The Doors

[HungryHippo]

I know, I know...most of you hate the Doors but I know a couple of you dig them. I think I started a thread about them a while back but I can't find it. anyways, anyone check out this new live record? while its interesting based on the fact that its an early recording and the sound quality is pretty good, considering it was recorded on 4-track soundboard, there's a very shady story behind its release. read this:

Live at the Matrix 1967- Wikipedia

 

also, here's a review from an Amazon user which explains things a bit better than the Wiki entry- (Customer Review):

 

The Doors and Warner Music Group issued a press release to promote this CD, stating: "Restored and carefully mastered from first generation tapes acquired by Elektra Records and The Doors 40 years ago, these historic shows never sounded better."

 

However, at least 4 tracks here were sourced from 3rd generation or higher bootlegs. The remaining songs were mastered from an edited 2nd generation 1/4" reel to reel copy of a cassette dub made from the master reels.

 

Neither the Doors, nor their corporate record label Warner Music Group (aka the Rhino and Elektra imprints) own the original master recordings.

 

The master tapes are owned by Peter Abram, who had the foresight to record the band at The Matrix (with the band's permission)--more than two years before Elektra and Paul Rothchild got around to recording The Doors in a live setting at The Aquarius theater in 1969.

 

These legendary 1967 live tapes were well engineered by the young Abram and find the rock band at the peak of their prowess as an improvisatory unit.

 

However, the tapes Warner Music Group has published on this 2 CD rip off are vastly inferior to the master tapes, brief samples of which are circulating on the Internet with Peter's permission for comparison purposes.

 

Some fans may choose to believe that Abram is being greedy by asking for cash for his tapes. However, The Doors manager Jeff Jampool has publicly stated the Doors' policy about acquiring live tapes is that they will only provide a small royalty based on sales.

 

According to Abram, he wasn't even approached to sell his tapes to the Doors for this release. And what about all those bootlegs on the market? According to Abram, all bootlegs derive from the missing first generation cassette copies in the Doors archive, which vanished in the 1970s.

 

The fans get a sonically subpar, incomplete product. The legality of this release is suspect since Peter owns the master tapes. Peter Abram receives zero money from this product, even though he owns the master sound recording. Meanwhile, your purchase of this material will make Warner Music Group and The Doors a little bit wealthier.

 

And this is the same rock band that recently sued itself for $5million dollars over issues of "integrity."

 

By the way, how much money was cover designer Stanley Mouse paid for his Matrix album cover art, while they guy that actually recorded the show--on his own nickel and made this cash cow possible for The Doors--doesn't even receive a credit as recording engineer in the liner notes?

[mountain bed]

Very innaresting HH. Was this the first time the band played in SF as a headliner? Cause it must come close to that time frame.

 

I think I've read where Abram recorded lots of stuff from The Matrix. If you've never heard it, there is an LP called Early Steppenwolf that was taken from there on 5/14/67. It's worth hearing for the 21 minute version of The Pusher that is very far out, as the kids say.

 

Thanks for the heads up. Imo though, if the original masters exist and they aren't used it probably shouldn't be commercially released.

[Analogman]

OK - Reader's Digest version......

 

A guy named Peter Abram taped the Doors at the Matrix on three different nights using his reel to teel equipment - with the band's permission. Audience for the bands instruments, soundboard for the vocals. One night was erased - so two complete shows exist and part of the erased show. He offers to sell the masters to the band back in the early 70s. Goes as far as sending first gen cassette copies to the band made on a cheap deck. No deal.

 

Sometime later, the cassettes are copied to reel to reel by the group. The cassette copies disappear from the Doors vaults and bootlegs of the recordings begin to show up in the early 80s.

 

In the late 90s / early 2000s Danny Sugarman - Doors manager at the time is trying to make a deal with Abram for the tapes. No final deal made.

 

2006 - Doors announce release of the Matrix show. Fans get pissed because the discs are not from Abram master tapes. Release is shelved.

 

2008 Jeff Jampool and Warner/Elektra/Rhino say "fuck Abram" and release this turd known as Live at The matrix - which is obviously made from the Abram > cassette > reels copies.

 

 

"Look, I know some of you are upset. (yes, SOME - NOT ALL).

