watchtower41 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 watch Caddyshack on DVD and get back to me on how much anything from film would benefit from a transfer to Blu ray. I wonder why Wizard of Oz is considered to be one of the better Blu Ray releases and transfers to this date? 70 year old film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I wonder why Wizard of Oz is considered to be one of the better Blu Ray releases and transfers to this date? 70 year old film. I have a sneaking suspicion IATTBYH would not get the same transfer-attention as Wizard of Oz. Perhaps that's why Wilco wanted to forego the release? As far as I'm concerned, they have their priorities lined up. Re-release on vinyl will do far more good for the World of Wilco than a Blu-Ray release. Likely in time, but not yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigshoulders Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 My earlier point about the sound improvements is that they would be uncompressed (think MP3 quality versus CD quality.) I don't think the goal with every blu-ray release is to make everything fit the 7.1 sound configuration. Rather, whatever the original sound mix given the release would be uncompressed and contain the full spectrum of data on the resulting blu-ray. What we have in the DVD version of IATTBYH is a compressed soundtrack in Dolby 2.0. It is compressed due to the limitations of the media. Some blu-rays (the painstakingly restored Wizard of Oz for example) was originally a Mono soundtrack. They've updated it, tastefully, to be in Dolby True HD 5.1 or Mono if you prefer. dead horse> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
watchtower41 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 My earlier point about the sound improvements is that they would be uncompressed (think MP3 quality versus CD quality.) I don't think the goal with every blu-ray release is to make everything fit the 7.1 sound configuration. Rather, whatever the original sound mix given the release would be uncompressed and contain the full spectrum of data on the resulting blu-ray. What we have in the DVD version of IATTBYH is a compressed soundtrack in Dolby 2.0. It is compressed due to the limitations of the media. Some blu-rays (the painstakingly restored Wizard of Oz for example) was originally a Mono soundtrack. They've updated it, tastefully, to be in Dolby True HD 5.1 or Mono if you prefer. dead horse> Yes, these factors would be the obvious reasons for a transfer to Blu Ray, even moreso than any potential video improvement. Nobody knows the full reason why the project was shelved/scratched even with some people pointing out the audio wouldn't transfer right, I remember the band being more concerned with the video and not being asked permission to re-release this movie with getting into issues of who actually owns the rights. That being said, I think "Ashes" could benefit much more from the Blu Ray treatment, and straight from the producers mouth, they pushed for it... I just don't think Nonesuch wants anything to do with it. 'Tis a shame especially with all the possibilities for music and sound on this format. Neil Young gets it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Strangely enough, there is a Blu-Ray listed on Amazon with a December 31, 2010 release date. I wonder if there is any validity to it: http://www.amazon.com/Trying-Break-Heart-Blu-Ray-Blu-ray/dp/B001GJ4TTM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 you don't get it. enjoy your new technology and all the glory it will clearly provide for everything. Apparently, I must not. What exactly is your opposition to a Blu Ray transfer of older movies? It sounds like you're saying that movies shot on film will see little or no benefit from a transfer to Blu Ray (which is 100% false). I'm not some sort of Sony hired Blu Ray shill - I don't even own a Blu Ray player. But it's completely 100% wrong to think that older movies cannot benefit from a Blu Ray release. One thing I forgot to mention earlier: aside from a higher resolution transfer, HD video on Blu Ray can also be much less compressed than DVD, so less chance of seeing compression artifacts. EDIT: This post does a lot better job explaining it than I can: I usually never post just lurk but had to get involved with this discussion since I am a video editor and in case anyone from the Wilco camp reads this thread. Let me just say that film be it 16mm or 35mm is superior to HD still to this day. There are now some HD cameras available that give almost as good of image quality as 35mm but those cameras are made by Panavision and are for very high budget movies. Watch Zodiac for an example of that camera. 