The New Atheists

[Good Old Neon]

In the point of being fair, I don't believe Sarah ever said god *did* interfere with anything.

 

Her question, of course, but it's a point of annoyance for me in this thread that people seem to think ALL atheists think the same things and ALL Christians think the same things, and that who says what isn't all that important (when it's probably extra-important in this thread).

 

I was referring to this:

 

Sarah

 

For me, the debate about whether or not God exists in non-existant, because I have seen His work in others lives, and most remarkably my own. It would be easy to write a lot of things off as "fate" or "circumstance", but that's where faith comes in, right?

[Guest Speed Racer]

I was referring to this:

 

That doesn't really have anything to do with "acts of god" like natural disasters or anything like that, and not least of all babies being bayonetted. What I take that to mean is that god, once accepted into a person's life, has worked through them and personally transformed them. Not like, "omigod, like, this girl was like, TOTALLY taken over by, like, god, and drove her car into a parking space LOL!"

 

Edited to add: You'll see this still fits nicely with the free will argument - according to this schema, god may well do his work among non-believers, but unless they choose to accept these phenomena, feelings or circumstances as acts of a Christian god, then they might not hardly notice them, or care.

[Good Old Neon]

That doesn't really have anything to do with "acts of god" like natural disasters or anything like that, and not least of all babies being bayonetted. What I take that to mean is that god, once accepted into a person's life, has worked through them and personally transformed them. Not like, "omigod, like, this girl was like, TOTALLY taken over by, like, god, and drove her car into a parking space LOL!"

 

Edited to add: You'll see this still fits nicely with the free will argument - according to this schema, god may well do his work among non-believers, but unless they choose to accept these phenomena, feelings or circumstances as acts of a Christian god, then they might not hardly notice them, or care.

 

I would agree if not for the use of “fate” and “circumstance”, which, to me, suggests that god stepped in to make a bad situation better, or in someway changed the outcome of something or other.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I would agree if not for the use of “fate” and “circumstance”, which, to me, suggests that god stepped in to make a bad situation better, or in someway changed the outcome of something or other.

 

"Make a bad situation better" - you're still assuming, then, that Christians think their god is all candy and roses and unicorns, which is hardly the case. I'm curious as to why you keep doing that? Anyway...

 

Many Christians interpret tragedy, too, as an opportunity - not as a bitch-slap from god, but as a shift in consciousness on the part of the believer - to become closer to god. The "fate" or "circumstance" that god is responsible for is not that situation but the awakening that takes place - at least, that is how I was always taught/how I always heard the situation explained as a youth.

[Good Old Neon]

"Make a bad situation better" - you're still assuming, then, that Christians think their god is all candy and roses and unicorns, which is hardly the case. I'm curious as to why you keep doing that? Anyway...

 

Many Christians interpret tragedy, too, as an opportunity - not as a bitch-slap from god, but as a shift in consciousness on the part of the believer - to become closer to god. The "fate" or "circumstance" that god is responsible for is not that situation but the awakening that takes place - at least, that is how I was always taught/how I always heard the situation explained as a youth.

 

I’m not suggesting that all Christians view god as a super nice Santa Clause type. The truth is, neither of us knows what Sarah meant when she said “I have seen His work in others lives, and most remarkably my own. It would be easy to write a lot of things off as "fate" or "circumstance", but that's where faith comes in, right?” – I’m guessing it relates, at least in part, to both of our interpretations.

 

More specifically, I was referring to situations in which, say, a person claims that god interceded and cured their cancer – an unambiguous statement that leaves little, if anything, to interpretation. I agree with your interpretation, but you’ll have to concede that it is not uncommon for those who believe in a personal god to also believe that at times, he really does change outcomes, which, I think they call prayer. Sure, people pray for strength and perseverance, but they also pray for direct, heavenly intervention.

