The Big 3

[MrRain422]

It's just that it's really easy to say that you'd be okay with losing your job, but it's hard to believe that you'll really be that okay with it if it actually happens. And assuming that you're in a position where you can survive for a while when you're out of work, well, it still misses the point that a lot of people won't be.

[MattZ]

Not to mention, you are taking quite a leap of faith when you say that "people should just go find a job." If the Big 3 go under, those are lost jobs. Jobs the economy doesn't have any more. You continue to advocate for policies that would likely cause more layoffs in more industries, if not more bankruptcieis, resulting in more jobs lost. And a more hostile environment for business to flourish, resulting in less investment, and fewer opportunties to hire.

 

In other words, my biggest problem with a lot of what you say is that many of your assumptions are based in the old world order, and there's no way to predict what the new world order you demand will look like. People may not be able to simply go out and get a new job. And this is all self-perpetuating, and in an interconnected economy, quite possibly devastating for a generation if not more.

[MrRain422]

I've been looking for a job since July. And trust me, I've been looking really hard. There just aren't a lot jobs out there compared to the number of people out there competing for them.

[Good Old Neon]

In other words, my biggest problem with a lot of what you say is that many of your assumptions are based in the old world order, and there's no way to predict what the new world order you demand will look like. People may not be able to simply go out and get a new job. And this is all self-perpetuating, and in an interconnected economy, quite possibly devastating for a generation if not more.

 

PANTHER in 3...2...1

[Good Old Neon]

I guess my issue with the bailout is, ok, we cater to every Big Three

[ZenLunatic]

It's just that it's really easy to say that you'd be okay with losing your job, but it's hard to believe that you'll really be that okay with it if it actually happens. And assuming that you're in a position where you can survive for a while when you're out of work, well, it still misses the point that a lot of people won't be.

 

Well we as a government can help with unemployment like what Bush signed today. We can also try to create new jobs through tax relief on companies starting out. We can spend money on infrastructure of an energy plan to create new jobs. There's alot we can do, but what we cant do is support failing businesses with bad models. Someone will be able to make the car companies work, it may not be the existing people, but someone will.

 

Well whose fault is it if you create a life where a job loss means devastation? My life would change alot if I lost my job, but I know I could get by. People will get through this. Change is scary, I know, but we need it. The way we where living wasnt substainable. We need to get to a more real economy.

 

I guess if people cant be flexible to the changes in their life, cause this is causing huge shifts, this will be a hard time for them.

[MattZ]

I guess my issue with the bailout is, ok, we cater to every Big Three

[bjorn_skurj]

I guess thats why you cant understand my stance.

I understand your stance just fine, thanks.

[MattZ]

We can spend money on infrastructure of an energy plan to create new jobs.

 

If the Big 3 lead the charge toward energy independence, isnt the govt doing exactly what you say above?

[MrRain422]

Well whose fault is it if you create a life where a job loss means devastation?

 

That's all there is to it? Just choosing to create a life where I'm financially solvent regardless of my work situation? Wow, I've been going about this all wrong.

[ZenLunatic]

Not to mention, you are taking quite a leap of faith when you say that "people should just go find a job." If the Big 3 go under, those are lost jobs. Jobs the economy doesn't have any more. You continue to advocate for policies that would likely cause more layoffs in more industries, if not more bankruptcieis, resulting in more jobs lost. And a more hostile environment for business to flourish, resulting in less investment, and fewer opportunties to hire.

 

In other words, my biggest problem with a lot of what you say is that many of your assumptions are based in the old world order, and there's no way to predict what the new world order you demand will look like. People may not be able to simply go out and get a new job. And this is all self-perpetuating, and in an interconnected economy, quite possibly devastating for a generation if not more.

 

 

Some people wont find jobs, some people will. I'm not saying I will ever find a job or everyone would. We are headed in new territory, so what, dont be scared. I am optimistic in that we will find our way out.

 

We just cant support an industry just so a group of people can have their jobs safe. Its a drain on the whole country. The failure of the auto industry will not topple this country. Either the foreign car companies will take over or a new US company will emerge.

[MrRain422]

It's not really about "fault" anyway. I think you're fundamentally disregarding reality if you think that most people really have a choice about it, but even if someone is completely at fault for their own problems, I still think it's wrong to just let people's lives fall apart.

 

Also, a failing auto industry will bring down other segments of the economy as well. What about their suppliers? What about the people in service industries whose customers work in the auto industry? What about the cities whose tax bases depend on the industry and those who work for them?

 

What I'm saying is, please PM me your address so I can tell all my family and friends where to go to live once all of southeastern Michigan is homeless and broke.

