Paul Simon

[suites]

While I still like Simon and Garfunkel and think Simon has written some incredible songs this article has totally tainted my opinion of the man.

 

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/9391/LONE-...-STEVE-BERLIN/1

 

I have nothing but respect for Los Lobos as one of THE hardest working bands on the planet. If a fellow musician, ones that have the respect of pretty much everybody in the industry, are willing to say this, there's no doubt in my mind it's true

 

 

Yeah.....F Paul Simon....

[redpillbox]

While I still like Simon and Garfunkel and think Simon has written some incredible songs this article has totally tainted my opinion of the man.

 

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/9391/LONE-...-STEVE-BERLIN/1

 

I have nothing but respect for Los Lobos as one of THE hardest working bands on the planet. If a fellow musician, ones that have the respect of pretty much everybody in the industry, are willing to say this, there's no doubt in my mind it's true

 

 

That's some crazy S$%!

[junebug]

I've always loved Graceland.

The only complaint I have is the 80's sounding drum kit he used. If they would just remaster that with some natural sounding drums it would be KILLER.

[uncool2pillow]

It is interesting. Why is this the first we've heard about it? 20 years later? There are 2 sides to every story, but it does change the way I look at Paul Simon a little.

[suites]

It is interesting. Why is this the first we've heard about it? 20 years later? There are 2 sides to every story, but it does change the way I look at Paul Simon a little.

 

 

From what I understand, this story has been out for years. I guess supressed with the media.

[Sir Stewart]

Which Graceland song is he talking about? It's either not mentioned or I skimmed too fast.

[johnnyd]

It is interesting. Why is this the first we've heard about it? 20 years later? There are 2 sides to every story, but it does change the way I look at Paul Simon a little.

 

 

I don't want to bring anybody down or rain on their parade but like I said, I have immense respect for Los Lobos. If they're saying this then I believe it.

[uncool2pillow]

My problem is that I have enormous respect for both Los Lobos and Paul Simon. Again, 2 sides to every story. Truth somewhere in the middle.

[M. (hristine]

Which Graceland song is he talking about? It's either not mentioned or I skimmed too fast.

Myth of Fingerprints.

 

There was tremendous criticism of Simon when this album came out, along the same lines as the Los Lobos story. Most of what got publicized was about the musical exploitation of Ladysmith Black Mombasa. I had never heard the story that Berlin tells. That's pretty fucked up, though it has the ring of truth. Simon's arrogance after the fact especially.

 

There was a period of time in the early to mid eighties where many of those higher echelon music dudes floundered artistically because of coke.

[johnnyd]

My problem is that I have enormous respect for both Los Lobos and Paul Simon. Again, 2 sides to every story. Truth somewhere in the middle.

 

Not nescessarily.

[LouieB]

So what was the problem with Los Lobos playing on Graceland? And are we going to rehash Paul Simon's appropriation of world music again? No one benefited more from Simon than Ladysmith Black Mambazo. They still tour and are world famous because of Graceland. (No one gives Peter Gabriel shit for doing basically the same thing..>)

 

LouieB

[Sir Stewart]

So what was the problem with Los Lobos playing on Graceland?

 

If you read the article, one of the Los Loboses claims Paul Simon recorded and released one of their tunes without crediting them (apparently "Myth of Fingerprints") and told them "sue me" when they confronted him about it.

I'll never understand the criticism against Simon's use of Ladysmith Black Mambazo. People act like he was in a pith helmet and had them captured in the jungle. Weird.

[LouieB]

If you read the article, one of the Los Loboses claims Paul Simon recorded and released one of their tunes without crediting them (apparently "Myth of Fingerprints") and told them "sue me" when they confronted him about it.

I'll never understand the criticism against Simon's use of Ladysmith Black Mambazo. People act like he was in a pith helmet and had them captured in the jungle. Weird.

Yea, I skimmed the article, being too busy getting ready for work to read it carefully. I am sure Paul Simon can be an ass. Some things suck in the music biz, but then again Los Lobos benefited from being on Graceland (although their work is the least exciting on the album) and they haven't done too badly for themselves over the years...

 

LouieB

[junebug]

Funny because I recently watched one of those "VH1 Classic Albums" specials about Graceland. Paul was saying that Graceland was the best song he's ever written. (He might be right!)

I just don't understand how an accomplished songwriter can take credit for someone else's idea??

Yet I can totally picture Paul being an ass about it. Oh well. Problem is, we put musicians up on pedestals...I am guilty of it too.

But they are normal people who have human flaws.

