SBS and (The Album)...Inevitable Decline

[Dean Moriarty]

I was worried that their decline was in full steam because of SBS but I happen to love their new album. It is kind of a hard thing to realize that your favorite band for years is not your favorite anymore... But that's part of life. And that's ok.

 

I do agree with your comments about their live shows. I haven't been to one in a while. Ever since Nels came on board I feel like their setlist rarely varies and that I'm watching a franchise and not the band I loved years ago.

 

Let's face it, unless Wilco is the exception to the rule, but most bands or even scientists like Einstein have that magical 7-10 year zone of brilliance. My only hope is that if they ever feel that what they are doing is not exciting, they should step away. But then again, I'm not one to ask someone to put down a multi-million dollar franchise either.

 

You are right. I've become so accustomed to saying and feeling that Wilco is my favorite band. I've gotta let it go. Being There, Summerteeth, YHF and a Ghost is born are some of my favorite albums of all time and leave it at that.

[mtt_wojo]

I felt that since Being There to Ghost, Wilco were on a roll. There was nothing about their albums that made me cringe. I loved every new aspect and sound they were trying to achieve. Then there was the shock that came from Sky Blue Sky. There was no more sonic exploration/creativity that they had been known for. No more pushing the envelope. And that's fine. But starting with Sky Blue Sky (which I like very much now, despite three songs) they eased into playing it safe. And it was very shocking at the time.

 

Now, Wilco (The Album) starts off with a song that makes me cringe every time I hear the chorus. We get 'Wilco will love you baby' where we used to get something, I don't know, a bit more meaningful. Jeff's got the right to do away with the 'seriousness' of his words. But he's written other joke songs that are great. 'The Ruling Class' is hilarious. But it's got something. Jeff has written cute songs alongside his more serious work for his entire career. Wilco (The Song) is not the first time he's played down the importance of his words. I guess in the past he was being whimsical, even tongue in cheek, where as now he's playing up the laughs. I just don't like it.

 

In closing, I will say this. With Sky Blue Sky and W(TA), Wilco has taken some steps backwards from their previous work. Are they bad? Absolutely not. They are just not as solid as what came before. But at least with every album that comes out, there are still going to be songs that make me smile and glad to be a Wilco fan. Jeff is a great songwriter. I look forward to everything he does. Sometimes he misses the mark and other times he hits it out of the park.

[caliber66]

I don't know that it is. For a lot of people, a wider audience "makes" the music as lousy and less creative as if it were objectively garbage. A lot of fans project their identity or their emotions onto bands, whether they would articulate this or not:

 

Wilco = my emotions, my emotions are unique. After the band attracts a wider audience:

 

Wilco = my emotions and my boss's emotions and my dad's emotions? My emotions are no longer unique. -OR-

 

Wilco = my emotions, and my boss and dad are misusing these things that embody my spirit, and might be fooled into thinking they GET me! I simply cannot abide by their blasphemy, and will retaliate by telling them Wilco is lame.

 

If you've been around the boards a while (and you have), you'll see that this resentment and detachment comes up with every new studio album, usually manifest as, "the music sucks." That's not dismissive.

 

Of course, to many people the new music actually does suck, in which case they can either stay on the train and hope Wilco signs to American Recordings in 2035, or wait at the station and catch the next train.

Deciding that the reason OP feels the way he does because he doesn't like the wider audience - an opinion not expressed in the opening post or thereafter by OP - is dismissive, which is certainly not to say that some people don't fall victim to that mentality.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Deciding that the reason OP feels the way he does because he doesn't like the wider audience - an opinion not expressed in the opening post or thereafter by OP - is dismissive, which is certainly not to say that some people don't fall victim to that mentality.

 

Or mistake? I think it's natural to reply to a thread or conversation by saying, "I get what you're saying." I think it's equally natural to be wrong about that occasionally. Doesn't make it dismissive, it makes it conversational and empathetic - in spirit if not always in fact.

[caliber66]

It's simple really. Fans of little known but criticially lauded bands always feel betrayed when they move on to a wider audience. I know exactly where you're coming from here. You don't want to like them any more because the new audience is 'not worthy'. It's a kind of jealousy, resentment (towards the new fans), because the band is no longer in your private club anymore.