 

Firs of all, I think it's important to remind everyone that The Doors' rules on the board need to be respected. if you cannot follow them or remain respectful, even if/when you are upset or not pleased with someone or something, you will be asked to leave.

 

And I don't think it's fair that the vocal minority completely overshadow what's happening with The Matrix release. I have received scores of congratulatory, laudatory and other types of "thank-you" notes about The Matrix release as well. So, clearly, a LOT of fans are thrilled, and also as clearly, there are different views, ALL of which I respect.

 

As for The Matrix, as I have said repeatedly, I do not have all the facts. I find it extremely helpful when you guys let me know stuff, and/or make me aware of things I may otherwise not know about, and I pretty much always try to check many of them out. That is what happened back in '06 when the issue of The Matrix was first raised - and I subsequently pulled it pending further investigation.

 

And yes, there were several serious concerns raised recently, much of which Rhino, Botnick, The Doors and I followed up on. This resulted in us actually changing four of the tracks that we had originally prepared for release. But NONE of us make decisions in a vacuum - not The Doors, not Botnick, not Rhino, and not me. We were very careful about how we proceeded - I mean, one can never be TOO careful, I guess, but we do our best. And, obviously, there are certain business issues I cannot talk about, and which do not belong on a fan chat board, so I am sorry that you are not privy to everything (then again, I don't think I'M privy to everything either, so, we're ALL a little off-base, probably).

 

One of the things I harped on with you guys in past weeks is to try and separate FACTS from CONCLUSIONS or GUESSES. This is what we must do as businesspeople and managers, so I am a little practiced at it. When we followed up on some of the claims and contentions that were made on the boards here, we could substantiate only a few, and completely debunked still others.

 

For instance, have any of you wondered why it is that Peter Abram has NEVER spoken up for himself or addressed this? The ONLY communication from Abram that a lot of you seem to be relying upon is coming from someone else who is NOT Peter Abram - this gentleman who purports to be "passing on" Peter Abram's words may be 100% legit, and he may not be - I don't know. I do not know this gentleman, and in fact, there IS no "gentleman" or person, just printed words typed into a chat room response, which, in fact may come from anywhere in the world. How do we know they represent the facts? How do we know they do NOT represent the facts? The answer is, we don't know. They may be genuine, they may be invented, but one thing is for sure - they ARE NOT FROM ABRAM. At least, they do not claim to be - they claim to be from an intermediary. Is this intermediary a duly appointed rep of Abram's? Is he not? Is he even a "he"? Is "he" a fan, masquerading as "someone in the know?" Again, we don't know.

 

DID Peter Abram sell bootleg copies of these tapes? I don't know. Did he sell them to someone else? I don't know. Were there other copies? Again, I don't know. I have heard from several people that bootlegs were sold from the masters, emanating form the San Francisco area, I have heard from others that Abram sold them, I have heard that he did not, I have heard all KINDS of stuff, and that's just in the last few years! Did Abram get screwed by someone back in the day? Did THE DOORS? I have heard this, too. Again, I don't know. I am pretty sure that The Doors DID pay a substantive amount to someone purporting to be a spokesperson for the recordings, and said person then disappeared and absconded with The Doors' money.

 

I am not saying this to "shake" anyone, to defend anyone else, or to change anyone's opinions - I am merely stating several in a long line of suppositions that people want us to rely on, and which we cannot.

 

Some of the recorded samples posted in the past few days DO seem to be of discernibly better quality than what we have released (hell, they're amazing). But, we released what Rhino had acquired. Botnick always said "first-generation tapes," or "first-generation copies," which to me are synonyms, and I even spent the better part of one whole posting talking about what that phrase may or may not mean. Again, we don't have all of the answers - just a lot of questions, many of which appear legitimate. And some of which do not.

 

We are attempting to do some further research on these better quality samples that have all of a sudden popped up. I will make you two promises:

 

1. We will research, and if we discover any substantive new information, I will let you know about it. We will also attempt to address some of your concerns regarding what exists, what does not exist, what may or may not be available, and what, if anything, we can/are able to do to address it;

 

2. If a markedly better copy emerges at some point and we are able to obtain it, I will attempt to make it available to you. I would especially love to find a master-quality recording of all four shows - I think that would be a really cool "limited-edition" mini-box for the hardcore fans and collectors. I would also discuss with Botnick and The Doors just leaving it "as-recorded," i.e. not re-sequencing it, but presenting it just like The Doors performed it, in that order. Obviously, I can be overridden by The Doors, Botnick, or Rhino, and The Doors' wishes will carry the day, but we all work well together as a team.