16mm has a resolution of about 2k lines of resolution and 35mm has about 4k lines of resolution so even at 1080P the highest standard for video now, you are still only getting half the resolution compared to the theater and a screening from an actual release print. So releasing IATTBYH on Blu Ray would make sense. It's too bad it is such a poorly shot documentary to begin with and is actually notorious for that in filmmaking circles. I sometimes think Tweedy must have heard that which is why he shelved the VIC show Jones shot a couple years back. The clips on the website made sense why they did not choose to release that. Jones is one great photographer but not cinematographer.So I would think in fact that you most likely would just see a lot more grain and more out of focus shots than you probably noticed on DVD. Now the other advantage of Blu Ray is uncompressed audio and the band is right it was recorded only in stereo but was still compressed to Dolby Digital 2.0 for the DVD, which is like turning a WAV file into a MP3 so to have uncompressed audio would actually be the biggest upgrade and advantage which the band should care about. I am totally with Wilco on the cost of Blu Rays being a complete rip off because it is. Sony charges so much for the technology which is why the discs are so high but in fact it is just as easy to make a Blu Ray disc as a DVD just different encoding techniques. So if Plexi Film really wants people to purchase this title twice they should price it the same as the 2 disc DVD just like Criterion is doing for their Blu Ray releases. So I applaud Wilco for looking out for it's fans which is why this has been my favorite band since 96. The price should be the same especially for this release because Wilco is right and other than uncompressed audio the differences will be small. A lot of super 16mm looks great. Watch 28 Weeks Later to see good super 16. Sam Jones just shot this documentary very badly so nothing can be done about that. I just think a Blu Ray priced the same would be a release Wilco could get behind and it would be nice if Plexi Film did not try to gauge Wilco fans. No reason for this disc to be higher priced since I seriously doubt Criterion is taking a loss releasing their Blu Ray discs at the same price as the DVD. Sorry for the long post. I would like to see this released just not get ripped off on the Blu Ray. Hope my explanation clears the situation up a bit. The technical merits of a Blu Ray transfer are unquestionable. There have been some shitty Blu-Ray versions of older movies released, but that's just due to laziness/unwillingness to spend money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 There have been some shitty Blu-Ray versions of older movies released, but that's just due to laziness/unwillingness to spend money. I would rather unreleased vinyl see the light of day (which they did) and ensure that they keep providing goodies and freebies and all sorts of things that make Wilco awesome than dumping a bunch of money into an "awesome" transfer of a video that's already fine to me. If I want awesome Wilco in high-def, I go to a show. I trust them to know their market for goods enough to know that this wasn't a justifiable cost at that time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I would rather unreleased vinyl see the light of day (which they did) and ensure that they keep providing goodies and freebies and all sorts of things that make Wilco awesome than dumping a bunch of money into an "awesome" transfer of a video that's already fine to me. If I want awesome Wilco in high-def, I go to a show. I trust them to know their market for goods enough to know that this wasn't a justifiable cost at that time. That's fine...but that's not the point. The point is that the movie WOULD benefit from a Blu Ray transfer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 PLEASE Wilco...get with the HD program!! Actually, I thought this was the point of the thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Are either of you guys who are demanding Blu-Ray named Dave and known to leave comments on Plexifilm's site? Holy Mother of God..... --------------- Please release this already!!!!!! Come on….Blu-ray is the future!!!! I love this film and can’t wait for this to be on Blu-ray!!!! ** Note to Plexifilm: PLEASE be sure to include ALL the special features and bonus footage from the 2nd Disc!!!! Best,Dave in Virginia Comment by Dave in Virginia — January 8, 2009 @ 7:47 am How long does it take to re-release a product Plexifilm already owns???? By the sounds of things it was already produced as well. PLEASE RELEASE this MOVIE!!!! PLEASE!!!! PLEASE make sure the 2-Disc set is ALL included on one Blu-ray disc. Let’s Go!!!!! Comment by Dave in Virginia — February 20, 2009 @ 12:08 pm I guess the band won this argument. Very sad that Plexifilm can not release content that I assume they own. What happened to the all the blu-rays that were already manufactured?? The band seemed to be of the opinion that it was dipping into the fans pockets. Isn’t that the choice of a fan? Nobody from Plexifilm forces anyone to buy the blu-ray!! They are just providing an awesome movie via the best available media. Wake up WILCO!! Blu-ray is here to stay!! Comment by Dave in Virginia — April 22, 2009 @ 10:43 am Totally frustrating that here we are a year later and NO BLU-RAY release of this film yet. During the past year Wilco released yet another DVD ONLY release….Do they not get it? PLEASE RELEASE THIS FILM ALREADY!!! Comment by Dave in Virginia — October 19, 2009 @ 6:48 am Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Totally frustrating that we can not get this film on Blu-ray. Or any other Wilco/Jeff Tweedy film for that matter. Frankly, equally frustrating that Ashes was released as a DVD only film as well. PLEASE Wilco...get with the HD program!! Totally frustrating that here we are a year later and NO BLU-RAY release of this film yet. During the past year Wilco released yet another DVD ONLY release….Do they not get it? PLEASE RELEASE THIS FILM ALREADY!!! Comment by Dave in Virginia — October 19, 2009 @ 6:48 am Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 He also rated the Blu-Ray edition in the Amazon link Dude posted. If he doesn't get his way, the world may soon run out of puncuation!