Wilco - 10/15/2009 Toronto

[dsutkiewic]

Last night's concert was in 2009, during which one man was standing and no one else was. You were violating the Massey Hall code of conduct, which asks patrons to respect other patrons' concert experiences by not blocking the view of others. If Wilco asked everyone to stand, and everyone did, you would not have been kicked out. As it is, you were asked to sit - not stand - twice and refused to do so.

 

 

"It is definitely one of the more difficult situations we have to deal with. It's a pretty sticky one," Patterson (a Massey Hall manager) said.

 

He said the final decision on how to deal with the debate inevitably rests with the artists, and the venue's staff will ask a tour manager if fans should be encouraged to sit or allowed to stand. "

 

As per Tweedy's remarks, I have to assume the band wanted the crowd to stand.

 

Dan.

[cryptique]

It doesn't matter what the band wants. The balcony clearly was a seated area last night. Your litany of excuses isn't gaining any traction.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, people often sit in the balcony because they don't want to have to stand down on the main floor. In refusing to accede to multiple, reasonable requests from security to sit down, you announced that you believed you were more important than anyone else in the balcony.

 

Be glad you got thrown out by security before someone seated behind you threw you over the railing. I'd have considered it myself, had I been stuck behind you.

 

So in answer to your question, you have no complaint. Maybe next time you'll think about someone other than yourself.

[jcarlile1]

I figure if you have a seat, you should get to use it...Of course I'm the World's Oldest Wilco Fan and shouldn't even be out with you younguns.

 

I certainly want to use my seat at the UIC Pav, but I also know that everyone around and in front of us will be standing, so I guess I'll have to stand too, unfortunately. At least I can always sit when needed, but it's no fun to look at peoples backsides instead of the band.....

[dsutkiewic]

 

As someone mentioned earlier, people often sit in the balcony because they don't want to have to stand down on the main floor. In refusing to accede to multiple, reasonable requests from security to sit down, you announced that you believed you were more important than anyone else in the balcony.

 

 

 

You're saying that like I had a choice of being on the floor or the balcony. I got what Ticketmaster gave me in terms of a ticket. If I could have chosen floor, I would have chosen floor, without a doubt. But I couldn't.

 

 

It doesn't matter what the band wants. The balcony clearly was a seated area last night. Your litany of excuses isn't gaining any traction.

 

 

 

As the Massey Hall manager states in my previous quote, it DOES matter what the band wants.

 

Dan.

[Guest Speed Racer]

You're saying that like I had a choice of being on the floor or the balcony. I got what Ticketmaster gave me in terms of a ticket. If I could have chosen floor, I would have chosen floor, without a doubt. But I couldn't.

 

No, I think he's saying that like you had a choice to stand or sit. And you did. You could have stood in the back of the balcony, no?

 

 

As the Massey Hall manager states in my previous quote, it DOES matter what the band wants.

 

You're selectively disregarding the Massey Hall policy though, which states that you cannot, cannot impede the experience of others. If the band asks everyone to stand and everyone does, you are not impeding others by standing.

[dsutkiewic]

No, I think he's saying that like you had a choice to stand or sit. And you did. You could have stood in the back of the balcony, no?

 

 

I suppose I could have. I didn't think about that. Would they not have complained about that being a fire hazard or something? They never let you in the aisles at venues. But I would have done that no problem if it was suggested to me. I didn't think about it, and I'm not sure if its allowed, regardless.

 

 

You're selectively disregarding the Massey Hall policy though, which states that you cannot, cannot impede the experience of others. If the band asks everyone to stand and everyone does, you are not impeding others by standing.

 

 

Here's the full quote:

 

"At Toronto's iconic Massey Hall -- a 114-year-old theatre that seats about 2,700 and has played host to everyone from Neil Young and Bob Dylan to U2 and Rush -- there's no ironclad sit-or-stand policy in place.

 

But some concertgoers might be surprised at what their "rights" are.

 

While the venue doesn't refuse to let fans get up and dance, buying a ticket does not grant a patron the absolute right to do so either, said Jeff Patterson, a Massey Hall manager.

 

A lot of people say, when you ask them to sit down, that they bought the right to stand, Patterson said.

