Now I remember why I was an independent all those years.

[Good Old Neon]

Because their right to do what they want with their own money trumps the rights of others to have free abortions. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do to equate not using money that people are required by law to pay to fund the killing of the fetuses of strangers to violating the separation of church and state is astounding. Making people pay for their own abortions? Next thing you know, they're gonna burn atheists at the stake.

 

No mental jujitsu is required. Most folks who oppose abortion will admit that they do so on religious grounds - this is not a controversial statement, it‘s a fact. As citizens, we are required to pay taxes, despite our personal feelings as to how that money is spent, period. You can choose to not pay taxes, but that will result in a hefty fine, jail time, or both. Me, I would prefer it if a shitload of tax dollars were devoted to something other than locking up non-violent drug offenders - but, as the law stands, I don’t have a choice. In fact, I would argue that locking up non-violent drug offenders, some of them for life, is worse than aborting a fetus, as the loss of freedom (among other things) experienced by a thinking, functioning person is greater than the loss experienced by a developing fetus, many of which haven’t left the fertilized egg stage, i.e. - possessing nothing even remotely resembling conscious thought - but that’s another argument entirely. Or, we could focus on the nuclear arsenal bought and paid for with tax dollars, an arsenal that provides the illusion of safety, i.e. national defense, but in reality, has the potential to abort us all a million times over.

 

So, given that we all have to hold our noses, and just pay up, why should we single out abortion above any other expenditure? The only real answer to that question is, some folks believe it is a sin - I don’t, and I’d rather not have my choices limited by your or someone else’s religious beliefs. And if we do pass some sort of healthcare bill, and it does not contain a provision that provides abortion for women who cannot otherwise afford one, that’s exactly what we will be doing.

[ikol]

So, given that we all have to hold our noses, and just pay up, why should we single out abortion above any other expenditure? The only real answer to that question is, some folks believe it is a sin - I don’t, and I’d rather not have my choices limited by your or someone else’s religious beliefs. And if we do pass some sort of healthcare bill, and it does not contain a provision that provides abortion for women who cannot otherwise afford one, that’s exactly what we will be doing.

 

That's not the only answer. How about it's not necessary to provide tax money to pay for abortions? It's already a stretch to say that the Constitution provides a right to have an abortion, but it's even more insane to imply that there exists a right to have it provided at no cost to the recipient.

[Good Old Neon]

That's not the only answer. How about it's not necessary to provide tax money to pay for abortions? It's already a stretch to say that the Constitution provides a right to have an abortion, but it's even more insane to imply that there exists a right to have it provided at no cost to the recipient.

 

How about it’s not necessary to provide tax money to pay for the million other things not provided for in the constitution - why are we singling out abortion? I never claimed it is a right, I’m in favor of funding abortion as part of a comprehensive health care plan - as, outside of religious dogma, the choice to have an abortion is largely a medical one.

 

If folks really feel as though abortion is tantamount to murder, a mortal sin, and that by paying taxes they will somehow be complicit in murder and sin, rather than talk the talk, why not walk the walk, stop paying taxes, and live with the consequences? They might go to prison, but they might also save themselves from an eternity in hell.

[ikol]

How about it’s not necessary to provide tax money to pay for the million other things not provided for in the constitution - why are we singling out abortion?

 

I agree. We shouldn't fund those things either.

 

I just realized this debate is pointless as Obama promised that his health plan won't fund abortions.

[Good Old Neon]

I agree. We shouldn't fund those things either.

 

I just realized this debate is pointless as Obama promised that his health plan won't fund abortions.

 

And that’s a shame, as once again, he’s exhibiting the trait pointed out in the original title to this thread, a lack of backbone. Why he kowtows to a political block that rarely gives him the time of day, in fact, probably believes he’s trying to socialize time itself, is beyond me.

[ikol]

Probably because many moderates of the "though I personally oppose abortion, I believe in a woman's right to choose" variety, without whom Obama would not have gotten elected, are against funding abortions with tax money. I've heard they also enjoy watching people throw balls through hoops, which is just crazy.

