Michael Jordan

[bobbob1313]

David Foster Wallace was good at putting ink to paper and/or hitting keys in a seemingly random manner, but he was still just doing that stuff.

[bjorn_skurj]

Jordan can eat a bowl of f and get genital warts in his stomach for all I care, but the man was the best that's ever been, so none can refute his smack-talk.

[Good Old Neon]

David Foster Wallace was good at putting ink to paper and/or hitting keys in a seemingly random manner, but he was still just doing that stuff.

 

The analogy doesn’t hold given that language and the written word, the ability to express the entire gamut of human emotions, our defining ability as humans, far exceeds the limits of basketball, which, can only ever reference itself. I get your point, Jordan could do things with his body that few of us could ever pull off, but my point, is that it's still just basketball, and because he's good at doing this, it does not excuse jerky behavior.

 

Tomorrow, we could arbitrarily invent a game in which we throw rocks through a hole drilled into a tree, and the two of us could become the best there ever was at doing it, and that would, I guess, be some sort of achievement, but 100 years from now, if folks were still playing it, it would still amount to little more than a bunch of guys throwing a rock through a tree.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

The analogy doesn’t hold given that language and the written word, the ability to express the entire gamut of human emotions, our defining ability as humans, far exceeds the limits of basketball, which, can only ever reference itself. I get your point, Jordan could do things with his body that few of us could ever pull off, but my point, is that it's still just basketball, and because he's good at doing this, it does not excuse jerky behavior.

 

Tomorrow, we could arbitrarily invent a game in which we throw rocks through a hole drilled into a tree, and the two of us could become the best there ever was at doing it, and that would, I guess, be some sort of achievement, but 100 years from now, if folks were still playing it, it would still amount to little more than a bunch of guys throwing a rock through a tree.

 

We all know you found you secular god...we are just funnin' with you.

[Sir Stewart]

The analogy doesn’t hold given that language and the written word, the ability to express the entire gamut of human emotions, our defining ability as humans, far exceeds the limits of basketball, which, can only ever reference itself. I get your point, Jordan could do things with his body that few of us could ever pull off, but my point, is that it's still just basketball, and because he's good at doing this, it does not excuse jerky behavior.

 

But admit it - you probably would've said that ("ball in hole") if the thread was just about Michael Jordan's induction into the Hall of Fame, without the sideshow about him acting like a jerk.

[MattZ]

And what about the joy that Jordan provided to so many? Is it just a guy putting a ball in a hoop if he makes that many people happy?

[bobbob1313]

The analogy doesn’t hold given that language and the written word, the ability to express the entire gamut of human emotions, our defining ability as humans, far exceeds the limits of basketball, which, can only ever reference itself. I get your point, Jordan could do things with his body that few of us could ever pull off, but my point, is that it's still just basketball, and because he's good at doing this, it does not excuse jerky behavior.

 

Tomorrow, we could arbitrarily invent a game in which we throw rocks through a hole drilled into a tree, and the two of us could become the best there ever was at doing it, and that would, I guess, be some sort of achievement, but 100 years from now, if folks were still playing it, it would still amount to little more than a bunch of guys throwing a rock through a tree.

 

I don't really think there is that big of a difference. Why is the written word our defining ability as humans but not our ability to test the physical limits of our bodies in extremely well organized events and stuff like that? If David Foster Wallace routinely raped collies, would he be excused because he was a good writer? It's not just basketball anymore, right? Now he's able to express the entire gamut of human emotions!

 

I'm not really arguing that, per se, I just hate that for such a fucking intelligent person, you are so god damned narrow minded. You think writing is awesome, that's cool. I might actually be brought more personal joy and satisfaction by guys like Jordan than a really well written book. You're going to say that makes me less of a person, but you know.

 

I just don't get why writing a book can't be oversimplified and broken down in the same way. "Fundamentally", it still amounts to little more than leaving impressions on a piece of paper with ink. It's all in what you personally make of it. This is a concept that appears to be completely alien to you, given past discussions, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[Moss]

Although he did get away with that foul on Bryan Russell in the 98 Series.

[The High Heat]

How the hell does a player get into the Hall of Fame with stats like this?

[Spawn's dad]

The analogy doesn’t hold given that language and the written word, the ability to express the entire gamut of human emotions, our defining ability as humans...

 

 

holy, I'm right and you're wrong batman!

 

Do you really not see that for many many many people the pursuit of athletic achievement expresses that very thing?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yvkT2uMnIY

 

 

There's even this thing called the Olympics....