 

It's always been this way. You like making the discoveries and cherishing 'new' finds and the 'gatecrashers' just come and steal the magic. It was ever thus. I guarantee if your aunt come and tells you how she likes that 'You Never Know' song she heard on the radio you won't want to play it again.

 

Music snobs? Probably. But I wouldn't have it any other way. Atleast you can always say 'I saw them before they were famous'....

Dismissive.

 

"There's a simple explanation for how you feel, and I've diagnosed it!"

 

Seems like sarcastic, rather than sincere, agreement in this case.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Seems like sarcastic, rather than sincere, agreement in this case.

 

Assuming you know his intentions is...oh, what's the word?

[caliber66]

Intuition?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Deciding that the reason OP feels the way he does...an opinion not expressed in the opening post or thereafter by OP - is dismissive, which is certainly not to say that some people don't fall victim to that mentality.

[caliber66]

Bored at work today, are we?

[Dean Moriarty]

Bored at work today, are we?

 

I'm bored with life....that's why I'm on this board.

[Dude]

[tag]Insert awful pun about Wilco putting the Cline in Decline here[/tag]

[caliber66]

I'm bored with life....that's why I'm on this board.

Your troll is showing.

[Guest Speed Racer]

[tag]Insert awful pun about Wilco putting the Cline in Decline here[/tag]

 

The only way Wilco can rise from its ashes is to de-Cline.

[choo-choo-charlie]

There was no more sonic exploration/creativity that they had been known for. No more pushing the envelope. And that's fine.

 

If every Wilco album sounded the exact same, they'd be accused of not having enough sonic exploration/creativity. I don't understand how people confuse or don't understand the meaning of "creativity." For example:

 

 

• Wilco, 1995-1998: a band heavily using guitars, mandolins, banjos, fiddles and lap steel, with a little bit of keyboard/piano usage >>
   
  
• Wilco, 1999-2001: a band heavily using keyboards, mellotrons, synthesizers, etc. >>
   
  
• Wilco, 2002-2005: a band beginning a return to a more organic sound, using innovative isolation recording techniques in the studio, finding a good balance of the guitar-based and keyboard-based approach >>
   
  
• Wilco, 2006-Present: a band finding its groove and starting to gel as a unit on many levels in terms of live performance, making records, looking back through the group's history and creating an identity for the present and future...
   
  

 

To me, each of those progressions, the tours, albums and songs within them are nothing but an exploration of sound and the creative possibilities of music. If Wilco kept making YHF after YHF, would that be considered pushing the envelope? Or is pushing the envelope being brave enough to take risks with your music, try different approaches, and make the music that reflects who you are as an artist at that time?

 

To echo what some other posters have said: Wilco making music that you don't enjoy as much doesn't equate to a creative decline, and to make this assertion is fine (it's your opinion), but it's pretty damn tough to back up.

[Central Scrutinizer]

It had been hard for me to come to terms with the fact that Wilco is simply a band on the creattive decline.

 

Sky Blue Sky and (The Album) are indicative of the creative demise that we've all witnessed in many other bands in the past.

 

ie. The Replacements, The Grateful Dead, the Stones, and My Morning Jacket just to name a few.

 

While they still play great live, I find myself less pysched to see them live since the setlists are dominated by the newest lame material.

 

Is anybody else depressed by Wilco(The Decline) ?

 

Is a bounce back possible? I am doubtful unless Tweedy starts smoking weed again.

I think there's a parallel among economists and music critics. They both become so enamored with the past and future -- and spinning their own take on both, that they fail to live, or at least assess the current.

 

Past can be prelude, and an economy can be forecast based on past trends, and an artist's work compared against past efforts, with an eye for what to expect. But it's heaping a lot of analysis on what you have no control over it, and trying to put yourself in a position that you have it figured out. But trying to forecast people, creativity, muse, the nuts and bolts of a persons life that makes him/her wish to create are beyond your sideline pacing. The best stock market approach can be submarined by a sudden trend that has nothing to do with reasoned forecasts.