[futureage1]

Your Mental, how about all the Bush and iraq qar protesters that voted for clinton who dropped bombs on that country througout the 90s same deal . Liberals like to laugh at crazy conservatives just for fun, you know both parties are tied deep into political rhetoric and nothing else supporting either is equally stupid the right wing dosent care if they start a culturual civil war its about politics just like they dont realy care if their is free health care or not why would they care its bnot their money, their against it because of their parties idealogies or fake persona same goes for the dems. One giant party runs your country its called RICH PPL .. stop whining watch more late era geaorge carlin.

 

p.s no such thing as the n.w.o sorry for spitting all that shitte

 

President and CEO of investment manager Rockefeller & Co. found dead in Mass.

 

http://www.latimes.com/business/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-us-obit-james-mcdonald,0,5389413.story

 

( the link won't post out completely so copy and paste to go to the story)

 

 

MARK PRATT Associated Press Writer

 

12:08 PM CDT, September 15, 2009

 

BOSTON (AP) — James S. McDonald, president and chief executive of investment management firm Rockefeller & Co., has died of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound, Massachusetts authorities said Tuesday.

 

McDonald, 56, was found in his vehicle at about 3 p.m. Sunday behind a car dealership in Dartmouth, about 50 miles south of Boston, said Gregg Miliote, a spokesman for the Bristol district attorney's office.

 

There was no note, but McDonald "made a phone call to his wife earlier in the day," Miliote said Tuesday, without getting into specifics of the call. The death is still under investigation.

 

Barclay McFadden III, a longtime friend, said McDonald "took his own life," and added that neither he nor the family had further comment.

 

McDonald had been president and chief executive of the New York investment manager since 2001. The company was started in 1882 by John D. Rockefeller to manage the family's assets.

 

 

It's too bad you only got your information from Alex Jones and he made you look dumb talking about FEMA camps and telling you that Hitler was a liberal. It does exist but people like Alex Jones are paid to make people look stupid that know about it. Look up Project Mockingbird, MKULTRA II and also the term "psychic driving" and you will see what Alex Jones is all about. If you want to read credible sources I would recommend starting with Tragedy & Hope. That pretty much lays it all out and Carroll Quiqley is the only writer who ever had access to their records. It's an official history. There is also a 5 part youtube video where he talks about the book and how it was partly destroyed and pulled from the shelves when it was first released. There is still not a truly complete version because the publisher destroyed the plates to the first half of the book. First editions go for hundreds of dollars because it is the only complete version available.

 

Chomsky's writings from the 90's are also good if you want to know the actual history and not misinformation designed to make you look uninformed and stupid. You also don't have to believe all the bullshit and fearmongering associated with people like Alex Jones and still know it's real. That's the medias trick of lumping everyone together with the lizard chasers, discrediting even the legitimate in the process. Simple parlor tricks that have worked on the public for 100 years.

Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (Hardcover)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Hope-History-World-Time/dp/094500110X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253077885&sr=1-1

 

And if you didn't figure out Ron Paul is meant to divide America from his appearance in Bruno then maybe you should watch these videos. All the charges are documented. You can decide for yourself. He still employs Lew Rockwell as his chief of staff. And I can't stand the Federal Reserve and still have no use for a guy like Ron Paul based on his Ayn Rand worship alone.

 

Ron Paul: The Deep Dark Details PART 1/3 (Redux)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMWFe3LY14I

 

Ron Paul: The Deep Dark Details PART 2/3

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSTxQhZ9Io&feature=related

 

Ron Paul: The Deep Dark Details PART 3/3

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcDfo6hrf-s&feature=related

[Good Old Neon]

PANTHER and Futureage returning on the same day? This is all happening too fast.

[Good Old Neon]

And just when you started to think, hell, it cannot get much crazier than this, it does - from Andrew Sullivan's blog.