 

Look, of COURSE we want to please our fans, and ESPECIALLY our hardcore fans. You guys spread the word to everyone else, and without your support, we'd be much less of a musical force for the next generations. We want to do the right thing. We want to take care whomever deserves it, and we want the absolute best quality products out in the marketplace. So, of course we will investigate this, but personally, I am in the dark about what went on throughout the years, so I can only speak about 2003-onward. And I think some of YOU are in the dark, too - it's just going to be a process of finding out which of these claims and contentions are fact, and which are not. Never easy! And, while we're at it, are not some of YOU who are complaining also bootleggers? Do not some of you trade, circulate and in other ways "barter" recordings that are copyrighted, owned by The Doors, but never pay them? Are YOU without any sin here? Seems like SOME of you (not all of you) are living in all-glass houses. You're all "good guys" and we're "bad guys" because you perceive us to be doing something you don't like or approve of? I'd only ask from you the same forbearance, patience, understanding and support regarding the issues you've raised, as we give YOU regarding the issues of trading, selling and otherwise circulating tapes containing copyrighted performances you never sought permission for, paid for, or even gave us a vote on. And I have yet to see one cent in royalties from any of you for the purloined tapes you freely sell/barter/distribute - and some even attempt to do it under our own noses, right here in our home! Have you EVER heard me say one thing about it? No! I don't. I turn the other cheek. I understand, and I don't think you're being asses. I just think you're big fans, and so I am happy you're getting enjoyment from Doors music.

 

For now, we have what we have, and it has been released, in accordance with the wishes of The Doors, Botnick, Rhino, and me. A lot of people love it, some don't, some hate the very idea of us releasing anything less than the best quality in existence, and some don't care. Again, there are vastly differing views. In addition to being The Doors' manager, I'm an audiophile personally, so if there ARE existing obtainable master tapes of a better quality that we can release - and that the fans want, of course I'm going to explore that, for BOTH reasons!

 

So, for now, the bottom line is that we will research and look into much of what has been raised. In the meantime, as always, anyone is free to buy this release, or not buy it, according to each individual's wishes. It's only rock 'n roll here, folks, not nuclear war.

 

I'll let you know what we find out pending further investigation."

__________________

Thanks - Jeff

Jeff Jampol

The Doors Music Co.

Los Angeles, CA

[remphish1]

I like the Doors. I always said if I can go back to the 60's and see one concert it would be the Doors!

[stooka]

After listening, it's clear that some form of notification should have been present on the cover to let consumers know that the quality of sound is not as vibrant as one would expect from a major label release. That being said, the performance is a pleasure to listen to (as long as the volume isn't up very high).

[HungryHippo]

Jampol denied knowing who Abram was. he then contradicted himself a week or 2 later when he said he had known who Abram was for years. here are his 2 posts showing this. sorry, I can't cite the source as he deleted the thread where he posted these:

 

So, if what Danny posted is accurate - and I have no reason to doubt it - then that brings us up to 2002.

 

I came on board in 2003.

 

Neither Danny nor anyone at Elektra or Rhino ever mentioned anything from 2003 onward, so, this was presumably either a solved issue or a dead issue.

 

 

DID Peter Abram sell bootleg copies of these tapes? I don't know. Did he sell them to someone else? I don't know. Were there other copies? Again, I don't know. I have heard from several people that bootlegs were sold from the masters, emanating form the San Francisco area, I have heard from others that Abram sold them, I have heard that he did not, I have heard all KINDS of stuff, and that's just in the last few years! Did Abram get screwed by someone back in the day? Did THE DOORS? I have heard this, too. Again, I don't know.

