The New Atheists

[MattZ]

Creed is the uniting force on VC. I love it.

[Atticus]

In more bad news for gays, straights, atheists, theists and decent folk in general, Creed has apparently reunited. I think there is some language relating to this in Revelation.

 

I was kinda upset about that Uganda thing, but this will actually motivate me into action

[Atticus]

I love the power they give to homosexuals, and our apparent wiles - none of which it seems I have been bestowed. If it were that easy to convert someone, well, damn.

 

The Homosexual and You

[Good Old Neon]

Andrew Sullivan:

 

This is interesting:

 

Rick Warren And Uganda's Looming Gay Genocide

 

As reported in a March 29, 2008 story from the AllAfrica.com news service, in March 2008 Rick Warren attended a conference of Ugandan Anglican Bishops who were protesting the Church of England's tolerance for homosexuality. AllAfrica, reporting on his appearance, summarized Warren's quotes as homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right, and directly quoted Warren as stating, "We shall not tolerate this aspect at all."

 

The key involvement of Martin Ssempa in the bill, a close ally of Warren's (who has now distanced himself), is already known. I didn't realize that another key mover of the bill is Rick Warren's own mentor and dissertation adviser:

 

To little notice, a charismatic network overseen by Warren's doctoral dissertation advisor, C. Peter Wagner, has played a major role in politically organizing and inspiring the Ugandan legislators who have spearheaded the anti-gay bill. Both Wagner and Warren have designed elaborate infrastructures for blurring the lines between church and state. Wagner describes his movement as the “New Apostolic Reformation” and openly espouses his goals of reorganizing and mobilizing the church to take Christian “dominion” over government and society. Warren’s movement is described as a “second reformation” in the form of his P.E.A.C.E. plan, but his goals of rapid “expansion of the kingdom” in Uganda and elsewhere closely parallel those of Wagner's.

[M. (hristine]

You know the Episcopal church elected a second gay woman bishop, no? Just a little balance here.

 

Uganda has one of the worst human rights records in history. The LRA is responsible for the kidnapping of at the very least 20,000 children for use as soldiers, prostitutes and slaves. There are many accounts of children with open cuts on their arms filled with substances and bandaged over to stimulate them to fight like guerillas.

 

The LRA is one of the most despicable organizations in the world.

 

For any religious group to get in bed with the Ugandan government is political suicide.

[Ghost of Electricity]

Found this BBC article. Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere, I haven't seen it.

 

 

Atheist Richard Dawkins backs campaign to arrest Pope

 

Professor Dawkins said the UK should not pay for the Pope's visit

 

Leading atheist Richard Dawkins has backed a campaign to have the Pope arrested for "crimes against humanity" when he visits the UK later this year.

 

Professor Dawkins said he "whole-heartedly" backed the initiative led by atheist Christopher Hitchens.

 

UK human rights lawyers are preparing a case to charge Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

 

Dr William Oddie, former editor of The Catholic Herald, labelled it "lunatic".

 

Campaigners hope to cast a shadow over the Pope's planned visit to the UK in September - the first visit by a Pope since 1982.

 

Prof Dawkins wrote on his blog: "I am optimistic that we shall raise public consciousness to the point where the British government will find it very awkward indeed to go ahead with the Pope's visit."

 

And writing in the Guardian on Tuesday, columnist George Monbiot wrote: "Picture the pope awaiting trial in British prison, and you begin to grasp the implications of the radical idea that has never been applied: equality before the law."

 

The BBC's religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott said the anti-Pope campaign could be seen as a mischievous attempt to create an "air of criminality" around the Pope.

 

"The controversy over alleged Papal involvement in the cover-up of child sex abuse is providing atheists with a stick with which to beat religion," he said.

 

The Pope's visit was announced shortly before allegations surfaced that he had signed a letter which delayed the punishment of a paedophile priest in the US.

 

Legal state?

 

This followed a series of child abuse scandals involving the Catholic church in the US, the Irish Republic, Germany and Norway.

 

The Vatican has defended the Pope, saying the Pope is willing to meet more victims of clerical abuse, while the Church has published an internet guide as to how bishops deal with accusations of sexual abuse.

Pope Benedict XVI

The Vatican said the Pope would not resign over the scandal

 

Barrister Geoffrey Robertson and solicitor Mark Stephens are considering whether they could either ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope; launch their own civil action or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

 

Author Christopher Hitchens said he does not believe the Vatican to be a legal state which raises questions as to whether the Pope, as head of state, could claim diplomatic immunity.