Well except for Jeff...he is the MAN! LOL.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I would take the story with a huge grain of salt. The guy couldn't even remember what year he joined Los Lobos, yet he remembers many specific details (including dialogue) from what happened just two years later? Come on.

It's very possible that they played around with some riffs, or even an already existing chord structure, and Simon copped it for the song. What about the lyrics? Did they write those too, and Paul stole them? I highly doubt it. The guy makes it sound like everything they ever played in all their rehearsals was a completed song.

Plus, just like Louie said, Los Lobos got a huge shot of publicity from Graceland. Who ever heard of them before that? That was their pay. Was Simon a douche for not paying them cash, or giving them any songwriting credit? Probably, but jeez, give me a break: they were lucky he used them at all. And to talk like Simon was some washed-up folk guy is totally disingenuous. He is and will always be a big name in the music business, and even today is capable of selling out large halls. Where have Los Lobos played lately?

[Sir Stewart]

I would take the story with a huge grain of salt. The guy couldn't even remember what year he joined Los Lobos, yet he remembers many specific details (including dialogue) from what happened just two years later? Come on.

It's very possible that they played around with some riffs, or even an already existing chord structure, and Simon copped it for the song. What about the lyrics? Did they write those too, and Paul stole them? I highly doubt it. The guy makes it sound like everything they ever played in all their rehearsals was a completed song.

Plus, just like Louie said, Los Lobos got a huge shot of publicity from Graceland. Who ever heard of them before that? That was their pay. Was Simon a douche for not paying them cash, or giving them any songwriting credit? Probably, but jeez, give me a break: they were lucky he used them at all. And to talk like Simon was some washed-up folk guy is totally disingenuous. He is and will always be a big name in the music business, and even today is capable of selling out large halls. Where have Los Lobos played lately?

 

I'll add to this - in the interview, the guy says Simon was coming off of One Trick Pony. That was released in 1980. Hearts & Bones came out between OTP and Graceland. He essentially takes a period of 5 or 6 years and makes it sound like 6 months.

[johnnyd]

I would take the story with a huge grain of salt. The guy couldn't even remember what year he joined Los Lobos, yet he remembers many specific details (including dialogue) from what happened just two years later? Come on.

It's very possible that they played around with some riffs, or even an already existing chord structure, and Simon copped it for the song. What about the lyrics? Did they write those too, and Paul stole them? I highly doubt it. The guy makes it sound like everything they ever played in all their rehearsals was a completed song.

Plus, just like Louie said, Los Lobos got a huge shot of publicity from Graceland. Who ever heard of them before that? That was their pay. Was Simon a douche for not paying them cash, or giving them any songwriting credit? Probably, but jeez, give me a break: they were lucky he used them at all. And to talk like Simon was some washed-up folk guy is totally disingenuous. He is and will always be a big name in the music business, and even today is capable of selling out large halls. Where have Los Lobos played lately?

 

Where have they played? WTF kind of criteria is that to judge artistic merit? You're telling me that Hannah Montana is better than all other bands who sell less tickets? What about Wilco? How great a F'n band are they and yet only people in the know have heard of them. Right?

 

Actually Los Lobos had been a working band for quite awhile and they got a much bigger boost from LaBamba than they did from Graceland.

 

And as far as Simon being a washed up guy - his career WAS at an all time low before that album.

 

having said all that - that album certainly wasn't big because of anything Los Lobos contributed, it would have been big anyway. I have no doubt that he ripped them off and that and his subsequent attitude about it is something that any real artist would remember and take personal. When it comes to real musicians, not stars, they tend to have a lot of respect for their peers. I don't take it with a grain of salt at all. That band has immense respect from their peers and tons of street cred. I highly doubt they'd risk their reputation by making that up.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Where have they played? WTF kind of criteria is that to judge artistic merit? You're telling me that Hannah Montana is better than all other bands who sell less tickets? What about Wilco? How great a F'n band are they and yet only people in the know have heard of them. Right?

 

Actually Los Lobos had been a working band for quite awhile and they got a much bigger boost from LaBamba than they did from Graceland.

 

And as far as Simon being a washed up guy - his career WAS at an all time low before that album.

 

having said all that - that album certainly wasn't big because of anything Los Lobos contributed, it would have been big anyway. I have no doubt that he ripped them off and that and his subsequent attitude about it is something that any real artist would remember and take personal. When it comes to real musicians, not stars, they tend to have a lot of respect for their peers. I don't take it with a grain of salt at all. That band has immense respect from their peers and tons of street cred. I highly doubt they'd risk their reputation by making that up.

