Obama on Fiscal Responsibility

[John Smith]

Why don't the "schmoes" take a little responsibility as well? They also make too much money.

 

The schmoes, both union and non-union really have very little say when it comes to the direction of the company. Sure the union guys get paid well, but so do non-union carmakers employees and they are suffering crippling sales decreases too. Face it the problem with the American auto makers is the direction that all three companies have been getting from the top. GM

[John Smith]

People need to quit living beyond their means!!

 

This is amantra that needed to be sounded in the 1980's when credit rules were relaxed. Now that people are trying to pay off their debts it takes aways fromt he current economy and provides an additional hit. On an individual level it makes perfect sense, on a macro level it damages the economy further. Though I do think your friend buying a motorcycle on credit while unemployed is a bit much. I would have to hear his full story though.

[austrya]

I thought we had to do the opposite!

 

You can still lived within your means and stimulate the economy.

 

We own our own home, have 2 new cars, have 3 computers, 4 tv's (although one is the computer), we go on vacations, we shop, we go out to eat, we have iPods, the kids play club sports, etc. The only difference between us and most americans is that the only debt we have, is our house and our cars. And trust me, my husband makes less than $70K a year and I'm a stay at home mom and we have 4 kids. If he lost his job today and didn't find another, we'd have enough in the bank to maintain our lifestyle for another 8 months or so.

 

It can be done.

[JUDE]

Why do people need to quit living beyond their means?

What repercussions are there?

 

I have an acquaintance who has been

[John Smith]

You can still lived within your means and stimulate the economy.

 

We own our own home, have 2 new cars, have 3 computers, 4 tv's (although one is the computer), we go on vacations, we shop, we go out to eat, we have iPods, the kids play club sports, etc. The only difference between us and most americans is that the only debt we have, is our house and our cars. And trust me, my husband makes less than $70K a year and I'm a stay at home mom and we have 4 kids. If he lost his job today and didn't find another, we'd have enough in the bank to maintain our lifestyle for another 8 months or so.

 

It can be done.

 

Rememebr not everone is you though.

[Good Old Neon]

You can still lived within your means and stimulate the economy.

 

We own our own home, have 2 new cars, have 3 computers, 4 tv's (although one is the computer), we go on vacations, we shop, we go out to eat, we have iPods, the kids play club sports, etc. The only difference between us and most americans is that the only debt we have, is our house and our cars. And trust me, my husband makes less than $70K a year and I'm a stay at home mom and we have 4 kids. If he lost his job today and didn't find another, we'd have enough in the bank to maintain our lifestyle for another 8 months or so.

 

It can be done.

 

Damn, do you live in a milk carton and drive Boy Scout Pinewood Derby cars?

[austrya]

Damn, do you live in a milk carton and drive Boy Scout Pinewood Derby cars?

 

No, I live in a modest, 4 bed, 2.5 bath house that we built in 2005. I drive a 2008 Honda Pilot and my husband drives a 2007 Honda Civic.

 

We live in a small town about 25 miles south west of Ann Arbor.

[EL the Famous]

Though I do think your friend buying a motorcycle on credit while unemployed is a bit much. I would have to hear his full story though.

 

i don't. that's the stupidest fucking thing i've heard all week. she's right...jnick's right...jules is right...point is, we're all accountable. you said yourself that the workers/unions have very little say in how their companys are run and that may be true, but we (as individuals) do have 100% say in how we responsibly manage our personal finances, employed or otherwise.

 

seriously. i'm out of work right now and buying something completely unnecessary as a bike seems nuts...absolutely nuts. additionally, there are some great points in this thread, but it is so all over the place w/ where people are looking to point blame. again, it's all of us and we all have to try and figure it out.

 

yeah, that was a rant...but oh well.

[Elixir Sue]

Now that people are trying to pay off their debts it takes aways fromt he current economy and provides an additional hit.

If I didn't have such a high student loan payment every month, I'd be stimulating the hell out of the economy.