[M. (hristine]

The problem isn’t so much the followers, it’s the ideology. The bible - among other tracts - is desperately outdated, and followers who take their cues from these texts are basically subscribing to a 2000 + year old book (or books) that maybe doesn’t work so well in dealing with contemporary issues like same sex marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc. If one is to take the teachings of the bible literally, as was the case throughout most of our history, (and still is in some parts) who can be blamed for taking a dim view of same sex marriage, abortion, stem cell research, other, “false” religions, etc - especially when the reward for independent thought and action is an eternity in hell? Stories such as the ark and Adam and Eve were taken literally up until it became apparent, through the use of science, that these stories are just that, stories. Then, and only then did they take the form of metaphors – which is where religion finds itself now, spouting a limp, watered down sort of humanism.

 

I’m not suggesting we do away with religion, but many people are held prisoner by its more dogmatic points of view. In much of Europe, where there is a larger secular population, a higher percentage of that population is ok with stem cell research, same sex marriage, reproductive rights, etc – and where it’s not, what do you think is largely responsible for that attitude? If groupthink is the problem, then the ideology upon which the groupthink is founded is a large part of the problem.

 

Last year, the Vatican’s official astronomer decreed that it is ok to believe that life exists on other planets, and if it were found, it would not contradict the catholic faith – which, until last year, it pretty much would. Why, I wonder, probably as a result of finding water on Mars, which increases the likelihood of finding evidence of life, current or much more likely, fossilized. Groupthink is not responsible for the Catholic Church’s prior belief, and by extension, many of its followers, but the text upon which it rests is.

A few thoughts...

I agree that many modern day religions are thick with dogma. The unfortunate part of modern religious texts is not that they are outdated, but that are not outdated enough. The rigorous mystical maps of practice which are astoundingly similar in all religions, have in many cases been lost to dogmatic rewrites. However, throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't make logical sense to me.

 

Anytime you assemble bureaucracies to foster change, progress is going to be painfully slow for some, and so disconcerting for others that they will never become accustomed to the change. Stem cell research, abortion and any other questions of medical ethics must be approached slowly and thoughtfully. There are serious repercussions to scientific breakthroughs that should be weighed with utmost care. I'm still not sure whether legalizing cloning was a good idea.

 

Many people are prisoners of dogma? So what. Some people are dogmatic and that environment works for them. The Catholic church produced a bunch of pedophiles. Horrifying the repercussions that will be felt for generations to come. The monastic traditions of the Catholic church have also produced some of the most astounding mystical writings of the ages, for which I am grateful. My point is there is good and bad to all human endeavor.

 

For you to say, ..."which is where religion finds itself now, spouting a limp, watered down sort of humanism", is misinformed rhetoric. While one can easily find such religions, it is by no means the entirety of the story.

[Guest Speed Racer]

More specifically, I was referring to situations in which, say, a person claims that god interceded and cured their cancer – an unambiguous statement that leaves little, if anything, to interpretation. I agree with your interpretation, but you’ll have to concede that it is not uncommon for those who believe in a personal god to also believe that at times, he really does change outcomes, which, I think they call prayer. Sure, people pray for strength and perseverance, but they also pray for direct, heavenly intervention.

 

A lot of people do, and that's true. I'm curious as to what Sarah will say when she wanders back into this thread, but my primary point I guess is that it is entirely possible that her statement had nothing to do with the heavily interventionist god that a lot of people pray to.

 

As for what M. Chris said, I've always thought that one of the Bible's biggest weaknesses is its length. You can find a statement somewhere in that book to agree with just about anything you want to say - true of most religious texts, of course. A lot of people (Christian and otherwise) forget that the Bible is an anthology of books, and that a lot of books where actually left out of it. I took some mandatory religious (read: Lutheran theology) classes in college, and was simply amazed at the rich history of the Bible - truly remarkable. I mean, I knew it had to be assembled somehow, but I always thought that was one of those things we might never know. It was actually pretty fun to hear about (not least of all because my professor resembled the excitable, puffy-white-beard God of Old Testament).

[Atticus]

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if this point has been raised, but it should be noted that most spiritual people truly following the tenets of their faith do not feel the need to advertise or promote themselves. what I mean is that the religious caricatures one sees in the media shouldn't be taken as trustworthy examples of the many spiritual people in the world who do wonderful things for themselves and others.