 

so, he never knew him, yet he's known him for years, lol. I think it all boils down to the fact that the Doors did now want to pay for the masters. they claimed in the beginning that Paul Rothchild, the Doors' producer, recorded these shows. this was an interesting claim since Rothchild never recorded any Doors concert and the only one he happened to record was being recorded by someone else at the same time? as soon as the sound samples were posted, everyone knew that was a bogus claim. Abram made dubs of his reels for the band back in the 70's to entice them to purchase them for a live album release. as he made the dubs, he implemented some sort of sound compression device that gave the audio a fuzzy sound to prevent the Doors from releasing this without his permission. so, what happens? someone steals these dubs from the Doors archives, makes copies for everyone and their grandmother and, presto, you have THE widest circulating Doors boot on earth. then the Doors proceed to release these inferior sounding tapes to save some $. if it wasn't for Abram posting those sound samples on the internet, this would be a done deal.

 

btw, Jampol referred to all of us who posted those comments about Abram on Amazon as "terrorists" when we were the ones who helped him and Danny Sugerman, the previous Doors manager, get in contact with Abram back in '01-'02. as you can tell, this gets my blood boilin.

[Analogman]

It's a shame they are ripping people off. If I want this, I will just grab the boots - they are out there to snag.

[HungryHippo]

Very innaresting HH. Was this the first time the band played in SF as a headliner? Cause it must come close to that time frame.

 

I think I've read where Abram recorded lots of stuff from The Matrix. If you've never heard it, there is an LP called Early Steppenwolf that was taken from there on 5/14/67. It's worth hearing for the 21 minute version of The Pusher that is very far out, as the kids say.

 

Thanks for the heads up. Imo though, if the original masters exist and they aren't used it probably shouldn't be commercially released.

 

they played the Avalon Ballroom a few times which is in San Fransisco before the Matrix as headliners. if you have the Matrix boots, you'll notice the 2nd version of Who Do You Love sounds different than the rest of the Matrix songs. some say this was actually recorded at the Avalon and somehow got mixed into the Matrix tapes. there's a really good audience recording of 2 songs from the Avalon, Moonlight Drive and Backdoor Man, out there which were recorded a couple of days before the Matrix gigs.

 

I've never listened to Early Steppenwolf, but I've heard good things about it. I'm glad Peter Abram had the foresight to record these concerts for us, especially in such great quality.

[Littlebear]

It's impossible to not like the Doors once you heard Morrison Hotel.

[froggie]

> It's impossible to not like the Doors once you heard Morrison Hotel.

 

[Littlebear]

> It's impossible to not like the Doors once you heard Morrison Hotel.

 

 

[MrRain422]

false

[HungryHippo]

It's impossible to not like the Doors once you heard Full Circle.

 

I corrected one of your typos.

 

all kidding aside, that record's b-side, Tree Trunk, is a rockin' tune. kinda sounds like a Sky Blue Sky outtake.

 

edit-

[HungryHippo]

For those of you interested, there will be a deluxe version of The Doors' last album with Morrison, L.A. Woman, at the end of the year. The band discovered some amazing studio outtakes they'll be including with the set. Right now, I'm only aware of a cover of 'Money' and a 14 minute blues jam but I'm sure there are some more goodies which will be on there. Unfortunately, the elusive Paris Blues will not be on this release :-(

 

And, in more Doors news, the band has just secured an amazing quality recording from 1966 at the London Fog! This was before the band began their tenure at the Whisky-a-Go-Go and before they were signed to Elektra records. The bad news about this release is that the original owner had the entire performance on two reels but lost one of the reels a long time ago. The missing reel contains an early version of The End before Morrison had added the Oedipal section to it.

 

Needless to say, it's a great time to be a Doors fan!

[Analogman]

I use to own on that on 8-track - back in the last century.

[HungryHippo]

haha, nice. I have an old copy of it on vinyl with the transparent cover. Nothing beats the original sound of that album.

 

On a side note, L.A. Woman is listed as EKS-75011 in the Elektra catalog. The album was released in early 1971. Around the time of the album's release, Jim Morrison moved to an apartment, the one he died in, in Paris located in the Bastille. The Bastille's city/ zip code is 75011. Kind of weird, huh?

[Moss]

I remember doing my doors tour of LA many years ago, hitting Barney's and seeing where they recorded LA Woman. I was taking pictures of the building where they recorded LA woman with waiters staring at me. I can't imagine it was that odd of an event for people to be taking pictures of it but it sure felt like it.