 

Who mentioned Hannah Montana? I'm simply saying that it's this one guy's word against Paul Simon, and the fact that he tried to paint Simon as "struggling" is pretty absurd, and smacks of sour grapes. There may be a lot more to this story than we'll ever know, but just because a band has "immense respect from their peers and tons of street cred" doesn't mean that every word from their band members is gospel. Do all the band members stand by all of this one guy's statements? I'd be curious to know ...

 

Dylan's career was at an all time low during the 80s too ... that's not really relevant to anything, is it? Every career has highs and lows. But this guy makes it sound like Los Lobos were doing Simon a huge favor joining him in the studio, when in reality, it was probably the reverse. But then, you have "no doubt he ripped them off," so I'm not going to try to open your mind.

 

What I don't understand is why someone even felt compelled to take a "Where Should I Start With Paul Simon?" thread and turn it into this. Should we turn all the Wilco threads into "Jeff was really mean to Jay" threads, or how about turning all the Dylan threads into "Boy, He Sure Ripped Off that Japanese Guy, Eh?" I don't see the point of all the negativity, I guess, but whatever. Have a nice weekend.

[johnnyd]

Who mentioned Hannah Montana? I'm simply saying that it's this one guy's word against Paul Simon, and the fact that he tried to paint Simon as "struggling" is pretty absurd, and smacks of sour grapes. There may be a lot more to this story than we'll ever know, but just because a band has "immense respect from their peers and tons of street cred" doesn't mean that every word from their band members is gospel. Do all the band members stand by all of this one guy's statements? I'd be curious to know ...

 

Dylan's career was at an all time low during the 80s too ... that's not really relevant to anything, is it? Every career has highs and lows. But this guy makes it sound like Los Lobos were doing Simon a huge favor joining him in the studio, when in reality, it was probably the reverse. But then, you have "no doubt he ripped them off," so I'm not going to try to open your mind.

 

What I don't understand is why someone even felt compelled to take a "Where Should I Start With Paul Simon?" thread and turn it into this. Should we turn all the Wilco threads into "Jeff was really mean to Jay" threads, or how about turning all the Dylan threads into "Boy, He Sure Ripped Off that Japanese Guy, Eh?" I don't see the point of all the negativity, I guess, but whatever. Have a nice weekend.

 

 

So what you're saying is there is no room here for a critical response to anything because that's negative? I wouldn't bash Wilco on a message board dedicated to them ( even if I did have something negative to say about them which I don't ), but this isn't a Paul Simon board is it? That's just one thread out of many.

 

It's not absurd that his career was struggling because at that time it was. Sounds to me that they didn't want to do it so that's hardly a favorto them is it? Please. They're in a very good place in their career because they earned it on artistic merit, Paul Simon has squat to do with their sucess.

 

 

And the Hannah Montanna reference was a direct example as a reply to what you implied - " where have they played"

YOU brought that up as some sort of relevant point, not me. And it doesn't sound like your mind is any more open than mine about anything imo.

 

I don't want to bring anyone down so I'll drop it. I still like a lot of Paul Simons songs ( although I'm not a fan of anything he's done post 70's ) but he certainly came off as a dick IF what was said is true and I don't find it hard at all to believe. But I dont have to like him to like his songs.

 

So to answer the original question - get the complete Simon and Garfunkle collected works on three CD's - reasonable priced. OR the concert in the park is a great run through

[LouieB]

I like both Simon and Los Lobos. Although Los Lobos was certainly a national act by the time he did Graceland (86 and How Will the Wolf Survive 84), old Steve Berlin should count his lucky stars Los Lobos took him on. His former band (and one of my all time faves), The Blasters broke up and certainly never achieved the fame Los Lobos did. They have made plenty of money in their own right and Steve is hooked up with some great songwriters. This all seems sort of petty on his part. He could be back in LA playing in some lounge at this point, were it not for the guys for East LA taking his gringo ass on.

 

LouieB

[Mr. Heartbreak]

... it doesn't sound like your mind is any more open than mine about anything imo.

 

I don't want to bring anyone down so I'll drop it.

Funniest non-sequitur ever.

You're absolutely right, in everything you said.

Like I said before, have a good weekend. Welcome to Via Chicago, buddy!

[johnnyd]

Funniest non-sequitur ever.

You're absolutely right, in everything you said.

Like I said before, have a good weekend. Welcome to Via Chicago, buddy!

 

Thanks! You have a good weekend too