 

 

A great book on the very subject

 

[bobbob1313]

How the hell does a player get into the Hall of Fame with stats like this?

 

I like the plate discipline.

 

Honestly, though. His baseball career is considered something of a joke, but if you think about how difficult a game it is, the fact that he even did what he did is a testament to what type of athlete he is. He hadn't played competitvely in like 13 years, right? And he just walked onto a fairly high level of play and hit .200. There are guys who can't do that who have played every day their entire lives.

 

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I think if he had gone with baseball instead of basketball, he could have been a hell of a player.

[Good Old Neon]

I don't really think there is that big of a difference. Why is the written word our defining ability as humans but not our ability to test the physical limits of our bodies in extremely well organized events and stuff like that? If David Foster Wallace routinely raped collies, would he be excused because he was a good writer? It's not just basketball anymore, right? Now he's able to express the entire gamut of human emotions!

 

I'm not really arguing that, per se, I just hate that for such a fucking intelligent person, you are so god damned narrow minded. You think writing is awesome, that's cool. I might actually be brought more personal joy and satisfaction by guys like Jordan than a really well written book. You're going to say that makes me less of a person, but you know.

 

I just don't get why writing a book can't be oversimplified and broken down in the same way. "Fundamentally", it still amounts to little more than leaving impressions on a piece of paper with ink. It's all in what you personally make of it. This is a concept that appears to be completely alien to you, given past discussions, but that doesn't make it any less true.

 

You’re right, I’m painting with a wrecking ball where it might be more appropriate to work with a scalpel, or maybe just a bowie knife. I don’t disagree that sports play an important role in our culture, and many social advancements have been sped along because of them, my point, originally, is that we have a tendency to overlook or excuse assholish behavior simply because someone is really good at something, in this case, a sport. Many athletes are pretty much physical artists on the field/court, but total fucking assholes and wastes of space off – Michael Vick comes to mind. But rather than call an asshole an asshole, lots of folks excuse or attempt to explain away his behavior on the grounds that he’s really good with a ball, as if that trumps being a decent human being.

 

Michael Jordon is arguably the greatest basketball player to ever play the game, and I’ve only watched a minute or two of the video, so I don’t feel qualified to judge his behavior, though what I did see didn’t strike me as particularly petty or bad. So in that sense, I’m singling Jordon out unfairly – I was simply using him as an example in this case. I stand by my belief that our ability to communicate entire worlds through the manipulation of the written word is far, far more important and meaningful than any contributions sports make within our culture/society. If we were to go a month without sports, and then a month without access to any form of writing, I’m willing to bet the farm that at the end of the experiment, we’d be begging for our ability to communicate long before we just couldn’t stand to go without basketball for even just one more second.

 

I don’t agree that everything is only important as we make it out to be – some things are in fact much more important than others, despite of our personal preferences. Certain things may be more important to you, personally. Say, for example, automobiles in relation to the invention of sneakers with little lights in them. You may own a pair that means the entire world to you, and you simply couldn’t live without them, but when it comes to cars, you don’t own one, nor do you care to – you think they’re a waste of time. But if we step back and take a look at the big picture, it does not hold that glow in the dark Hush Puppies are every bit as important as the automobile, for you, perhaps, but otherwise, I don’t think so.

 

I knew from the beginning I was sharing an unpopular view, which is why I agreed in advance that I’d take a lot of shit. I’m also not suggesting that writers deserve a free pass without regards to their behavior, regardless of how talented they may be.

[MattZ]

Many athletes are pretty much physical artists on the field/court, but total fucking assholes and wastes of space off – Michael Vick comes to mind. But rather than call an asshole an asshole, lots of folks excuse or attempt to explain away his behavior on the grounds that he’s really good with a ball, as if that trumps being a decent human being.

 

I can't think of a single person who doesn't think Vick is an asshole.

 

I’ve only watched a minute or two of the video, so I don’t feel qualified to judge his behavior, though what I did see didn’t strike me as particularly petty or bad. So in that sense, I’m singling Jordon out unfairly – I was simply using him as an example in this case.

 

You are not only singling out Jordan unfairly, you are using a video you didn't spend the time to watch, and the comments about whether his actions in that video were "petty" or not, as a platform to accuse folks of excusing inexcusable behavior. Which no one here did.

