Wilco and atheism

[bobbob1313]

I just really don't get why people can't just believe whatever they want. It really blows my fucking mind.

[MattZ]

I just really don't get why people can't just believe whatever they want. It really blows my fucking mind.

 

We know, dude. We know.

[bobbob1313]

It bears repeating.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Well I skimmed the last few pages, but don't see any response to my question of why TheMaker insists on painting the entire god-fearing population with a single brush stroke. There are many scientists, etc. that still hold belief in a higher power, don't let it effect their work and so on. As long as someone isn't telling you what to believe, why does it matter? Again, you seem to see "moderate" religious people as a bad thing. You may not agree with their beliefs 100%, but who does? They are not Fred Phelps and that's a good thing! I'd like to see more people of faith stand up and denounce Fred Phelps, James Dobson and the like so that we can coexist with various faiths or no faith at all. Seems counterproductive to me to attack those that would pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in.

 

Has anyone seen Lars & the Real Girl? In that film (don't read if you don;'t want spoilers), a man is comforted by having a relationship with a mannequin. It's never quite clear whether he 100% believes it is real, but it helps him. Those around him initially are shocked and wish to "make him better." How could someone believe in something like that!?! In the end, his family, the townspeople and even the girl who likes him realize that he's not hurting anyone and he needs this to get him through.

 

Now I don;t want anyone to think I am equating belief in god(s) with falling in love with a mannequin. Rather I think it is an interesting way to remove ourselves from the parameters of a heated subject to look at how personal beliefs -- so long as they remain personal and don't impinge on others -- are not necessarily threatening and part of a very large world made up of a myriad of different people. If we can't appreciate that what is good for one isn't necessarily good for another, we are doomed!

[EL the Famous]

Well I skimmed the last few pages, but don't see any response to my question of why TheMaker insists on painting the entire god-fearing population with a single brush stroke.

 

I'd like to see more people of faith stand up and denounce Fred Phelps, James Dobson and the like so that we can coexist with various faiths or no faith at all. Seems counterproductive to me to attack those that would pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in.

 

because, to paraphrase, we're idiots. for the record though, my belief in god couldn't be any less based in fear.

 

Fred Phelps, James Dobson and the like are assholes and i denounce them. seriously.

[Good Old Neon]

I just really don't get why people can't just believe whatever they want. It really blows my fucking mind.

 

They can, but I thought we were having a discussion on the nature of religion and religious belief. Plus, I think you

[Central Scrutinizer]

I agree and that's the point he was trying to make. That people shouldn't take the old testament so literally. He wasn't directly trying to apply science to it, just showing how it might have worked together, if that's what someone wants to believe.

I was echoiing his point, not refuting it. So... yeah.

[JUDE]

Say what you will about

[Central Scrutinizer]

But why

[Moe_Syzlak]

So, I guess my question is, why?

Because religion can be divisive and I will stand up for what I don't believe in when others foist their beliefs on me (see Phelps, Dobson, Palin, et al) just as I have stood up to decry the divisiveness of those that foist their atheism on others (as I have in this thread).

[EL the Famous]

I think on a personal level some atheists are driven to these attacks on religion out of an emotional or personal level -- perhaps the same "crisis of faith" that drives some people to an eternal being.

 

completely agree. i'm trying to figure out how some get around the massive chip on their shoulder to pat themselves on the back for being so intellectually superior.

[Moe_Syzlak]

completely agree. i'm trying to figure out how some get around the massive chip on their shoulder to pat themselves on the back for being so intellectually superior.

Personally i think that attitude doesn't help and you paint all atheists with a single brush stroke just as you criticize TheMaker for doing. I know I have no crisis of faith.

[Central Scrutinizer]

The Dragon In My Garage

by Carl Sagan

The problem I have with this is that people don't start with "god" and then seek to rationalize it. People experience life and they try to make sense of it. Sure, religions offer their "way" as an option, but someone who is a "seeker" (a very *in* term for churches doing marketing to build their membership and budgets) would go through an approach towards that faith just like the person asking about the dragon. In a sense the person may ultimately decide on the best dragon story. Or they could get really pissed at all his neighbors for trying to deceive him and firebomb them when they sleep.

 

Because religion can be divisive and I will stand up for what I don't believe in when others foist their beliefs on me (see Phelps, Dobson, Palin, et al) just as I have stood up to decry the divisiveness of those that foist their atheism on others (as I have in this thread).

Well done, good and faithful servant!

[EL the Famous]

Personally i think that attitude doesn't help and you paint all atheists with a single brush stroke just as you criticize TheMaker for doing. I know I have no crisis of faith.

