Just because he hasn't had Pro-Bowlers next to him doesn't mean he hasn't had some great players. They have great offensive lines, great tight ends and good to great receivers in his tenure.

 

He's one of the 2 best quarterbacks in the league right now.

 

My question is if the Buffalo Bills win one or two of the 4 super bowls they play in during the 90's, do people start putting Jim Kelly near the top of all time lists? And if so, how do those 2 games affect him? You have to take super bowl victories out of the equation when discussing quarterbacks, because teams win them, not players.

 

This is why I think Brady is overrated by many. He gets too much credit for the wins.

 

I agree that teams win games, championships, etc, however, what cannot be overlooked, is how far the Patriots have come since signing Brady.

 

If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading the entire article from which I excerpted - that goes double for sleepy.

[jenbobblehead]

you know who is overrated? Justin Timberlake.

[Good Old Neon]

you know who is overrated? Justin Timberlake.

 

You shut yo mouth!

[H-Bomb Henry]

Finished the season with 398 completions, which ranks fourth on the all-time single-season list for NFL quarterbacks... Set career single-season highs in five statistical categories including completions (389), completion percentage (68.9), passing yards (4,806), touchdown passes (50) and passer rating (117.2) in 2007... Set the NFL's single-season touchdown pass record with his 50th touchdown of the season with a 65-yard touchdown reception to Randy Moss, his second scoring strike of the game in the Patriots' 38-35 win over the New York Giants on Dec. 29.

 

Please note:

Peyton threw 49 touchdowns in 15 games. And in only 497 attempts. Brady 578 attempts 16 games.

 

Also with the opportunity to break the record in game 14 Peyton took a knee with the ball in the red zone. Something New England would never think of doing.

 

Pre-Colts superbowl New England fans (specifically Bill Simmons) called Manning a stats whore. However near the end of the season when Brady was lobbing up touchdown passes from the 1 yard line Simmons and the rest of the Pats fan the same name did not apply.