 

Limbaugh echoes Malkin:

 

"In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, 'Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on... I wonder if Obama's going to come to the defense of the assailants the way he did his friend Skip Gates up there at Harvard."

 

I'm sorry but this is outrageous. The story was a classic schoolbus bully incident; it could happen anywhere any time and has happened everywhere at all times with kids of all races, backgrounds and religions. To infer both that it was racially motivated and that this is somehow connected to having a black president is repulsive. I know that is almost de trop with Limbaugh, but sometimes you have to regain a little shock. This man is spewing incendiary racial hatred. He is conjuring up images of lonely whites being besieged by angry violent blacks ... based on an incident that had nothing to do with race at all. And why, by the way, does someone immediately go to the racial angle when looking at such a tape?

 

These people are going off the deep end entirely: open panic at a black president is morphing into the conscious fanning of racial polarization, via Gates or ACORN or Van Jones or a schoolbus in Saint Louis. What we're seeing is the Jeremiah Wright moment repeated and repeated. The far right is seizing any racial story to fan white fears of black power in order to destroy Obama. And the far right now controls the entire right.

 

Do they understand how irresonsible this is? How recklessly dangerous to a society's cohesion and calm? Or is that what they need and thrive on?

 

link - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/09/they-dont-even-disguise-the-racebaiting-any-more.html

[Good Old Neon]

I've heard they also enjoy watching people throw balls through hoops, which is just crazy.

 

It’s ok I guess, but it pales in comparison to the sport I’m working on, all I can say right now is, prepare to be blown away, seriously, blown the fuck away. It’s like a mix between tennis, basketball, and Russian roulette, if they were played at night, on an unlit artillery range, using live ordinance. And what’s great, is individual players won’t have time to develop huge egos, because the better you are at playing it, pretty much guarantees that you won’t be around long enough to start getting all full of yourself for being so good at it, cause you’ll be dead.

[jakobnicholas]

Fun reading this thread.

 

Ikol....I love reading your opinions on the abortion/health care debate.

 

Though I am a practicing Catholic and don't believe abortion is right, spending tax dollars to fund abortions isn't wrong because I find it sinful. Rather, I think it's wrong to kill a living human being....and a fetus, for me, qualifies as one.

 

I'm actually stunned that some don't think a woman (and the male who impregnated her) should pay for one. As a male, if I get drunk one night and get it on with a hot female who happens to give me a STD, should I expect tax-payers to pay for my treatment? Hell fucking no!

 

Our health care system definitely needs some fixing, and hopefully both sides can figure something out, but the abortion part of it shouldn't even be questioned...it seems so obvious to me.

 

 

And I don't get this:

 

- Polls claim that 80+ percent of Americans are OK with their health care plan.

 

- The House, dominated by Democrats, still may not have enough votes to pass Obama's plan. It's sounds to be very much in debate.

 

- The Senate, despite 59 Democrats, possibly couldn't even muster 50 votes in favor of Obama's plan without some changes to the plan.

 

- Many Americans...Liberal, Independent or Conservative...are VERY concerned at the HUGE pricetag of the plan and how we'll pay for it down the road.

 

- Obama is gonna spend this weekend on Meet the Press, This Week, Face the Nation, State of the Union, Unvision and then will shill on freakin' David Lettermen. (Of course, no Fox interviews...say what you want about the network, it signals major insecurity by Obama.)

 

- And now Harry Reid is threatening a reconciliation (a way a bill can be passed with only 51 Senate votes) should they be unable to get 60 votes.

 

 

 

WOW! How does this NOT make Americans think the President is trying to shove something that smells and tastes like dog shit down our throats?!!

[bleedorange]

- Obama is gonna spend this weekend on Meet the Press, This Week, Face the Nation, State of the Union, Unvision and then will shill on freakin' David Lettermen. (Of course, no Fox interviews...say what you want about the network, it signals major insecurity by Obama.)

 

WOW! How does this NOT make Americans think the President is trying to shove something that smells and tastes like dog shit down our throats?!!

