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Good Old Neon

By Good Old Neon,
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MattZ

MattZ

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For those that voted exclusively on race, it is racism.

 

I'm very interested in seeing people's responses to my "white guy voting for McCain" question. I'm guessing we're going to see some grade A hypocrisy there.

 

I don't think it is hypocritical to suggest that your hypothetical "white guy voting for McCain" is motivated by fear or hatred of blacks. Or put another way, that the vote can be recharacterized as an anti-Obama vote. That is racist.

 

A vote for Obama because he is black is not an anti-White vote. It is not a vote against McCain because he is white.

 

I see an important difference there. In your example, the black guy votes for Obama because he's black. The white guy votes for McCain because Obama is black.

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LouieB

LouieB

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I added something to my last post....and now I am done with this.

 

I have no idea how I get drawn into this conversation which is clearly going nowhere. Someone other than me, with a clearer head needs to explain what racism is, I can't do it. ( Jews voting for a Jew in an election is NOT racism either.....or Irish voting for Irish or Italians voting for Italians.....it may be dumb on some occasions when the candidate isn't qualified, but it isn't racism either.....people get to make those individual decisions....)

 

LouieB

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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I don't think it is hypocritical to suggest that your hypothetical "white guy voting for McCain" is motivated by fear or hatred of blacks. Or put another way, that the vote can be recharacterized as an anti-Obama vote. That is racist.

 

A vote for Obama because he is black is not an anti-White vote. It is not a vote against McCain because he is white.

 

I see an important difference there. In your example, the black guy votes for Obama because he's black. The white guy votes for McCain because Obama is black.

 

I don't think that is at all fair.

 

I mean, honestly, what I'm getting out of this is that the same action by a black man and a white man aren't going to be judged the same because we're more willing to give one of them the benefit of the doubt. That's completely unfair.

 

I just don't see how we can applaud one group for blindly voting for the guy who is superficially the same as them (Even though as a Harvard educated millionaire senator, can anyone really say Obama is in touch with the vast majority of the black population?) and then call the other group backward's and closeminded for doing the same thing.

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MattZ

MattZ

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I don't think that is at all fair.

 

I mean, honestly, what I'm getting out of this is that the same action by a black man and a white man aren't going to be judged the same because we're more willing to give one of them the benefit of the doubt. That's completely unfair.

 

I am not sure what isn't fair about it. If you want to suggest that race based actions of any kind are inappropriate, that's fine. At the same time, you said you were interested to hear responses to your point about the white guy voting for McCain. As I said, a black guy votes for Obama because he's black. A white guy votes for McCain because Obama is black. That is a crucial difference. Its simply not the same action, as you continue to suggest. You may think it's inapproriate, but they are not the same thing. And I dont think it's fair for you to equate them.

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MattZ

MattZ

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Also, bobbob, I am not giving either the white guy or the black guy, the benefit of the doubt in your example. I assume they are both solely motivated by race in this hypothetical discussion. I don't think all race-based decisions are racist.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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I am not sure what isn't fair about it. If you want to suggest that race based actions of any kind are inappropriate, that's fine. At the same time, you said you were interested to hear responses to your point about the white guy voting for McCain. As I said, a black guy votes for Obama because he's black. A white guy votes for McCain because Obama is black. That is a crucial difference. You may think it's inapproriate, but they are not the same thing. And I dont think it's fair for you to equate them.

 

You twisted the question, though. Why is someone who votes for Obama because he's black not assumed to have voted 'against' the white guy, but the opposite is? That is, to me, completely unfair, because it was not implied in the question.

 

I mean, honestly, this makes me feel a little bit sick because I just can't comprehend how it can be a good thing to vote strictly based on race, either for or against. That to me, as much as anything, proves that racism is still alive and well in our country, and that it's only become unacceptable for a certain part of the population to be vocal about it.

 

Racism is wrong no matter who it is. If you want to try to justify it away by saying "Well, this one group is allowed to be racist" then, in my eyes, you are justifying all racism away.

 

Yes. I think you people are having a ridiculous conversation here.

 

ok.

 

Care to explain why?

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LouieB

LouieB

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I voted against all Irish judges because I'm racist against Irish people.

Fuckin Bigot!!! :lol :lol

 

Back on the real subject, even though I said I was done.....the fact African Americans came out to vote for Barack as opposed to coming out for John Kerry does not mean they are racist....sorry....I voted for both Kerry and Obama, which means I am a bigot against Republicans I suppose.....