[austrya]

i don't. that's the stupidest fucking thing i've heard all week. she's right...jnick's right...jules is right...point is, we're all accountable. you said yourself that the workers/unions have very little say in how their companys are run and that may be true, but we (as individuals) do have 100% say in how we responsibly manage our personal finances, employed or otherwise.

 

seriously. i'm out of work right now and buying something completely unnecessary as a bike seems nuts...absolutely nuts. additionally, there are some great points in this thread, but it is so all over the place w/ where people are looking to point blame. again, it's all of us and we all have to try and figure it out.

 

yeah, that was a rant...but oh well.

 

I should also point out that his family also doesn't have any kid of health insurance or life insurance right now either.

[EL the Famous]

I should also point out that his family also doesn't have any kid of health insurance or life insurance right now either.

 

oi. nice priorities, jackass.

[bjorn_skurj]

I thought we had to do the opposite!

That's the problem. For the economy to recover, people have to start spending money again, but people either have no money because they got no job, or they're scared shitless they're going to get laid off, so they rein in their spending. Then many people see a disconnect between what they feel they have to do and what the government is doing, so they get angry.

[Good Old Neon]

I should also point out that his family also doesn't have any kid of health insurance or life insurance right now either.

 

Well sure, but with that sweet bike I bet he

[EL the Famous]

edgy

[Good Old Neon]

No, I live in a modest, 4 bed, 2.5 bath house that we built in 2005. I drive a 2008 Honda Pilot and my husband drives a 2007 Honda Civic.

 

We live in a small town about 25 miles south west of Ann Arbor.

 

A spread like that would set you back a cool 500+ G here on the east coast, not including the cars.

 

We

[John Smith]

My platform:

1. Legalize it

2. Tax it

 

That

[EL the Famous]

Besides its an anecdotal story that we have to assume is true.

 

austrya = liar!

[austrya]

That

[John Smith]

No, he bought it and did not sell anything to get it.

 

He and his wife are the type who have to keep up with the Jones'. His best friend, who has a 6 figure salary, just went out and bought one, so he had to follow suit.

 

He's my ex-brother in law, so I know them quite well. I'm still friends with his wife, who is my ex's twin sister.

 

It's totally outrageous, even below the surface.

 

Well there we go. I say confiscate the bike, imprison the guy, and sell his wife and kids into indentured servitude.

 

Ok this guy did something totally ignorant and totally American. But who the F gives out loans to people with no income?

[austrya]

Well there we go. I say confiscate the bike, imprison the guy, and sell his wife and kids into indentured servitude.

 

Ok this guy did something totally ignorant and totally American. But who the F gives out loans to people with no income?

 

I wonder the same thing about the loan, especially now.

 

The only thing I wonder is if he took a loan out on his 401K to buy it. His 401K will let you borrow for any reason, you don't need to prove a hardship or medical reason or anything.

[EL the Famous]

But who the F gives out loans to people with no income?

 

unless a banker came to his door and offered him the $, i'd still say the larger part of the problem is the guy himself...or, at least, it illustrates that this is (and a lot of other instances of this banking mess we're in) a 50/50 split between irresponsible lenders/borrowers.

 

my point is that it isn't just the shadowy cabal of CEO's or whatever that has gotten us here. to continue that thinking will drive us further into this mess.

[futureage1]

Yes, and my point is that shareholders are not just hedge fund dudes with yachts and mansions. As I said, shareholders are also lots of Americans with 401k plans that invest in index funds. Indexes made up of the very financial companies that you are demanding go to zero. So understand that lots of panicked Americans who already lost half of their retirement last year, and 25% of their retirement this year, are going to lose (at a minimum, without considering collateral damage) another 10% of their retirement over night. If you think that an action like that is simply black and white, and doesn't cause more panic, and more hunkering down, and more layoffs, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Notwithstanding what you say, I don't "put my trust in the same people who got us here." Certainly not blindly. I am just not as willing as you are to believe that there's a simple solution here. All solutions -- even yours -- come with much peril and uncertainty. I don't get how you can be so certain that the unknown damage from nationalizing banks is better than the unknown damage of what Obama is or isn't doing.