 

This is what bothers me the most, I think. We elect a president in this country to execute the laws. We don't elect a president in this country to go on television every chance he gets to try to convince us we want something that we don't want.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm actually stunned that some don't think a woman (and the male who impregnated her) should pay for one. As a male, if I get drunk one night and get it on with a hot female who happens to give me a STD, should I expect tax-payers to pay for my treatment? Hell fucking no!

 

Actually, it would be in the public interest for STD treatment to be covered by your health care plan. Chances are that if you get piss drunk and sleep around once, there's a good chance you might do it twice, or more, or simply let the STD(s) go untreated and eventually infect a monogamous partner in the future.

 

In fact, my physician was telling me about a month ago that doctors are considering recommending that men between the ages of 18-36 be vaccinated against HPV, not because the virus harms them but because they can unknowingly infect a female who could sunsequently contract cervical cancer.

 

Providing STD coverage in a health care plan isn't a way of mopping up someone's mistakes, it's a way of improving public health and safety. As far as I'm concerned, one of the primary goals of a community health care plan should be overall community health.

 

(Arguably - and this is the last I'll say on the topic - abortions could be considered to be in the greater interst of public health as well. If, hypothetically, an abortion cost the government $300 a pop, and if 30% of babies aborted, carried to term would otherwise be in the "system" in some way to the cost of $10,000/year until they were 18, and 30% of other babies who would otherwise be carried to term would burden their family unit such that they were below the poverty line or struggling - well, I don't feel like continuing that but you get the idea.)

 

(No, THIS is the last I'll say on that topic: I TOTALLY saw some woman slap a man silly outside the abortion clinic across the street from my office yesterday. He protests outside of there daily (for at least the past 2.5 years), and will approach any woman who "looks" like she's getting an abortion (well-dressed white woman = no, black woman in halter top = yes) and say something to her - I don't know what he says, but this one woman finally had enough. She smacked the fuck out of him, and neither the clinic escort nor the security guard did a damn thing to stop her. It was priceless.)

[Winston Legthigh]

I'm actually stunned that some don't think a woman (and the male who impregnated her) should pay for one. As a male, if I get drunk one night and get it on with a hot female who happens to give me a STD, should I expect tax-payers to pay for my treatment? Hell fucking no!

 

So, when you go to get your shot of penecillin, you're going to say "Hell fucking no, I don't want everyone who's contributing insurance premiums to my provider to have to pay for this, so I'm going to pay for this out of my own pocket."?

[Guest Speed Racer]

So, when you go to get your shot of penecillin, you're going to say "Hell fucking no, I don't want everyone who's contributing insurance premiums to my provider to have to pay for this, so I'm going to pay for this out of my own pocket."?

 

Or if you break your arm because you fall off a ladder painting your house? Do you pay for tetanus shots out of your own pocket because only morons cut themselves on rusty-ass shit? Ask for the bill after you slip on ice because you know you shouldn't have gone out in that weather?

[bobbob1313]

And just when you started to think, hell, it cannot get much crazier than this, it does - from Andrew Sullivan's blog.

 

Limbaugh echoes Malkin:

 

"In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, 'Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on... I wonder if Obama's going to come to the defense of the assailants the way he did his friend Skip Gates up there at Harvard."

 

I'm sorry but this is outrageous. The story was a classic schoolbus bully incident; it could happen anywhere any time and has happened everywhere at all times with kids of all races, backgrounds and religions. To infer both that it was racially motivated and that this is somehow connected to having a black president is repulsive. I know that is almost de trop with Limbaugh, but sometimes you have to regain a little shock. This man is spewing incendiary racial hatred. He is conjuring up images of lonely whites being besieged by angry violent blacks ... based on an incident that had nothing to do with race at all. And why, by the way, does someone immediately go to the racial angle when looking at such a tape?