 

He said: "The UN at its inception refused membership to the Vatican but has allowed it a unique "observer status", permitting it to become signatory to treaties such as the Law of the Sea and (ironically) the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and to speak and vote at UN conferences where it promotes its controversial dogmas on abortion, contraception and homosexuality."

 

The group have cited as precedent the recent case of Israel's former foreign minister Tzipi Livni, who cancelled a visit to London after a British judge issued an arrest warrant over her alleged involvement with the conflict in Gaza.

 

But Dr Oddie, former editor of The Catholic Herald, said the campaign demonstrated how "wonderfully lunatic" both Christopher Hitchens and Professor Dawkins were.

 

"What's lawful is what is lawfully agreed by lawful authorities, in this case Italian law - the government of Italy - and secondly, international law, determined by the United Nations. Both legal authorities accept the Vatican is a legal state.

 

"Christopher Hitchens is entitled to say it shouldn't be one, but he can't say it isn't one - it's like people in a lunatic society saying they are Napoleon," he said.

 

The Vatican has ruled out any possibility of a papal resignation over the scandal.

[bjorn_skurj]

Where's Henry VIII when you need him?

[Doug C]

Where's Henry VIII when you need him?

[bjorn_skurj]

Man - bariatric surgery has done WONDERS for him!

[uncool2pillow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADNesm6F27U

[Ghost of Electricity]

when i saw this thread revisited I thought Hitchens had died. I wonder how he's doing.

[dthedust]

id like to join this debate as a paralyzed man.they do not grow embryos to get stem cells,that was the problem in the 90s when science was only at the point of using embryonic stem cells.because of that the dickey/wickers amendment was passed banning the national institute of health from using governement funds to fund "any activity that will harm human embryos"{which came from a loud anti-abortion movement even though stem cells do not come from abortions}.the stem cell research enhancement act was passed by the house and the senate during bushs term but vetoed twice by him.now obamas executive order did pass but is getting a stay of cease funding by the supreme court.the only way any change will happen is repealing the dickey/wickers amendment, which with the current change in the house{and their misinformed view of where stem cells come from}will not happen.the dickey/wickers amendment fucks everything up,embryonic stem cells from abortions are the past{and inaccurate}, the scientific community thinks that IPS stem cells,which come from adult stem cells, are the future{nice run on sentence}.i think that stem cells are the most important biomedical research since the discovery of DNA is the basics of genetics.

most of you probably dont care about much of this,but you should.the list of fixable/curable diseases is enormous and reachable within our lifetimes.i do blame the christians in washington for holding this up in anyway.

that said, i do believe in a higher power.one that cares about us and grants us an afterlife.no.everyone wants meaning out of life,if you cant see the meaning of life around you, your blind.people shouldnt be sad about this,ill quote keanu reeves,"the universe wastes nothing".

i think this time will be remembered in history as a time of common sense,and the death of belief in miracles{biblical sense}.agree or disagree with dawkins and the rest,they have shed light on "the greatest show on earth", luckily were a part of it.

*anything misspellings or confusing data ive thrown out is due to 102 degree temp.

[dthedust]

countries like china{especially},south korea,india,uk,etc. are so far ahead of us that id expect some success in a couple years.human trials have begun,in the us,by way of companies looking to profit.i place no blame,the fact theyre still researching despite all the bitter partisanship in the governemnt/population.so when you need them expect to shell out some dough.personally,ill give anything and everything i have and will have to actually get my groove on at a wilco show again{standing}.i know this is a god debate but i wanted to throw out some other info for anyone curious.

also just use pascals wager-belief in god has everything to gain,and nothing to lose.just kidding,but people i know agree with this.

sidenote-christianity in america is ridiculous.jesus christ would not be a fan of our country or its economics.america is the biggest banana republic ever.if god existed he would smite us like sodom and gomorrah without a second thought.if your gonna be religous, id go with the most batshit looney religion available,possibly scientology.ok sorry for the rant

[Spawn's dad]

I had my VC pager set for this one.

[MarkyMark77]

As a minister, Wilco fan and intellectual, I get it: I understand atheism, I understand faith. I choose faith, but that doesn't mean I'm a blithering idiot.