 

Don't like SBS or W(TA)? Fine. Are they in a creative vein that you don't like? Don't listen. But this whole "Tweedy needs angst" "Tweedy needs drugs" "Wilco needs inner turmoil" is of the same mindset as putting bugs in a mason jar and shaking it. It's not enjoying or not enjoying the result of the creation, it's seeking to entertain ones' self through some sort of personal impact, that you are groundless to judge.

[Livin' in New Orleans]

I am sorry if I came off as harsh, but those were my views. I just do not see how one could not enjoy Wilco (the Album) as a stand-alone work. I think that people say they don't enjoy it when they look at the other records by the band that they enjoy more, and they tend to get into a pattern of actually not liking it because it isn't YHF, AGIB, or ST... I mean some people may simply not enjoy it musically... but as a stand-alone work, it is pretty darn good music.

[dmait]

Ponch and wojo have just about nailed my thoughts completely. I've been thinking of the last two records in terms of Dylan's career. I started my serious Dylan exploration in the mid- to late- 80s and was able to cherry pick certain albums. I liked BOTT and Desire as much as Bringing It All Back Home. With so many great records to experience, it was easy to overlook the ones that didn't do anything for me without giving it much thought. Looking at it from my Wilco experience, where I've been on board nearly from the beginning, I am seeing what Dylan fans have gone through, for example, when he went electric or began his religious phase. Old fans jumped ship while new fans jumped on board. Similarly I'd think some early Red Hot Chili Peppers fans want nothing to do with the current incarnation.

 

I wonder if the Dylan fans who jumped ship with Gotta Serve returned with Jokerman - or did they find new bands to like and never return, like I did with Son Volt. I have returned to Ryan Adams after completely blowing him off after Rock and Roll. I haven't jumped ship with Wilco, nor will I, but I feel like I'm living through a Dylan-type transition, which is an oddly new phenomena for me. That's a testament for how much Wilco has meant to me.

 

To use a horrible stock chart analogy, Wilco had been in a nice long uptrend through AGIB and has been consolidating and in a narrow range ever since. Now we wait and see if it breaks up or down. I know, terrible.

[Beltmann]

I mean some people may simply not enjoy it musically... but as a stand-alone work, it is pretty darn good music.

I agree. I hear a shift in style and approach, but certainly not a decline. For me, the Wilco I like best is YHF or BT, but it's hard to listen to the last two and not recognize the creative ambition. The new music is exploring styles that I might personally have less interest in, but I have to concede that the band is at least being successful with those new styles. In other words, YHF hits the creative target for me, while W(TA) hits the creative target for other listeners.

[Livin' in New Orleans]

Exactly.. I mean there isn't a song on W(TA) that I don't enjoy...some more than others, but I enjoy them all. YHF is definitely what hits my target, though

[rwilson580]

I mean some people may simply not enjoy it musically... but as a stand-alone work, it is pretty darn good music.

 

I agree. I'm not sure it's in Jeffy Tweedy's DNA to make music that is not enjoyable. If you really, really cannot stand SBS or W(TA)...then, sure, it's time to move on. If you just believe, hmmm, don't like it quite as much as the masterpiece -- hang in there, maybe he'll hit it out of the park for you personally next time. Because I don't know how anyone can listen to either of these albums and believe that the guy has literally lost a step. He can still write melodies, hooks, wordplay that are as delicious as anyone has ever done it. The differences with these albums -- and pretty much each Wilco album -- lie in the arrangements. At least for me. And that's as much a matter of inclination as anything. Could the band have chosen to make (TA) sound more like YHF or AGIB? Why not? (But how sad would it have been if they'd made a conscious decision to do so?) To my ear, Summerteeth went further down the wrong road than (TA) did...and they rebounded with "the masterpiece."

 

To me, listening to these albums (where SBS works on all levels for me, The Album not so much), the man's talent is clearly intact. So he might well make "your album" next time. If he feels like it.