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doug C Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Though our levels of obsession clearly differ (understatement of the day), we all have our 'thing'. GTR-vibe Dave from Virginia happens to dig Blu-ray. I hope that it gets released so he can watch it in what would apparently be orgasmic delight. I've never understood audiophiles, videophiles, etc. I'm happy as long as it isn't distorted and I can make out the different instruments and see the movie clearly - yes, I know that I'd probably HEAR/SEE THEM EVEN BETTER and HAVE MY CILIA AND PHOTORECEPTORS GIVEN A RUB AND TUG with Blu-ray, et al. In all seriousness, keep fighting the good fight, GTR-vibe Dave from Virginia. After Plexifilm/Wilco give up the DVD ghost, how about focusing your energies on health care? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
isadorah Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Apparently, I must not. What exactly is your opposition to a Blu Ray transfer of older movies? It sounds like you're saying that movies shot on film will see little or no benefit from a transfer to Blu Ray (which is 100% false). But it's completely 100% wrong to think that older movies cannot benefit from a Blu Ray release. I think I've been pretty clear about it. Older movies can be transferred, if done properly will look fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to look or sound any better or phenomenal. just because you could doesn't mean you should. the band deemed no benefit from this transfer, so the artist has spoken. and i by chance agree with the artist in this matter. this is also about opinions, so ummm, thanks for letting me know i am 100% wrong and 100% false. time to go watch my analog tv with basic cable attached to it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I think I've been pretty clear about it. Older movies can be transferred, if done properly will look fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to look or sound any better or phenomenal. just because you could doesn't mean you should. the band deemed no benefit from this transfer, so the artist has spoken. and i by chance agree with the artist in this matter. this is also about opinions, so ummm, thanks for letting me know i am 100% wrong and 100% false. time to go watch my analog tv with basic cable attached to it. Even disregarding the Wilco angle, I think you severely underestimate the benefits of Blu-Ray to the look and sound of a film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I think I've been pretty clear about it. Older movies can be transferred, if done properly will look fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to look or sound any better or phenomenal. just because you could doesn't mean you should. the band deemed no benefit from this transfer, so the artist has spoken. and i by chance agree with the artist in this matter. this is also about opinions, so ummm, thanks for letting me know i am 100% wrong and 100% false. time to go watch my analog tv with basic cable attached to it. Obviously, you are (by your own admission in earlier threads) missing some of the basic knowledge required to understand the kind of benefits a Blu Ray transfer could bring. Just because there have been shitty Blu Ray transfers in the past does not mean that IATTBYH would have a shitty transfer. Also, Wilco is a group of musicians, not movie makers, they don't necessarily understand the benefits of Blu Ray either. Either way, they were speaking out about the PRICE of the disc and not the quality of the transfer (even though they did make the "grainy black and white comment," there is some misunderstanding here). There is no need to speak any further on this - there's obviously some sort of failure for you on a basic level as to understanding the benefits of Blu Ray (and technology), I recommend you do some research, and come back to this topic in about 6 months. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Just because there have been shitty Blu Ray transfers in the past does not mean that IATTBYH would have a shitty transfer. You said that would cost a lot of money and time to do a good transfer. Wilco might not be movie makers, but they do know a thing or two about budgets. What if they just don't think they want to spend the money on that, or don't think that spending 'X' amount of money that way will reach as many fans as spending 'X' some other way? Wilco are also not lawyers, accountants, or tour managers, but they seem to tackle those obstacles just fine with the help of enlisted professionals. I doubt they made the Blu-Ray decision on their own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rwilson580 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 ...Either way, they were speaking out about the PRICE of the disc and not the quality of the transfer (even though they did make the "grainy black and white comment," there is some misunderstanding here)... Actually the band's comments pretty much echo the post you were replying to. At the risk of getting beaten up myself: Without consulting us, the DVD company (not WB/Nonesuch) that released "I am trying to break your heart" is about to issue a Blu-Ray Edition which, no surprise, costs considerably more (nearly 2x) than the standard DVD. We're unsure as to the rationale for the release, given that the film was shot in beautiful grainy B&W and has a stereo-only audio track... there is, in our opinion, not much to be gained by spending the extra cash. It's your money... and in this case you should probably hang onto it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Again...you guys are missing the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is not whether Wilco SHOULD release it on Blu Ray. Whether or not it makes fiscal sense is entirely up to the band/management/record company. They're probably using some formula like $X put into transferring to HD - (number of predicted copies sold x profit per copy) that will determine whether or not they actually release it. But, it seems like someone made thought this was a good idea, because there was, at some point, an effort to release it on Blu Ray. Personally, I don't care whether it comes out or not. The political issues with the band speaking out against the Blu Ray release are another wrinkle that I'm ignoring here. What bothers me is the belief that a Blu Ray release would not provide any audio/video benefits. When I was talking about super expensive involved transfers, I was referring to older movies, where the print may have degraded, or there are other technical issues. Something like Star Wars, It's a Wonderful Life, or Wizard of Oz. Those are the kinds of movies where a transfer would cost a lot of money. To do a transfer of a movie like that, each frame of the movie has to be gone over and touched up. But, the results are usually amazing, with old movies looking like they did when they came out in the theatre. They not not have to go into this kind of detail for IATTBYH. I have no idea how much a decent HD transfer would cost for IAATBYH. However, it is a more recent movie, and it does not need the kind of restoration work something like Star Wars, Wizard of Oz or It's a Wonderful Life may need. When they did the initial transfer of the film to digital for DVD, they may even have done an HD transfer and scaled it down for DVD. If they already have an HD copy of the film from the original film transfer, it would make it even easier to do a Blu Ray release. They would have to fuck things up royally to do a bad transfer. But, it seems from other comments that I've read that whoever is doing the Blu Ray transfer cares, and wants to do a good job. From a viewer's perspective, the video would be improved by being in a higher resolution, and less compression - it would be the closest thing to watching it in a theatre. There may be artistic issues (grain, cameras being out of focus, etc.) that may be more clear in a Blu Ray release, but I can't really speak on those. Sound would also be improved - they could use audio that's less compressed, and even mix it into multi-channel audio if they chose to do so (although I believe they're leaving it in stereo). As a whole, the band wants to put out a quality product, I can see that, that's one of the reasons I like them. While they dabble in many areas, at the core, the band is musicians, and maybe don't have a complete technical understanding of what a Blu Ray transfer would entail. It seems like they are assuming that just because the movie is grainy black and white and stereo that a Blu Ray transfer is pointless. I took the quote to mean that they may not understand the benefit of a Blu Ray release for IATTBYH. However, they are not video technicians - there is not technical reason as to why a Blu Ray transfer would not look/sound better. There are technical people that have posted in this thread and in others that show, quite clearly, that a Blu Ray release would be beneficial. The people who are actually handling the Blu Ray release say it looks better. What more do you need? It seems like there are other issues blocking the Blu Ray release than purely technical ones - issues as to who owns the rights, whether the band wants it released, the issue of the band not being aware of a Blu Ray release, the price, etc. Those issues are irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. Obviously, you won't see the kind of benefit as to DVD vs Blu Ray that you would with a more modern, technically advanced film like Watchmen or the Dark Knight. You will also need an HDTV to even begin to understand the benefits. A proper sound system would also help. It may not be for everyone, but that's not what got me involved in this thread in the first place - the point is that it would look/sound better on Blu Ray (if handled properly). If the band doesn't want to release it, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't look/sound better. I'm pretty happy with my DVD copy of IATTBYH. Even if I watch it on an upscaling DVD player on an HDTV, it still looks pretty good, and I don't feel the need for a Blu Ray release. The DVD copy had a pretty good transfer, and it still holds up. I wouldn't be buying the IATTBYH Blu Ray. But, I can see why someone would want a Blu Ray copy, and the benefits from a proper Blu Ray transfer are undeniable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