 

LouieB

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EL the Famous

EL the Famous

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:stunned I am totally confused.....because actually they are. To disassociate this election from history and what it means to those who see history in racial/political terms just isn't connecting with what is going on. So that you don't think I am being a douchebag or arrogant prick (not just you), but do you know and or work with African Americans? If so just ask one. Coming from me (being a half brain dead white old white guy) this doesn't maybe mean much, but to your (and this goes for bobbob too) non-white associates it means tons.

 

ugh. you are confusing my (and perhaps bobob's, Matt's, Gary's, etc) priortization (or is it de-priortization?) w/ absolute disassociation. yes, i both work with, know and call several african-americans good friends...but what does that have to do w/ anything?! again, i don't recall telling anybody that there is no historical relevance or even that an african-american shouldn't take pride in this election.

 

plus, please see my last post, outside of doing so in jest...i don't refer to any of those aquaintances as my 'black friend' or my 'black co-worker' any more than they refer to me as their 'white friend'. i see and know that they're black, but it doesn't define them to me or influence why i associate with them.

 

finally, i really do see voting for someone for an elected office solely or maybe even predominantly on the basis of their race (or sex or religion or sexual preference) is at least some sort of 'ism' and find it counterproductive to any notion of equality. that it's a factor? sure, that's fine...but that it at least has the possibility to blind you to their ability to address issues that affect and govern us all.

 

lou, i respect you and the wisdom you bring to me via your experieinces...however, to paint me or even more so, bobob, as out of touch in regards to race...you are (respectfully) so, so off base.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Also, bobbob, I am not giving either the white guy or the black guy, the benefit of the doubt in your example. I assume they are both solely motivated by race in this hypothetical discussion. I don't think all race-based decisions are racist.

 

Well, you are.

 

You assume the black guy votes for Obama, while the white guy votes against Obama. That's not what the question is...

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Sure - everyone's got their own convoluted way of saying 'race shouldn't be the #1 factor when it comes to voting.'

 

I'm not sure that's the discussion we're having, and I'm not sure I agree with your point either way.

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MattZ

MattZ

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Racism is wrong no matter who it is. If you want to try to justify it away by saying "Well, this one group is allowed to be racist" then, in my eyes, you are justifying all racism away.

 

Now you're twisting what I am saying. I am not justifying racism. I just don't think it is racist. I dont think the hypothetical black man voting for Obama because he is black is casting an Anti-White vote. I just don't. If you do, fine, we disagree. I don't think all race-based actions are racist. I also don't think affirmative action is racist. Some people do. Do you? In that situation, I can understand the argument (even if I don't agree with it). The minority student gets in at the expense of the hypothetically just as qualified white student. In an election, I just don't see that same dynamic. I think people were voting FOR Obama, not AGAINST McCain, and that's an important difference in my mind.

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MattZ

MattZ

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Well, you are.

 

You assume the black guy votes for Obama, while the white guy votes against Obama. That's not what the question is...

 

Yes, bobbob, if I misunderstood your question, then you are right. The black guy who casts an anti-white vote is just as bad as the white guy who casts an anti-black vote.

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LouieB

LouieB

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lou, i respect you and the wisdom you bring to me via your experieinces...however, to paint me or even more so, bobob, as out of touch in regards to race...you are (respectfully) so, so off base.
well by siding with bobbob and against me is really not doing yourself a service either. I am NOT condoning voting for someone simply because he or she is something (however look at Hillary supporters who voted for McCain, what was THAT about) may appear wrong, but it is not racism. Not allowing someone to vote for someone who is African American (or letting them vote at all) IS racism. I am not saying you are out of touch, but you could simply say....voting for someone because they are of one ethnic group or another isn't right. Don't you think I agree with that? Yes I do!!! I religiously vote against the member of the tribe Bernie Stone, my alderman, not because he is Jewish and I am Jewish, but because he is an asshole. Did I vote for an Asian in the aldermanic race this last time because I think Asians are better than Jews? No. Do Jews vote for Jews because they are Jewish? Yes. Is it smart? No!! Is it racist?? No! BUT BUT BUT, voting for Bernie Epton (a Republican) as opposed to Harold Washington (Black Democrate and first black mayor of Chicago) now THAT WAS RACIST. But then again you had to be there to understand why it was. The that race was largely about race, not ideology.

 

See the difference or not?

 

LouieB

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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I guess I'm just not going to be able to see how voting solely based on race isn't an inherently negative thing. And I certainly don't see how it can be applauded like Louie does.

 

I guess it's just another generational thing. Since, as I've said a few times, race doesn't matter for my generation as much, to many including me, the idea of voting solely based on race no matter what simply can't be a good thing.

 

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

 

Something like that.

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