 

I knew from the beginning I was sharing an unpopular view, which is why I agreed in advance that I’d take a lot of shit. I’m also not suggesting that writers deserve a free pass without regards to their behavior, regardless of how talented they may be.

 

I dont think you are taking shit for an unpopular view. I think you are taking shit for missing the point of this thread and turning it into a topic you want to discuss. Which is fine, I suppose, but if you want to talk about the value of sports vs writing, why not start a thread about it? I'd probably end up agreeing with you about certain things in that thread.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I heard on the radio that Terry Francona was the Baron's manager during Jordan's stint at Birmingham.

[Good Old Neon]

I can't think of a single person who doesn't think Vick is an asshole.

 

You are not only singling out Jordan unfairly, you are using a video you didn't spend the time to watch, and the comments about whether his actions in that video were "petty" or not, as a platform to accuse folks of excusing inexcusable behavior. Which no one here did.

 

I dont think you are taking shit for an unpopular view. I think you are taking shit for missing the point of this thread and turning it into a topic you want to discuss. Which is fine, I suppose, but if you want to talk about the value of sports vs writing, why not start a thread about it? I'd probably end up agreeing with you about certain things in that thread.

 

You’re right, I’m way off topic – and I apologize for sending this thing off the rails. I’m done.

 

In the future, remind me to not step foot in sports related threads.

[bobbob1313]

So basically, you don't have a point?

 

It's not like he's fucking killing people. He's a competitive egomaniac. Probably the worst thing he's done related to that is punching Steve Kerr in the face. I don't think people are excusing the way he treated his wife, for example, but I think its pretty easy to excuse someone being a competitive prick like him because you can't be who Michael Jordan is without being that way.

 

And it's not like people are out there defending Mike Vick or Donte Stallworth en masse just because they have, as you might put it, one socially unredeeming skill. If you're a jerk, but you are good at something and people like you, they are going to defend you. I like Kanye West's music, so I'm something of a Kanye West apologist. If Christopher Hitchens cursed somebody out, you'd probably find yourself defending him too. These are not massive crimes that people should feel guilty about. To criticize people for defending a guy who is just kind of dicky is ridiculous.

 

If people were saying "You know, I know he killed dogs and all, but have you seen his 2002 season?" then yeah, you might have a point.

 

But defending Michael Jordan because he's a prick who brought you tons of memories, that's not something that I think is worth criticizing.

 

And you said that people were elevating him and saying he's somehow "different" than most people. Well of fucking course he is, and not just physically. There is a completely different mindset in people like Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, Serena Williams, Usain Bolt, etc, and yeah there is something to admire in that, and it's not just nearly as shallow as you would make it seem.

 

As for the rest, I still don't see how being a writer is a more "noble" occupation than being an athlete. It's all in what you get out of it. Sure, the written word may be more important than basketball, but that's not the argument. It should be more like is the written word more important than recreation in general, since that's as broad as you can get. Recreation has been around a lot longer than writing, so I would dare say it's pretty important to us as a species.

[Spawn's dad]

The existence of the Olympics is predicated upon our ability to communicate – I mean, otherwise, how would we even schedule that shit? The fact that we document our history through the use of books such as the one you’ve recommended, sort of makes my point for me. In fact, it could be argued that our ability to fictionalize such things makes it possible to do away with sports entirely. For an example, see Don DeLillo’s Pafko at the Wall, probably the most exciting bit of sports writing I’ve ever come across.

 

But again, to get back to my original point, one’s ability to launch a heavy round ball through space, further than just about anyone, doesn’t give that person the right to behave like an asshole when not throwing that really heavy ball downfield, just because he or she can – which was my original point.

 

No, it doesn't really make your point. The athletic achievement is greater than the book. The fact that Michael Jackson diddled little boys all but negates anything he did for me, but countless people defend his body of work as separate from his life. The fact that your hero killed himself, for me, casts a pale on his work but for you that isn't the case. No one said it gave anyone the right to act anyway at all. Artists, doctors, lawyers, athletes, ice cream men, all make incredible achievements in their particular areas. All should have to conform to the boundaries of socially acceptable behavior. None of that negates the inspiration or boundaries expanded by the achievement of pushing the body and mind in the pursuit of athletic achievement. I wouldn't want a doctor working on my car. I didn't want Charles Barkley being my kid's role model. But when it comes to trying to put everything you have into one focused endeavor you'd be hard pressed to fictionalize a better metaphor.

[Sir Stewart]

I heard on the radio that Terry Francona was the Baron's manager during Jordan's stint at Birmingham.