[MattZ]

We just cant support an industry just so a group of people can have their jobs safe. Its a drain on the whole country.

 

Wait, you just advocated that government spend money on infrastructure/energy because this will create jobs, right?

[Good Old Neon]

No one is advocating that we cater to the Big 3's every desire. The goal, I suppose, is that people who know a lot more than I/we do, come up with a proposed solution where money is injected, certain conditions are imposed, or a merger is encouraged, or certain concessions are made by the unions with prodding from the govt, etc.

 

In light of recent events, insofar as the market/economy is concerned, I

[MrRain422]

Okay, I think maybe I just got a little melodramatic, but ZenLunatic, I really think you're downplaying how big of a deal this would be big time. Yeah, bailing out the industry would be a drain on the country, but letting it fail would also be a huge hit on the economy. You don't seem to understand that part of the equation.

[ZenLunatic]

It's not really about "fault" anyway. I think you're fundamentally disregarding reality if you think that most people really have a choice about it, but even if someone is completely at fault for their own problems, I still think it's wrong to just let people's lives fall apart.

 

 

The life you live is completely your own making, you have to take all responsibilities for it. Your happiness is a choice. The government is just not supporting a flawed system that people were a part of. Its a shame that many hardworking people are victims to this, but these things are a part of life. If you believe in yourself you will still have a good life, just not the way you imagined it.

[cryptique]

You're fine with it, but what are the prospects of it actually happening? There are tens of thousands of people who would be guaranteed to lose their jobs, healthcare, pensions, etc if these companies go under.

Yes, but there's no point in preserving those jobs if they're no longer part of the industry's success. At this point, it's hard to argue that they are (and quite easy, in fact, to argue that they're exactly the opposite).

 

I understand wanting to save as many jobs as possible, but sometimes industries die. The steel industry basically died, and the country survived. The dot-com boom died and thousands of jobs died with it -- we're still here.

 

Tough times happen. It's insanity, though, to prop up an industry that's no longer viable just to keep the unemployment numbers down. It sucks, but it's reality.

 

I really hope there's a way to keep the automakers going, but after living in this area for nearly ten years and watching the industry fairly closely all that time (and not exactly being oblivious to it before that), I no longer trust that these companies are able to change their processes and products in the radical manner required for them to survive. I just don't see it happening, no matter how many billions you throw at them.

 

It's not like these latest developments were completely unforeseen -- it's been obvious for years that the automakers were crippled by unrealistic union contracts, tone-deaf product strategy, poor quality, inept leadership, and on and on and on -- and that one major shock to the economy could bring the whole house of cards down. Well, it's finally happened. Nobody should be surprised by this.

 

I'm still not been convinced that a bailout is a good idea because the culture of these companies is so resistant to constructive change, and the union is so oblivious to its own role in the automakers' downfall, that I don't think they'd know how to use the bailout money to save themselves, and the most we'd do is delay their collapse for a while.

 

Also, a failing auto industry will bring down other segments of the economy as well. What about their suppliers? What about the people in service industries whose customers work in the auto industry? What about the cities whose tax bases depend on the industry and those who work for them?

I hate to say it, but it sucks to be them. I know that sounds callous, but nobody wins if we keep this particular patient on life support long past its viability. Out of this calamity will come new opportunities. There will be considerable pain, but people will recover and move on. It's happened before; it'll happen again.

 

Honestly, I'm growing a bit fatigued by all the "what about all the jobs?" hand-wringing. Have some faith in the ability of the American people to find a way through, and stop trying to be their nanny. Aren't we supposed to be a hardy bunch that always gets up after we're knocked down?

[MrRain422]

The life you live is completely your own making, you have to take all responsibilities for it. Your happiness is a choice. The government is just not supporting a flawed system that people were a part of. Its a shame that many hardworking people are victims to this, but these things are a part of life. If you believe in yourself you will still have a good life, just not the way you imagined it.

 

I'm not talking about my happiness, I'm talking about my ability to pay rent next month.

 

Also, this is a completely idiotic point of view. Everyone's lives are intertwined, and people's lives are and always will be impacted by the decisions of other people.

[Good Old Neon]

Okay, I think maybe I just got a little melodramatic, but ZenLunatic, I really think you're downplaying how big of a deal this would be big time. Yeah, bailing out the industry would be a drain on the country, but letting it fail would also be a huge hit on the economy. You don't seem to understand that part of the equation.