 

My thing with all of this discussion is that, even the best-informed and intelligent minds on all sides have to admit that we don't really know everything, right? If history tells us anything, it tells us that schools of thought come and go, ebb and flow. Is the existence of a "creator" far more absurd than a "big bang"? To some, yes. Personally, I don't think so. Either way is a guess, although the former is grounded in faith, the latter grounded in science. It's very easy to relegate faith to being a tool or crutch of the uneducated, but that sells its history short. Likewise, it was very easy for faith to relegate science to witchcraft and paganism. I think that those who want faith OR science to explain everything miss the point.

 

I think the point with most people, and to echo what others have said, is that a real discourse that emanates not from superiority but education and understanding is what we need, not individuals propping up their arguments for the 1,000th time. I understand that Christians have been their own worst enemy at times, but my faith encourages me to be gracious and compassionate, not dogmatic and uncaring.

 

I'm a skeptic, for sure. There are days when I wonder about the existence of God. I wonder how life began, how life sustains, how synapses fire to make us who we are. I think it's clear that we're all more than the sum of our chemical reactions. And I think trying to figure that out, using faith, science, philosophy, etc., is great. But, I think that's the point: we should be trying to figure it out, not merely push an agenda.

 

What I've enjoyed about this thread is that it seems to be exactly that: trying to figure it out.

[dthedust]

There's no doubt some of the greatest/oldest religons are working with science in astronomy,astrophysics,microbiology,etc in finding the answer we've been looking for forever,the beginning.that said I think they'd all(religous scientists) a purely biblical belief is nonsense.but I'd agree without a doubt there is a higher power and scientific breakthroughs happening yearly bring us closer to god,in whatever form it is.

I live in Kansas city,which severly separates science and religion,so round these parts most Christians still believe in a 6000 year old planet.they won't debate the fact they just say it's what they believe.you do need skepticism/curiousity,I think,to have a more realisticpersonal view on your beliefs either way.

That said when my accident happened,my(former now)friend/roomate fell asleep driving throwing me 90 feet out the windshield of a truck as he ran away,uninjured,to dodge a DUI.it put doubts on the existence of any god in my head,but I know shit happens to everyone on earth and I'm no different.

The only qualm I have is about stem cell research.that dickey/wickers amendment is a byproduct of roe vs Wade.it seems like our govment wants to push scientific research back to give foreign countries the upperhand.and when religion is the cause of it,it leaves no one else to blame.granted I would know little or nothing if it wasn't what happened to me personally.all the misinformation about it(religion thinking were gonna grow babies on a farm for stem cells)blows my mind.if everyone anti stem cell research were in a position where they needed it or son/daughter for diagnoses of MS,spinal cord injury,alzheimers,etc etc it wouldn't still be a debate.I can guarantee if an anti were temporarily paralyzed for a month but told for their lifetime their mind would change in an blink of a tear filled eye.

I understand I'm a bit off topic,but religion has prevented a shitload of medical/scientific research in the past,but also a good enough amount in the present.the thought of ending my life because of this has entered my mind many times(which I never thought would have until 5 years ago)and that certainly doesn't sound like something religion albeit indirectly,should have had influence on.

Ok I shan't bring up stem cell in religion again.it's just the only direct impact it's had on my life,and millions of others in the USA.

PS-mr tweedy please do more solo shows.

[uncool2pillow]

dthedust, my heart goes out to you. My wife and I conceived children through In Vitro Fertilization. We had to let the doctor know our wishes with our unused fertilized eggs. We said donation or research is fine. I've heard some claim that going through conception, pregnancy and birth made them pro life. I had no such experience. I love my children dearly and I cannot exactly tell you when they became children. It certainly was sometime before their birth. But embryos are NOT children. I would be against harvesting embryos purely for research, but if we have legal in vitro, we're going to have unneeded embryos. Destroy them for nothing, or for science? The answer is, to my mind, is clear.

[MarkyMark77]

PS-mr tweedy please do more solo shows.

 

Yes, please!

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I have a motto I live by. It is if from John Lennon and it pertains to most, if all of life's circumstance:

 

Whatever gets you through the night...it's alright.

 

I'm trying really hard to cease being judgemental.

[dthedust]

Yeah the catholic church had/has a problem with IVF as well, as it only uses the best embryos and trashes the rest.I agree,why not use them for something good instead of throwing away the unused.certainly eventually it could help the cause of many diseases/injurys.I should throw in the differences of the Vatican Catholics opposed to American Catholics.one is against all stem cell,even adult stem cells I think,while americans are getting more factual info.congratulations on the success,I imagine there's nothing more satisfying/life changing then having a kid.

I just wanted to voice my anger at what are probably extremist Christians,not take over the debate.please continue.