isadorah Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Obviously, you are (by your own admission in earlier threads) missing some of the basic knowledge required to understand the kind of benefits a Blu Ray transfer could bring. Just because there have been shitty Blu Ray transfers in the past does not mean that IATTBYH would have a shitty transfer. Also, Wilco is a group of musicians, not movie makers, they don't necessarily understand the benefits of Blu Ray either. Either way, they were speaking out about the PRICE of the disc and not the quality of the transfer (even though they did make the "grainy black and white comment," there is some misunderstanding here). There is no need to speak any further on this - there's obviously some sort of failure for you on a basic level as to understanding the benefits of Blu Ray (and technology), I recommend you do some research, and come back to this topic in about 6 months. are you done yet? How about you provide this elusive data and research i apparently so desperately need to know about instead of continuing to ever so politely telling me I have no clue? it would save me 6 months worth of time and effort and it would also give you the opportunity to respond to me again so you can get the last word in...although you did say there is no need to speak any further on this...hmmmm... thank you rwilson580 and speedracer. I'm glad I'm not the only one that interpreted what is at issue the way I did. back to the color correction on digital images i was working on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Wow, he called you stupid. I missed that the first time through. back to the color correction on digital images i was working on. Oh snap! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 are you done yet? How about you provide this elusive data and research i apparently so desperately need to know about instead of continuing to ever so politely telling me I have no clue? it would save me 6 months worth of time and effort and it would also give you the opportunity to respond to me again so you can get the last word in...although you did say there is no need to speak any further on this...hmmmm... thank you rwilson580 and speedracer. I'm glad I'm not the only one that interpreted what is at issue the way I did. back to the color correction on digital images i was working on. I was a bit of a jackass, I apologize. But I still think I'm right . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I don't believe anyone ever stated you were wrong regarding Blu-Ray's technological superiority. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groo Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I don't believe anyone ever stated you were wrong regarding Blu-Ray's technological superiority. Sorry for the late reply, but I know a little bit more about this subject now, and can better explain what I was saying. Overall, the reason for using Blu Ray is pretty simple. Blu Ray lets you have higher resolution video than DVD. With DVD, the best you're going to see is 480p. With Blu Ray, you can easily have 1080p, and soon 4K. I Am Trying to Break Your Heart was filmed on B&W 16mm. If you can it in digitally, that's about 2K resolution. Of course, the more documentary nature of the film means you won't get quite as much clarity as you would something that's deliberately filmed for it. Let's say, minimal, they get a good 720p digital scan out of it. That's HD, that's still a lot better than the 480p of DVD. You're just going to get a much cleaner and clearer picture than the DVD, hands down, there's just more pixels. Here's a good visual breakdown: But that's just pixels. Blu Ray also has a better compression algorithm. DVD uses MPEG 2 compression, which is notoriously bad for grainy sources like IATTBYH. Blu Ray uses the much superior H.264 (aka MPEG-4). Just using this compression algorithm alone would mean a better picture. Back in 2008 I think they still may have used MPEG-2 for Blu Ray, it may not have made as much sense, but I definitely think it's time for a Blu Ray transfer of this movie. Plexifilm has said that when they initially made the DVD they scanned it in at more than just 480p, so tossing it on a Blu Ray wouldn't require that much work. Ideally at this point they could do a fancy Deluxe Edition Blu Ray with additional special features, etc. You can keep the stereo soundtrack, but if you wanted to get real fancy, you can have the band come in and help mix a fancy 7.1 soundtrack, but that's not really necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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