 

"But a lot of people who are sitting down will also say, 'Well, I bought this ticket and I have the right to sit down and enjoy the show as well.' "

 

"It is definitely one of the more difficult situations we have to deal with. It's a pretty sticky one," Patterson said.

 

He said the final decision on how to deal with the debate inevitably rests with the artists, and the venue's staff will ask a tour manager if fans should be encouraged to sit or allowed to stand."

...

I'm not sure when these new etiquette policies were applied, but I don't see anywhere where they tell you that you "cannot" stand. They ask you to, "Your consideration for fellow patrons and performers, by not causing any distraction that will disturb the atmosphere of the concert, will ensure everyone’s full enjoyment of the live performance."

 

They ALSO "suggest" that you "Please refrain from quiet conversations, whispers, singing, and humming and crinkly candy wrappers as the acclaimed acoustics of this auditorium carry your conversation and disruptions all the way to the stage as well as to the patrons around you."

 

So if I sing along to Wilco songs, I'm getting kicked out too?

 

Dan.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I don't know what on earth you're quoting, but on the first page of this discussion Wendy quote's directly from Massey Hall's website, and was courteous enough to place pertinent statements in bold.

 

As for your hypothetical, if you were singing so loud I could hear only you and not the band, I would call an usher - just like I would if you were standing in front of me.

 

I don't know how much tickets were last night, but I'm 99% sure that if people sitting behind you wanted to see nothing but your ass, they probably would have paid you directly.

[dsutkiewic]

I don't know what on earth you're quoting, but on the first page of this discussion Wendy quote's directly from Massey Hall's website, and was courteous enough to place pertinent statements in bold.

 

As for your hypothetical, if you were singing so loud I could hear only you and not the band, I would call an usher - just like I would if you were standing in front of me.

 

I don't know how much tickets were last night, but I'm 99% sure that if people sitting behind you wanted to see nothing but your ass, they probably would have paid you directly.

 

I'm quoting the Massey site as well.

 

Regardless, I don't see one place, anywhere, where it says i cannot stand up at a show at Massey Hall. I see a place where they ask you to "Please be considerate of those behind you," and I would have been glad to, by moving down to the floor, where everyone else was standing. But I couldn't, a) because Ticketmaster did not afford me that ability, and B ) because it was not suggested (or is not allowed) to me to stand at the back of the section.

 

Dan.

[ps1211]

I'm quoting the Massey site as well.

 

Regardless, I don't see one place, anywhere, where it says i cannot stand up at a show at Massey Hall. I see a place where they ask you to "Please be considerate of those behind you," and I would have been glad to, by moving down to the floor, where everyone else was standing. But I couldn't, a) because Ticketmaster did not afford me that ability, and B ) because it was not suggested (or is not allowed) to me to stand at the back of the section.

 

Dan.

 

 

Sit down & be quiet! (Couldn't resist)

 

How do we end this conversation and get back to discussing the awesomeness that was last night's show. Feist, Casino Queen, Cali Stars, Hate it Here, Radio Cure, about 40 ‘Nothings’ during Misunderstood! Even Glenn joining Liam on Cinnamon Girl.

 

Dude you should have seen it! Brilliant.

[Wendy]

ps1211, I agree ... but I have one more question for Dan.

 

OK. I think a venue should have some sort of preparedness for this kind of issue, it isn't going away. They should have some options to move a patron who is unhappy ... for whatever reason. You may need to be the person to open some dialogue with them and discuss it in person (and you should find that manager quoted in your link). Win them over by finding a solution rather than displaying defiance.

 

Please excuse me if my following assumptions are wrong, but I'd be interested to know ...

 

The show you attended on the 15th was an added show after the 14th sold out. So did you miss the 14th Massey Hall Wilcoworld presale? How about the 14th regular Ticketmaster onsale? Did you miss the Wilcoworld presale for the added show on the 15th? (I'm assuming there was one.) Because you ended up in the balcony on the 15th.

 

There might be some room for you to improve your chances at getting floor tickets (where you're much less likely to run into this problem) if you get a little more savvy and proactive about ticket presales and onsales for bands you want to see perform live. Are you on the Wilcoworld mailing list? The Massey Hall mailing list? Radio station mailing lists?