[Livin' in New Orleans]

I agree. I'm not sure it's in Jeffy Tweedy's DNA to make music that is not enjoyable. If you really, really cannot stand SBS or W(TA)...then, sure, it's time to move on. If you just believe, hmmm, don't like it quite as much as the masterpiece -- hang in there, maybe he'll hit it out of the park for you personally next time. Because I don't know how anyone can listen to either of these albums and believe that the guy has literally lost a step. He can still write melodies, hooks, wordplay that are as delicious as anyone has ever done it. The differences with these albums -- and pretty much each Wilco album -- lie in the arrangements. At least for me. And that's as much a matter of inclination as anything. Could the band have chosen to make (TA) sound more like YHF or AGIB? Why not? (But how sad would it have been if they'd made a conscious decision to do so?) To my ear, Summerteeth went further down the wrong road than (TA) did...and they rebounded with "the masterpiece."

 

To me, listening to these albums (where SBS works on all levels for me, The Album not so much), the man's talent is clearly intact. So he might well make "your album" next time. If he feels like it.

 

I do not deny it, I refer to YHF as the masterpiece, but who says that a band can't make great music besides their "magnum opus." Besides, who knows what could be in the works... this band has six ridiculously talented and imaginative musicians, with the best equipment available... we can expect more to come, and it could be truly awesome

[Ghost of Electricity]

There's also the issue of age at work here. Speaking from personal experience, and having observed the same in others i know, the music which means the most is the stuff that i was listening to or "discovered" between the ages of about 18 and 30. After that you are well on the road to codgery and get stubborn. Your tastes codify. And so certain things get condemned because they aren't listened to at the right time. this isn't to say that you can't discover and enjoy new music beyond the age of 30 (far from it) but that music tends to be by artists who are totally new: i.e., someone you have no initial expectations of and therefor you are able to listen to it with a completely open mind.

 

This is not the case when you get into Wilco's position. I know what Wilco means to me and i want it (them, he) to keep meaning it. But it can't, simply because the impression has already been made.

 

Which leaves Tweedy and company with two options: to fret about it and try to please, nay, to pander to their fans (which would be exceedingly lame) or to just say screw it and do whatever they want to do, which is what they do do and pretty much have always done. which is how it should be. Disappointing to the old timers.

[kencoomerislockedinmybasement]

There's also the issue of age at work here. Speaking from personal experience, and having observed the same in others i know, the music which means the most is the stuff that i was listening to or "discovered" between the ages of about 18 and 30. After that you are well on the road to codgery and get stubborn. Your tastes codify. And so certain things get condemned because they aren't listened to at the right time. this isn't to say that you can't discover and enjoy new music beyond the age of 30 (far from it) but that music tends to be by artists who are totally new: i.e., someone you have no initial expectations of and therefor you are able to listen to it with a completely open mind.

 

This is not the case when you get into Wilco's position. I know what Wilco means to me and i want it (them, he) to keep meaning it. But it can't, simply because the impression has already been made.

 

Which leaves Tweedy and company with two options: to fret about it and try to please, nay, to pander to their fans (which would be exceedingly lame) or to just say screw it and do whatever they want to do, which is what they do do and pretty much have always done. which is how it should be. Disappointing to the old timers.

 

Well said. They don't make the same record twice. People evolve. Bands and fans.

 

The new record made me appreciate SBS more than I originally had. It has a poetic quality (as do its predecessors) that I don't find much of in the new one.

 

Live, they're an absolute machine right now. Relax. Enjoy.

[ponch1028]

There's also the issue of age at work here. Speaking from personal experience, and having observed the same in others i know, the music which means the most is the stuff that i was listening to or "discovered" between the ages of about 18 and 30. After that you are well on the road to codgery and get stubborn. Your tastes codify. And so certain things get condemned because they aren't listened to at the right time. this isn't to say that you can't discover and enjoy new music beyond the age of 30 (far from it) but that music tends to be by artists who are totally new: i.e., someone you have no initial expectations of and therefor you are able to listen to it with a completely open mind.

 

This is not the case when you get into Wilco's position. I know what Wilco means to me and i want it (them, he) to keep meaning it. But it can't, simply because the impression has already been made.

 

Which leaves Tweedy and company with two options: to fret about it and try to please, nay, to pander to their fans (which would be exceedingly lame) or to just say screw it and do whatever they want to do, which is what they do do and pretty much have always done. which is how it should be. Disappointing to the old timers.