 

These people are going off the deep end entirely: open panic at a black president is morphing into the conscious fanning of racial polarization, via Gates or ACORN or Van Jones or a schoolbus in Saint Louis. What we're seeing is the Jeremiah Wright moment repeated and repeated. The far right is seizing any racial story to fan white fears of black power in order to destroy Obama. And the far right now controls the entire right.

 

Do they understand how irresonsible this is? How recklessly dangerous to a society's cohesion and calm? Or is that what they need and thrive on?

 

link - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/09/they-dont-even-disguise-the-racebaiting-any-more.html

 

This makes me so angry. I know it's Rush Limbaugh, but god this makes me so fucking mad. What a fucking racist piece of shit. He's the worst.

 

Has he never seen a schoolyard fight? What the fuck is wrong with him. God, fuck him so hard...

[Good Old Neon]

This is what bothers me the most, I think. We elect a president in this country to execute the laws. We don't elect a president in this country to go on television every chance he gets to try to convince us we want something that we don't want.

 

Which is why the two of your were always expressing your displeasure with Bush and Cheney (who, if you didn’t know better, you’d think he was the co-host of Meet the Press) whenever they appeared on television – yes or no?

[Good Old Neon]

Fun reading this thread.

WOW! How does this NOT make Americans think the President is trying to shove something that smells and tastes like dog shit down our throats?!!

 

Which is why you led the charge against Bush when he was trying, successfully, to shove all that shit about Iraq down our throats, right?

[bleedorange]

Which is why the two of your were always expressing your displeasure with Bush and Cheney (who, if you didn’t know better, you’d think he was the co-host of Meet the Press) whenever they appeared on television – yes or no?

 

I have less of a problem with a VP being on a show and I don't remember Bush being on any of these shows or having nearly as many television appearances. I've tried to block a lot of the Bush presidency out of my mind, though.

[Good Old Neon]

Fun reading this thread.

 

Ikol....I love reading your opinions on the abortion/health care debate.

 

Though I am a practicing Catholic and don't believe abortion is right, spending tax dollars to fund abortions isn't wrong because I find it sinful. Rather, I think it's wrong to kill a living human being....and a fetus, for me, qualifies as one.

 

I'm actually stunned that some don't think a woman (and the male who impregnated her) should pay for one. As a male, if I get drunk one night and get it on with a hot female who happens to give me a STD, should I expect tax-payers to pay for my treatment? Hell fucking no!

 

Our health care system definitely needs some fixing, and hopefully both sides can figure something out, but the abortion part of it shouldn't even be questioned...it seems so obvious to me.

 

So, I’m guessing you’re equally critical of the “defense” budget as it relates to that little pre-emptive war we waged against Iraq, the one whose motto was – Shock and Awe - which, when translated means, we’re going to drop a whole lot of shit in areas densely populated by innocent civilians with the hope that they will become so terrorized, that they’ll turn against their leader – well, the ones who don’t find themselves all blowed up, i.e. – murdered using our tax dollars?

[Guest Speed Racer]

This is what bothers me the most, I think. We elect a president in this country to execute the laws. We don't elect a president in this country to go on television every chance he gets to try to convince us we want something that we don't want.

 

To me, this is another way that the presidency is changing, not simply some stunt by Obama. Presidents often visit points of interest when they are promoting a bill they would like to have passed - hospitals, schools, veterans' homes, etc. - that is certainly nothing new. Those visits garner press coverage which serves essentially the same function as a television appearance, and have little to nothing to do with executing laws.

 

Especially about such a hot topic for which there are inarguably hundreds of misunderstandings on either side of the debate, you cannot really argue that speaking directly to the people isn't an effective way of bolstering your own vision - which, let's face it, is what presidents do.

[Tweedling]

I think birth control should be put in our drinking water and/or beer and the medicine to reverse it should be in tooth paste.

[jakobnicholas]

Especially about such a hot topic for which there are inarguably hundreds of misunderstandings on either side of the debate, you cannot really argue that speaking directly to the people isn't an effective way of bolstering your own vision - which, let's face it, is what presidents do.