[bjorn_skurj]

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if this point has been raised, but it should be noted that most spiritual people truly following the tenets of their faith do not feel the need to advertise or promote themselves. what I mean is that the religious caricatures one sees in the media shouldn't be taken as trustworthy examples of the many spiritual people in the world who do wonderful things for themselves and others.

From the Gospel according to St. Matthew:

 

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

[Guest Speed Racer]

From the Gospel according to St. Matthew:

 

Pretty sure Muslims also have a thing about wanting to convert people...

 

Also, members of AA/NA 12-step programs, "carrying the message."

 

Edited for clarification: If you like what your spiritual practice is doing for you, you're naturally going to want to help someone else feel the same way you do. I'd love to hear from someone about a religion or spiritual program that actively discourages new members of all kinds.

[bjorn_skurj]

Yes - Christianty and Islam are both expansionist, which has led to, uhh, some problems, though I will say that religion in many cases is something which people who want to fight with each other over resources and land use as a patina.

[Basil II]

When I die......I wish to hear...."Polonaise" from Antionin Dvorak's "Rusalka" opera

in my post mortem ears......

 

-robert

[SarahC]

If God is not responsible for man’s acts against man, and it’s all freewill, why does he intercede on some occasions, usually in rather mundane affairs, but not others, say, in Serbia, where infants were tossed in the air to be caught upon bayonets?

 

I believe that He knows about everything. Everything that happens in this world good or bad is known by God. God allows us the ability to disregard his commandments, and many people turn away from His truth every single second of every single day. The atrocities in the world are a result of people who are very far away from God. Such as the babies you mentioned in Serbia. Scripture tells that acts such as that are abhorred by God, and those people will have to answer to Him when the time comes. I can't say why God does or does not interfere in such things, because I am not God.

 

It all goes back to the story in Genesis, where Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, and as a result man was separated from God. Before that man walked hand in hand with God, and the relationship was so close, it was the most intimate thing imaginable. After Eve disobeyed God the entire human race became filthy and separated from God. God became so angry with how disgusting we were apart from him he wiped everything out (the story of Noah's Ark). Then when Christ came and died for our sins He restored our relationship with God. He was the missing link, and because He died all our sins were wiped away. Now, that's not to say all humanities atrocities were wiped away. Only those who believe... the people who have not accepted Christ are don't have the obligation to live as most believers do. Therefore, lots of people do terrible things, because they do not know the overwhelming love God has for them.

 

Now, this is not to say that believers are not without sin. In fact, the opposite is true. Believers are called to recognize their sin problem, and repent sincerely and often. I am the first to admit that I have a huge sin problem, and that fact makes me feel terrible, BUT because Christ died to atone for those sins, I am forgiven, and God's grace is bestowed.

 

Plus, you can't forger there is evil in the world (Satan) trying to undermine all the wonderfully good things God is doing, and I do believe 100% that he is out there, and real, and scary as all get out. p

 

And what of natural disasters that regularly wipe out scores and scores of individuals – if he is responsible for the earth and all its beauty, is he also responsible for its unstable plates, weather, etc?

 

Yes, He is. I can't explain it other than, this world, is His, and He allows things to happen for a reason. I can't explain what that reason is, again, because I am not God. A friend of mine explained it to me in this way a few weeks ago- it's as if the entire world is a tapestry, and we as humans are only able to see the back side of that tapestry. Everything is all jumbled up and a huge mess to our eyes, and we are only able to make a little bit of sense out of it in our limited time here on earth. God, however, sees the tapestry from the front, and sees the beauty in all things He creates.

 

 

Do you believe God has a plan for us – and if so, is that not a form of determinism, and if everything is predetermined, where does that leave freewill? If God’s plan is for me to die at the hands of a co-worker, in a hail of bullets, did the shooter act freely, or was he simply playing a role in God’s plan?

 

I can think of no better way to explain this than to sort of paraphrase C.S. Lewis.

 

In CS Lewis's book Mere Christianity, He explains that God's time table is NOTHING like ours. We can't even really understand it, because God knows everything that was, has been or will be. Think of it this way-- God is like the author of a book. He has characters, and He spent time carefully molding them and shaping them, and He knows every little thing about these characters. He know what makes them tick inside and out.