 

Because it's pretty obvious - you're not really a balcony kind of guy. I hope you can come back and report something positive out of your experience. It doesn't have to end this way.

 

[dsutkiewic]

ps1211, I agree ... but I have one more question for Dan.

 

OK. I think a venue should have some sort of preparedness for this kind of issue, it isn't going away. They should have some options to move a patron who is unhappy ... for whatever reason. You may need to be the person to open some dialogue with them and discuss it in person, and you should find that manager quoted in your link). Win them over by finding a solution rather than displaying defiance.

 

Please excuse me if my following assumptions are wrong, but I'd be interested to know ...

 

The show you attended on the 15th was an added show after the 14th sold out. So did you miss the 14th Massey Hall Wilcoworld presale? How about the 14th regular Ticketmaster onsale? Did you miss the Wilcoworld presale for the added show on the 15th? (I'm assuming there was one.) Because you ended up in the balcony on the 15th.

 

There might be some room for you to improve your chances at getting floor tickets (where you're much less likely to run into this problem) if you get a little more savvy and proactive about ticket presales and onsales for bands you want to see perform live. Are you on the Wilcoworld mailing list? The Massey Hall mailing list? Radio station mailing lists?

 

Because it's pretty obvious - you're not really a balcony kind of guy. I hope you can come back and report something positive out of your experience. It doesn't have to end this way.

 

 

Hey Wendy,

 

haha, is it that obvious?!

 

I went to the Oct 14th show, and was balcony, and stood the entire time with a couple people in my section. No problems at all, had a great time! My friend had actually won tickets to that show off the radio.

 

You're right, there is some level of proactivity that needs to be applied to get floor tickets. Usually I try and be one of the first to get tickets, I'm on the site right at onsale, but for the Oct 15th show, my friend was the one who bought the tickets. Also, those presales are in US Dollars, and sometimes the difference in currency makes it really hard to justify spending the extra money. in saying that though, I personally usually go with the presales.

 

Dan.

[Wendy]

Oh, wow - I did not realize that about the presale currency thing! That really sucks. Sounds like you are with the program, so I guess, um, nevermind.

[dsutkiewic]

Oh, wow - I did not realize that about the presale currency thing! That really sucks. Sounds like you are with the program, so I guess, um, nevermind.

 

Yeah it sucks...

 

I'm gonna email the band, and their management. And Massey.

 

Dan.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm gonna email the band, and their management. And Massey.

 

This is the last I'll say on the topic:

 

It sounds as if Massey's policy is enforced on a situation-by-situation basis. Last night, they notified you that, in your situation, they would apply the no-standing rule. They notified you twice, and you did not ask for accomodations - rather, you insisted that you would stand until they ejected you. I think they gave you more than enough warning about the consequences of your actions and sufficient understanding of their policies that night.

 

Also, I don't think Wilco gives a rip that one person was ejected last night for failing to comply with the venue's terms and conditions.

[jbabco]

Oh, wow - I did not realize that about the presale currency thing! That really sucks. Sounds like you are with the program, so I guess, um, nevermind.

 

Just out of curiosity, what's the "currency thing"? I'm in Canada. I ordered both nights on the presale. Got floors both nights (1st row and 6th row). Paid US$50 @. What's the Canadian Ticketmaster + surcharge + tax face price for these tickets? I don't think it's that much less than US$50 at recent exchange rates, and if it is I think the benefit of getting great seats is well worth any difference.

 

Just being honest here, dude sounds like he deserved what he got. Two types of people you don't mess with if you want to enjoy a concert: venue security, and border guards. Whatever you thought your "rights" were, you were being petulant. You'll know for next time.

[Kevan]

Just out of curiosity, what's the "currency thing"? I'm in Canada. I ordered both nights on the presale. Got floors both nights (1st row and 6th row). Paid US$50 @. What's the Canadian Ticketmaster + surcharge + tax face price for these tickets? I don't think it's that much less than US$50 at recent exchange rates, and if it is I think the benefit of getting great seats is well worth any difference.