 

Sweden's economy is the size of Ohio's economy. If you think that's the "exact model we should be following for recovery" then I don't know what to tell you.

 

What is better the whole country goes broke or the shareholders take it on the chin? Because that is where we are at. We have spent close to 2 trillion dollars already with no end in sight. You act like the senate and congress will run the banks, they won't. But the people they do get to run them will be well qualified and responsible to the American people not a board of about 12 major shareholders. So we keep letting Citi stock go in the toilet bringing down the entire market just so we can say our banks are privatized? Right that is working great. You obviously don't understand economics and if you think the banks shareholders have not been already wiped out then you simply do not know what you are talking about. Citi went from over $50 a share to below $1 a share. So you think people have not already been wiped out? Like I said, you seem not to be able to wrap your head around the fact this bailout bs is not for the benefit of the citizens but the CEOs who got us here. And the more they are exposed the more their arguments will not hold up, but I guess if you don't take economists like Krugman's word for it or T. Roosevelt's, then you have your mind made up. May your faith in the corrupt financial system bring you comfort and joy and many happy returns.

[MattZ]

What is better the whole country goes broke or the shareholders take it on the chin? Because that is where we are at.

 

Shareholders have been taking it on the chin. Shareholders will continue to take it on the chin (as they should). I never suggested they shouldn't. I suggested that nationalization wipes out the equity in EVERY bank. Citi, Bank of America, JPMorgan, etc. And that this will continue to drive the market down, and the effect of something like this, in any economy like ours, is unknowable. You have convinced yourself what the effects of a move like this would be. I still don't know why.

 

But the people they do get to run them will be well qualified and responsible to the American people not a board of about 12 major shareholders.

 

Why are you so sure of this? BEcause they will be "government" officials? With your own posts as evidence, you don't trust the government to manage this crisis. Why are you so sure that they would hire and employ well qualified and responsible people? Who are those people anyway? Do they even exist? Shouldn't these banks looking to remain as going concerns be hiring them now for survival?

 

You obviously don't understand economics and if you think the banks shareholders have not been already wiped out then you simply do not know what you are talking about. Citi went from over $50 a share to below $1 a share. So you think people have not already been wiped out?

 

Yes, Citi shareholders have been virtually wiped out. You are calling for nationalization of the ENTIRE banking system. That would wipe out the shareholers of Citi, JPMorgan, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, PNC Bank, State Street. I am the one that doesnt know what he's talking about? I am not even suggesting it's inappropriate. I am suggesting that we don't know what the collateral damage will be (other than an immediate 10% decline in the S&P -- this is the only FACT that has been stated in this back and forth. That is what these banks make up of the S&P. The market will decline, at a minimum, 10%.)

 

Like I said, you seem not to be able to wrap your head around the fact this bailout bs is not for the benefit of the citizens but the CEOs who got us here. And the more they are exposed the more their arguments will not hold up, but I guess if you don't take economists like Krugman's word for it or T. Roosevelt's, then you have your mind made up.

 

I can wrap my head around it. Trust me. Nowhere in this debate have I said that the banks should not be nationalized. Not once. All I have ever said is that there are other problems that a nationalization causes. Problems that I can't predict and you seem certain don't exist. I read Krugman and I respect Krugman and I often agree with Krugman. Krugman would not argue with a single thing I have said.

 

May your faith in the corrupt financial system bring you comfort and joy and many happy returns.

 

[EL the Famous]

it's all your fault, matt. have fun lighting your cigars w/ $100 bills while i can't afford to buy a new motorcycle. comfort and joy and many happy returns, fatcat.

[John Smith]

austrya = liar!

 

Not at all a reflection on austrya it is a refelction on this being the web.

 

I used to audit banks (community banks) and when an unemployed person comes in for a loan, any loan they are not getting it without showing an ability to pay. How do I know this from audits? Simple the banks have internal controls and standards