 

Or we could end up with both, a scorched economy and the death of the US auto industry

[MrRain422]

Yes, but there's no point in preserving those jobs if they're no longer part of the industry's success. At this point, it's hard to argue that they are (and quite easy, in fact, to argue that they're exactly the opposite).

 

I understand wanting to save as many jobs as possible, but sometimes industries die. The steel industry basically died, and the country survived. The dot-com boom died and thousands of jobs died with it -- we're still here.

 

Tough times happen. It's insanity, though, to prop up an industry that's no longer viable just to keep the unemployment numbers down. It sucks, but it's reality.

 

I really hope there's a way to keep the automakers going, but after living in this area for nearly ten years and watching the industry fairly closely all that time (and not exactly being oblivious to it before that), I no longer trust that these companies are able to change their processes and products in the radical manner required for them to survive. I just don't see it happening, no matter how many billions you throw at them.

 

It's not like these latest developments were completely unforeseen -- it's been obvious for years that the automakers were crippled by unrealistic union contracts, tone-deaf product strategy, poor quality, inept leadership, and on and on and on -- and that one major shock to the economy could bring the whole house of cards down. Well, it's finally happened. Nobody should be surprised by this.

 

I'm still not been convinced that a bailout is a good idea because the culture of these companies is so resistant to constructive change, and the union is so oblivious to its own role in the automakers' downfall, that I don't think they'd know how to use the bailout money to save themselves, and the most we'd do is delay their collapse for a while.

 

 

I hate to say it, but it sucks to be them. I know that sounds callous, but nobody wins if we keep this particular patient on life support long past its viability. Out of this calamity will come new opportunities. There will be considerable pain, but people will recover and move on. It's happened before; it'll happen again.

 

Honestly, I'm growing a bit fatigued by all the "what about all the jobs?" hand-wringing. Have some faith in the ability of the American people to find a way through, and stop trying to be their nanny. Aren't we supposed to be a hardy bunch that always gets up after we're knocked down?

 

I have no problem with anything you're saying here. I'm not totally sold on the bailout either to be honest with you. I just can't handle ZenLunatic's position that people losing their jobs isn't important and that everything will be just fine so long as people don't let it bother them and just go out there and get another job, and that if anyone really hurts in this economy it's their own fault.

[ZenLunatic]

Wait, you just advocated that government spend money on infrastructure/energy because this will create jobs, right?

 

 

Yeah I actually did. I want an energy plan that involves renewable sources. I think this is the future. I think we could spend money there if anywhere. Of course this would mean we cant spend on other things.

[ZenLunatic]

I'm not talking about my happiness, I'm talking about my ability to pay rent next month.

 

Also, this is a completely idiotic point of view. Everyone's lives are intertwined, and people's lives are and always will be impacted by the decisions of other people.

 

We all effect one another, but how you handle what happens in your life it is soley on you. You cant blame anyone for the way your life turned out but yourself or you'll never understand.

 

Maybe you need to get a smaller place. Friends and family will help out.

[Edie]

In actuality, the "crisis" that has hit the big three hit the crisis point over the summer. Before that, they were doing OK -- restructuring and retooling for more fuel efficient cars -- and not in this severe cash flow position they are in now (GM and Chrysler are worse off than Ford right now). The double punch of the fuel prices then the credit crunch has reduced the number of new cars forecast to be sold this year from 15+M to 11M -- nearly 1/3 fewer.

 

That's why they are asking for low cost loans -- to get them through the first Q of next year (while making huge cuts -- Chrysler cut another 5K jobs with more to follow from the others). I agree that the UAW has to give here too.

 

Anyway, deflation is a huge worry now. Let's say that if one of the big three decided to sell the land their offices are on and lease them back. The value of the property isn't enough now to do that. Same with selling off GMAC (which they would have to reduce their share of it to less than 33% in order to gain bank status BTW) -- they can't get much for it. And raising money on the private market just isn't possible right now. Who would have believed that a scant 6-12 months ago....

[MrRain422]

We all effect one another, but how you handle what happens in your life it is soley on you. You cant blame anyone for the way your life turned out but yourself or you'll never understand.

 

Maybe you need to get a smaller place. Friends and family will help out.

 

My friends and family can't help out if they're all out of work too. Nice of you to make that offer on their behalf though.

 

I'm not blaming anyone. You blamed me (and countless others) for not having saved up enough money to be unemployed indefinitely, as if it's as easy as just deciding to have that money.

[explodo]

I know that sounds callous, but nobody wins if we keep this particular patient on life support long past its viability. Out of this calamity will come new opportunities. There will be considerable pain, but people will recover and move on. It's happened before; it'll happen again.

As evidence, I would have cited Michael Schiavo.