 

This comes up once in awhile around these parts.

[Good Old Neon]

So basically, you don't have a point?

 

It's not like he's fucking killing people. He's a competitive egomaniac. Probably the worst thing he's done related to that is punching Steve Kerr in the face. I don't think people are excusing the way he treated his wife, for example, but I think its pretty easy to excuse someone being a competitive prick like him because you can't be who Michael Jordan is without being that way.

 

And it's not like people are out there defending Mike Vick or Donte Stallworth en masse just because they have, as you might put it, one socially unredeeming skill. If you're a jerk, but you are good at something and people like you, they are going to defend you. I like Kanye West's music, so I'm something of a Kanye West apologist. If Christopher Hitchens cursed somebody out, you'd probably find yourself defending him too. These are not massive crimes that people should feel guilty about. To criticize people for defending a guy who is just kind of dicky is ridiculous.

 

If people were saying "You know, I know he killed dogs and all, but have you seen his 2002 season?" then yeah, you might have a point.

 

But defending Michael Jordan because he's a prick who brought you tons of memories, that's not something that I think is worth criticizing.

 

And you said that people were elevating him and saying he's somehow "different" than most people. Well of fucking course he is, and not just physically. There is a completely different mindset in people like Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, Serena Williams, Usain Bolt, etc, and yeah there is something to admire in that, and it's not just nearly as shallow as you would make it seem.

 

As for the rest, I still don't see how being a writer is a more "noble" occupation than being an athlete. It's all in what you get out of it. Sure, the written word may be more important than basketball, but that's not the argument. It should be more like is the written word more important than recreation in general, since that's as broad as you can get. Recreation has been around a lot longer than writing, so I would dare say it's pretty important to us as a species.

 

I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this, and, as usual, you’ve made some great points. With one exception, I sort of pride myself on my willingness to hold folks accountable, despite how I may feel about them personally. I have openly disagreed with and/or criticized Hitchens on many, many occasions, perhaps not on this board, but elsewhere. The same goes for Wallace, he is, obviously, my favorite writer, but I don’t think everything he has written is golden, nor have I agreed with him on all occasions, and I’ve expressed those feelings elsewhere as well. I try my best to behave this way in my private life also, to the detriment of some friendships – but I can and have and do live with that.

 

Like you, I derive joy from being contrarian, even if only for its own sake, and like you, I think, it often gets me into trouble. Which probably explains why we butt heads so often and passionately. Which, is why on those occasions where we do see eye to eye, it feels pretty good, even if fleeting, these moments.

 

No, it doesn't really make your point. The athletic achievement is greater than the book. The fact that Michael Jackson diddled little boys all but negates anything he did for me, but countless people defend his body of work as separate from his life. The fact that your hero killed himself, for me, casts a pale on his work but for you that isn't the case. No one said it gave anyone the right to act anyway at all. Artists, doctors, lawyers, athletes, ice cream men, all make incredible achievements in their particular areas. All should have to conform to the boundaries of socially acceptable behavior. None of that negates the inspiration or boundaries expanded by the achievement of pushing the body and mind in the pursuit of athletic achievement. I wouldn't want a doctor working on my car. I didn't want Charles Barkley being my kid's role model. But when it comes to trying to put everything you have into one focused endeavor you'd be hard pressed to fictionalize a better metaphor.

 

Well said, which is why I deleted the original post shortly after posting it - my heart wasn't in it. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough. Great post, and I agree with ALMOST every point you've made.

[Spawn's dad]

Well said, which is why I deleted the original post shortly after posting it - my heart wasn't in it. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough. Great post, and I agree with ALMOST every point you've made.

 

 

[MattZ]

Is Michael Jordan just a guy who puts a ball in a hole if he brings peace to VC?

[Sir Stewart]

Did he thank Charlie Sheen?

[watch me fall]

I can't think of a single person who doesn't think Vick is an asshole.

 

Maybe Vick?

 

Did he thank Charlie Sheen?

 

He's such an asshole in those commercials. Sheesh.

[bjorn_skurj]

Is Michael Jordan just a guy who puts a ball in a hole if he brings peace to VC?

I will never accept a Pax Jordana. Ewing Regnat!

[myboyblue]

I just watched the speech and don't understand what any of the negative hubbub is all about. Seemed like a decent speech. He's not the most articulate guy in front of a camera and it certainly isn't his core strength but he recognized quite a few people.