 

Just being honest here, dude sounds like he deserved what he got. Two types of people you don't mess with if you want to enjoy a concert: venue security, and border guards. Whatever you thought your "rights" were, you are being petulant. You'll know for next time.

 

(Dan, since you're clearly a bull and I'd rather not get the horns, allow me to clarify that my tongue is resting in my cheek.)

[redstripe]

it was ugly in the balcony. the people yelling for dan to sit were as annoying as dan and the ushers were. i stood behind the last row of seats until the shit cleared.

 

here's a video of the encore w/ feist. maybe this will make you feel better about your stand.

 

[newslang]

here's some photos from the balcony front row last night:

 

http://www.chromewaves.net/concertPhotos.php?concert=wilco6

[gaa5757]

You do realize that you sound like an unsocialized four-year-old?

 

I feel sorry for anyone who was sitting near you, who had to endure a long distraction while you argued with security while they were trying to listen to the music.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, 'Sonny..feeling' is taken away for sure with the mindset from some hear. You see, reasonable policy is one thing but then, why don't we discuss the ridiculously intrusive concert goer's sense of 'rule' imposed on others just rocking out? What is unresolved in their lives? Were they ever cool in someones mind? Do they contradict, what in fact, they want to be when they grow up? I don't even care to ponder; but I will give Sonnyfeeling kudos for apologizing to the self-centered dude who was taping/photographing most of the CBus concert on the 12th. I was two over from this insensitive photographer....witnessing in abject horror his diminutive son (nothing negative intended, it's a fact of quatitative genetic proportion) tender ear bones being brutally exposed to damaging decibles delivered from minstrel demigods. (Please refer to flatulence rules below as this raises the entire matter of ear protection, responsible parenting and 'rock infusion' disease (typically seen in adolescent males of european ancestry). Then there's jmbritt to continue this theme of 'customer-not-like-me' bashing. Read on, all i bet "Jeffrey" wants is for us to realize for very, very real that "love is all God's money" and it's everlasting, and ON and ON it goes. So, let's all listen to Jeff, some of the time as he's right some of the time.

 

In Topic: WILCO - 10/12/2009 Columbus, OH

Posted 16 Oct 2009

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

jmbritt and anyone else who fits the 'mold'

 

Dreamed about killing you again last night...and that was alright with me...or something like that....think about why I placed this up front at the end of this diddy, (jk to the legal hounds).

 

I likely was one of the people your referring too in the pit as in arm (jk, sensitive ones). I don't often, in fact, given my profession (without fame) spend time on these types of boards but did read through these posts for one reason. To read and remember what a fun time it was dancing, watching, singing, living during the entire Wilco concert in Columbus, Ohio, one Monday eve in October. Don't know if it's against "Jeff's" rules, the center's rules, special conditional algorithms or such but not against mine. I have to factually say, being of advanced age, 52yo, I still head to the trails, weights and all and tend to leave overweight guys half my age in quandry saying, "what am I doing wrong?" expressions. Just the facts, when I think of the potbellied folks within my eye shot during the concert. But I don't judge, just see a metabolic syndrome epidemic in OH and most of the U.S. None the less, when one dances (NOT playing air guitar, less Impossible Germany, Monday because they kicked a$$)and even apologizes when he taps the dancing (and I don't care if she's sweating) lady (can't call her a girl because she older than 19, a bit plump round the waist, etc. but she was dancing the majority of the night away, very cool and that is all that matters).

 

So, you dance, sing, apologize, dance, get pumped, "work out", appreciate brilliant lyrics woven into relatively complex composition(as I have across a wide variety of R&R groups that uncommonly consistently deliver so transparent, so cryptically colored, so etheral, so visceral lines like Mr. Jeffrey Tweedy's dactyllic style). Look mom, no tryannical thesaurus.