 

 

I meant to address the issue of time in my original post but was interrupted by my work (how rude). In the end, despite the immense talent that Jeff and company have demonstrated over the years in their output and live shows, I think Wilco will always hold some special place in my pantheon of music because so much of their musical and creative arc has closely mirrored my own life's Trajectory.

 

I am younger than Jeff and company, and my family life isn't as long as his and sue's and their boys, but as a family man with two young daughters, I eventually came to place in life where, just like Jeff and perhaps also Sue, needed some music that wasn't as dark and unsettling. I needed music that even on the shallow surface was more hopeful and content. SBS had more obvious layers of those characteristics than ST, YHF, and AGIB did. When I watched the accompanying bonus DVD that came with SBS and Jeff talked about making a batch of songs that his wife would like and could appreciate - I connected with that as a husband and a father of two young girls.

 

Basically, Jeff's life and musical outlook seemed to have moved past those tumultuous periods that have been well documented. And what he needed to create in his art was exactly what I needed more of in my music taste at that time. None of my other favorite bands or artists have come close to mirroring musically what is going on in my life.

 

Dylan, Van Morrison, R.E.M., they are all long before my time - and while their music speaks to me on many levels, we aren't experiencing the same life journeys at the same time - something Wilco has achieved.

 

I guess I just don't lyrically relate to some other music b/c of where I am in life.

 

Bon Iver, Fleet Foxes, Josh Ritter, The National, Elvis Perkins - all great music and I love it to death, but they aren't speaking into my life the way Wilco has for a number of years. It's not that I require that out of music - it's just that Wilco has been able to provide that, an added bonus I didn't realize was so special until I recognized it.

 

Just some rambling thoughts.

[mtt_wojo]

If every Wilco album sounded the exact same, they'd be accused of not having enough sonic exploration/creativity. I don't understand how people confuse or don't understand the meaning of "creativity."

 

To me, each of those progressions, the tours, albums and songs within them are nothing but an exploration of sound and the creative possibilities of music. If Wilco kept making YHF after YHF, would that be considered pushing the envelope? Or is pushing the envelope being brave enough to take risks with your music, try different approaches, and make the music that reflects who you are as an artist at that time?

 

To echo what some other posters have said: Wilco making music that you don't enjoy as much doesn't equate to a creative decline, and to make this assertion is fine (it's your opinion), but it's pretty damn tough to back up.

 

 

In response to this, I didn't mean a creative decline. Obviously, they still write amazing songs. And I'm not expecting another YHF because that would be absolutely dumb. As a fan, there are certain things in the past that have always drawn me into Wilco:

 

1. Jeff's songwriting

2. The craftsmanship and attention to detail they put into their songs

3. The nuances you don't hear anyone else doing.

 

When I say pushing the envelope/being creative, let me give you an example: On Sky Blue Sky, during 'Walken' there is a part where the song climaxes and all the instruments are building up to this finale...only to have that one string continue after the music fades going 'duh duh, duh duh, duh duh, duh dunt' and the other members slowly add to that and the song swells back up again before it ends. That's f'n brilliant. I don't need a song swarming with buzzes, clicks and distortion to be wowed.

 

All I was saying is that those moments are less and less apparent. And there are moments on the new album where I don't feel they are playing up to their strengths:

 

1. Wilco (The Song)-'Wilco will love you baby'

2. You Never Know- I thought some of the lyrics were trite and parts of the arrangement were boring.

3. Country Disappeared- Amazing lyrics (best on the whole album) set to a lazy song with nothing happening.

4. Everlasting Everything- Those bells/gongs and backup harmonies...too mellowdramatic for my taste.

 

Did I enjoy the rest of the album? Of course I did. I think the other songs are great. I don't need to have everything overdressed for the party, you know? But can I understand people's reaction being underwhelmed? Yes, and I guess that depends on what they were looking for. There was less nuance in this than SBS. Very produced and slick. There's nothing on it that they haven't done already is what I think most people are saying. Playing together and gelling well are not a sign of creativity. It's a sign of being a great band. Don't confuse the two.