 

sorry, i'll be more specific...i'm trying to figure out how TheMaker and J. Crew get around the massive chip on their shoulder to pat themselves on the back for being so intellectually superior. i have no crisis of faith or crisis over their lack of it...i just think they get off on being edgy in their critisicism of a long list of things that goes way beyond the existence of god/religious belief.

 

but, as i'll be reminded, i can always hit the ignore button and this is (gasp) actually a thread on J.Nick's favorite topic, so carry on.

[Good Old Neon]

One wing

You're talking about a written history that evolved over thousands of years. it's like complaining that Alexander Graham Bell would have sold more phones if he had a Web site. They're stories, metaphors, analogies, history. Do you read Beowulf like this morning's sports page? Discount the Illiad because it has a bunch of characters claiming to be gods?

 

The old testament is an important lesson in that people are intercoursingly stupid, and yet we haven't destroyed ourselves. Like any literature, like any advice, counseling, self-help, intellectual diversion, whatever gets you through the freakin' day.

 

My point exactly, they are simple stories written at a time when people had very little to no understanding of the natural world

[Moe_Syzlak]

Simply put, because religion has increasingly encroached into our political system, and policies are now being considered and implemented based entirely on SOMEONE ELSE

[Good Old Neon]

But isn't it s good thing when someone who has faith realizes this, is disgusted by it and stands up to decry it? That seems to be what most (all?) believers in this thread have done and you continue to criticize them because their beliefs aren't exactly the same as yours. If they are tearing down the destructive elements, who cares if they believe in a bearded man in the clouds?

 

It is a good thing, and most of my criticisms are not aimed at anyone in particular on this board. I admit, I

[caliber66]

I find it interesting that TheMaker and I are charged with acting condescending and mean-spirited by some of the same folks who have no problem calling us (and others) douchbags and pricks.

I call both of you condescending and mean-spirited, based on the content of your posts, which are both condescending and mean-spirited. I don't believe I have called either of you a douchebag or a prick, although I am not 100% certain of that. I don't know exactly what one has to do with the other. If you are acting condescending, is that excused because someone called you a name?

[Moe_Syzlak]

It is a good thing, and most of my criticisms are not aimed at anyone in particular on this board. I admit, I

[austrya]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do feel the condescending nature of certain posts.

 

There's nothing that anyone can say to get me to change my mind about my faith, but it is interesting to me to see where other people come from. I just don't like when people refer to me as a believer as stupid. It might not be directed at me personally, but it is directed at me. Know what I mean?

[TheMaker]

I just really don't get why people can't just believe whatever they want. It really blows my fucking mind.

 

And I can scarcely believe that some people are still able to issue such boldly naive statements. "Why can't I believe in the celestial teapot, dammit? :'( " Because it's baseless and more than a little stupid, that's why. The operative question is "why would somebody just believe whatever they want?" You're guilty of reframing this debate to fit some very convenient parameters, and that's just lazy. As has already been pointed out, you keep repeating yourself, and I keep answering your question.

 

This is what troubles me, many religious folks dismiss the downright evil aspects of the bible, attempt to write them off entirely, but then turn to the more agreeable parts as proof of, well, what? If we keep saying, no, that’s not true, that was never intended to be taken literally, nope, that part, that part is metaphor, no, that’s not really what god was intending to say, the bible/religion is not corrupt, man has corrupted it, etc – well, at the end of the day, what the hell are we left with? If it’s all metaphor, how can one also claim it is the word of a divine being? It’s either the word of god, or it’s entirely manmade. And if it is the word of god, why is it that god appears to have a totally archaic and misinformed understand of the nature of, well, pretty much everything? The house of cards that must be constructed and continually added to and kept aloft in order to keep this fa

[bobbob1313]

Can someone not believe in god and still be ok if other people do?

 

I think hate and murder would happen regardless of religion's existence. I also think all of the good things that cone from religion would happen even without religion.

 

I have to disagree that you've answered my question. How does someone beliving somethig insane affect you in any way? If they get sonethig out of itthen who cares if it's true or not?

[Spawn's dad]

fucking retarded

 

you may not like the god idea but you sure need something.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Can someone not believe in god and still be ok if other people do?

Yes, see my myriad of posts in this very thread. It is not the belief in God that I have a problem with (although intellectually I find it difficult to comprehend just as I'm sure those of faith find my lack of faith difficult to comprehend), but the disregard of the tyranny of the majority that many seem to have.

[watch me fall]

Can someone not believe in god and still be ok if other people do?

 

I have no problem with that.