 

Wow, and what do you get from it? What do you get from the jmbritt's who think they have risen up as a "Cherry Ghost" to all those universal minded 'theologians? Nothing of value in all my concert goings over the years. But alas, he was right about one thing, my dear friend, who is one of the nicest people you would ever be lucky enough to call your best friend was hollering "Wilco" way too often for no real reason. Excitement? Misplaced etiquette? Of course, hammer him, who ever you may be with poor netiquette. But I was not able to really get him to realize everyone had already bought a ticket (or perhaps, borrowed one like the guy two over from me). You see, I apologize for offending anyone who is not optimal weight at Wilco concerts who threw their 'weight around', or the ones who hollered 'right in the ear' two seats over, or the guy who kept his girl friend directly in front of him, right in front of me leaving me with a paltry 18" x 24" window to 'enjoy' this concert for....only, a me.

 

Moving forward, such as no video policies, veryone needs to refrain, retain all internal forms of flatulence. If such forms enter a "Wilco Atmosphere" one needs to provide apology for farting during said event to a minimum of three seats by three seats from the "back seat" of origin. Moving forward, please note that both silent and audible farts will be monitored, isolated through available non-invasive technologies during future Wilco shows so the "gentleman" (e.g. jmbritt) who likely does not know when he farts can feel safe and secure. An ever insightful Wilco fan suggested placing such "No video taping" on both sides of entrance doors or better still, an entrance flip chart. Excellent! This behavioral misconduct monitoring notice will be added as well.

 

I find so many people so small and never self-directed to improve themselves. The addition by substraction crowd who don't really live, nor contribute but tend, tend (to be fair to the grey out there and real gradations of depression) to live only vicarious lives through ..."Jeff Tweedy's". It's so old as I begin to embrace 'late Fall'....come on adults your acting like grown ups, act your age get back to compassion and hope. .....I just want to rock in many forms when I am not 'operating on a lonely brain'.

[Al.Ducts]

[slice_oftheday]

I really cant understand that guy haha

[Mr. Heartbreak]

retain all internal forms of flatulence. If such forms enter a "Wilco Atmosphere" one needs to provide apology for farting during said event to a minimum of three seats by three seats from the "back seat" of origin. Moving forward, please note that both silent and audible farts will be monitored, isolated through available non-invasive technologies during future Wilco shows so the "gentleman" (e.g. jmbritt) who likely does not know when he farts can feel safe and secure.

Awesome!

[dsutkiewic]

Hey guys, just wanted to report back... looks like Wilco DOES care:

 

(from an email I received back)

 

Dan,

 

Thanks for supporting Wilco and letting us know about your recent experience at Massey Hall - that is totally lame and I'm sorry you had to leave so early in the set. This must be a venue policy that we weren't aware of or perhaps the security guard received a complaint from someone who couldn't see. Regardless, the band will be back for a more extensive tour of Canada in February, but I'm afraid they won't hit Toronto again: http://wilcoworld.net/shows/index.php

 

However, if you'd like to attend one of the other shows, I'm happy to put you down for a pair of tickets on us. The only GA shows on that run are Halifax and Montreal and I'm afraid I can't speak for venue policy for the others. Generally, people end up standing at seated Wilco shows so I suppose it depends on the crowd, too. Please accept our apologies - we hope to see you at a Wilco show soon! Let me know if you can make it to one of the dates in February.

 

All the best,

Emily

***********************************************

Emily Rosenblum

Tony Margherita Management

1140 Broadway #1603

New York, NY 10001

 

212.725.9192 (ph) 212.725.3075 (fx)

www.tmmchi.com

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm glad that worked out for you. The best I ever got was a month-long bus pass after sending a nastygram to MetroTransit when a driver passed my stop when it was -22 out. I would have preferred if they gave me Wilco tickets instead. Will you be taking them up on their offer?

[bobfrombob]

.....I'm afraid I can't speak for venue policy for the others.

There won't be any standing in the town that fun forgot

 

Happy and a little surprised that worked out for you. I watched most of the drama play out from my seat and I saw a security guard standing at the end of the row, trying to get you to sit. Regardless of venue policy, and despite what you think is right, I was pretty sure that wasn't going to end well for you. On the other hand, I'm a stander and have pushed the envelope myself from time to time. Jeff held an informal vote in Massey Hall in 2004 when I stood, at the very front, alone for one song and then some people joined me. The vote ended in more or less a tie so we sat. And the next time they played Massey, the sitting crowd was cursed by Jeff. There is no simple, "right" answer.