 

 

This is what confuses me.

 

I listed earlier:

 

- Polls claim that 80+ percent of Americans are OK with their health care plan.

- The House, dominated by Democrats, still may not have enough votes to pass Obama's plan. It's sounds to be very much in debate.

- The Senate, despite 59 Democrats, possibly couldn't even muster 50 votes in favor of Obama's plan without some changes to the plan.

- Many Americans...Liberal, Independent or Conservative...are VERY concerned at the HUGE pricetag of the plan and how we'll pay for it down the road.

- Harry Reid is threatening a reconciliation (a way a bill can be passed with only 51 Senate votes) should they be unable to get 60 votes.

 

 

Every point above very clearly suggests Obama's new health care plan is either not wanted, not worthy, or needs to be changed dramatically. Yet, I constantly hear that people are "misunderstanding" the bill. I can't imagine the House and Senate members are misunderstanding the bill. Is it not a red flag that, despite Obama having Democrats control Congress, he still almost certainly would not pass his bill right now?

 

I don't know if "misunderstand" is the proper word. Maybe "scared" would be better. The numbers being tossed around to pay for this...at a time where our economy is shaky and people are out of work...are GIGANTIC. Many Americans understandably are thinking, "how the hell can we pay for all this?!".

 

 

And to get back to the title of this thread. All of the next 3 tidbits would make me happy to be Independent:

 

- Fox News, a Conservative-slanted network for sure, broke a very worthy story about Acorn. 2 young journalists posed as a pimp and prostitute and exposed many workers of ACORN. Charles Gibson claims to not know a thing about it ("I'll leave stories like for the cables"). Jon Stewart criticized the mainstream media (mostly left-leaning) about this story last night:

 

"ACORN appears to be a corrupt organization that aids and abets criminals and gets millions of dollars in taxpayer money." That was Jon Stewart on Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," who in a six-minute segment not only covered the story of ACORN representatives giving business advice to folks trying to set up a child-prostitution ring, but also lambasted the media for getting scooped so embarrassingly by "two kids from the cast of ‘High School Musical III.'"

 

 

- Jimmy Carter with this quote:

 

"I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African-American," Carter told "NBC Nightly News." "I live in the South, and I've seen the South come a long way, and I've seen the rest of the country that shares the South's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly African-Americans."

 

That is SO irresponsible of ANYBODY to bring out the race card, especially a former President. If we disgree with Obama we're racist? Ridiculous.

 

 

 

- Michael Moore was on Leno last night promoting his new film that takes a look at Capitalism. Of course, Moore thinks Capitalism has gotten way out of control. And he might be right. Should be an interesting film. He supposedly rips into Democrats AND Republicans.

[Good Old Neon]

 

 

"I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African-American," Carter told "NBC Nightly News." "I live in the South, and I've seen the South come a long way, and I've seen the rest of the country that shares the South's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly African-Americans."

 

That is SO irresponsible of ANYBODY to bring out the race card, especially a former President. If we disgree with Obama we're racist? Ridiculous.

 

Rush Limbaugh:

 

"In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, 'Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on... I wonder if Obama's going to come to the defense of the assailants the way he did his friend Skip Gates up there at Harvard."

[Guest Speed Racer]

- Fox News, a Conservative-slanted network for sure, broke a very worthy story about Acorn. 2 young journalists posed as a pimp and prostitute and exposed many workers of ACORN. Charles Gibson claims to not know a thing about it ("I'll leave stories like for the cables"). Jon Stewart criticized the mainstream media (mostly left-leaning) about this story last night:

 

"ACORN appears to be a corrupt organization that aids and abets criminals and gets millions of dollars in taxpayer money." That was Jon Stewart on Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," who in a six-minute segment not only covered the story of ACORN representatives giving business advice to folks trying to set up a child-prostitution ring, but also lambasted the media for getting scooped so embarrassingly by "two kids from the cast of ‘High School Musical III.'"

 

I'm sorry, the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families makes you happy to be an independent why?