 

Even if you don't believe in God I recommend reading Mere Christianity, because it can shed a tremendous amount of light on the Christian worldview

 

God knows and knew all humanity before the foundations of the world. He knows that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Hence the word- omnipotent. All knowing. God certainly gives us the ability to make up our own minds about things, and sometimes we won't go in the way He would have liked (for instance, committing a sin), and that's all because we are human.

 

We are all fallen, and gross, at the end of the day nobody is better than anybody else. The wonderful thing about it is that if a person is willing to accept Christ, they find a salvation and a love beyond anything imaginable beforehand.

 

Granted, everything I just said is coming at you from a Christian worldview, so feel free to nit-pick it apart. I can say everything I typed I believe 100% with my whole being.

[Moss]

We must be no more than Bacteria in God's eyes. Why would he even deal with us?

 

Part of the problem I have with all the arguments is that people seem to know an awful lot about god until you get to a question that is too hard to answer. Then it becomes "God's will" or "we can't begin to understand it".

 

I do admire your passion for the subject though Sarah!

[SarahC]

We must be no more than Bacteria in God's eyes. Why would he even deal with us?

Because He LOVES us. He created us to be an extension of His own image. John Piper talks a lot about how God really is a bit of a hedonist, and takes delight in al His creation. A lot of Christians tend to forget that God created humanity to be a reflection of himself in the very beginning, but because of terrible sin, we are waaaaay far away from that, every one of us is. Even the person who is front row in church every single day is still a million miles away from what God originally intended humanity to me.

 

Also, as far as the "I can't explain it" bit goes, it is true. I think God would be very, very boring if He allowed us to know every single intricate thing about why He does what He does. In all honesty, the thought of knowing all that scares the crap out of me, because God is the most powerful thing in the entire world. His mystery is part of the romance He wants to nurture with belivers. I can understand why a person who doesn't believe in God would want to have everything explained, but I don't think God WANTS us to know everything. That's part of what makes Him so amazing to me, is that I am NEVER going to understand Him completely, until at last I am at His feet in Heaven. But it's those little things I discover about Him every single day that keep reaffirming my faith. I think the same could be said for a lot of believers.

 

I must admit, I am surprised that some of the other Christians on the board haven't said a whole lot yet.... i'm not trying to be brash about it or convert anybody, just sort of explain things from the opposite side of the atheist spectrum. However, if anybody wants to know more feel free to PM!

[Good Old Neon]

I believe that He knows about everything. Everything that happens in this world good or bad is known by God. God allows us the ability to disregard his commandments, and many people turn away from His truth every single second of every single day. The atrocities in the world are a result of people who are very far away from God. Such as the babies you mentioned in Serbia. Scripture tells that acts such as that are abhorred by God, and those people will have to answer to Him when the time comes. I can't say why God does or does not interfere in such things, because I am not God.

 

It all goes back to the story in Genesis, where Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, and as a result man was separated from God. Before that man walked hand in hand with God, and the relationship was so close, it was the most intimate thing imaginable. After Eve disobeyed God the entire human race became filthy and separated from God. God became so angry with how disgusting we were apart from him he wiped everything out (the story of Noah's Ark). Then when Christ came and died for our sins He restored our relationship with God. He was the missing link, and because He died all our sins were wiped away. Now, that's not to say all humanities atrocities were wiped away. Only those who believe... the people who have not accepted Christ are don't have the obligation to live as most believers do. Therefore, lots of people do terrible things, because they do not know the overwhelming love God has for them.

 

Now, this is not to say that believers are not without sin. In fact, the opposite is true. Believers are called to recognize their sin problem, and repent sincerely and often. I am the first to admit that I have a huge sin problem, and that fact makes me feel terrible, BUT because Christ died to atone for those sins, I am forgiven, and God's grace is bestowed.

 

Plus, you can't forger there is evil in the world (Satan) trying to undermine all the wonderfully good things God is doing, and I do believe 100% that he is out there, and real, and scary as all get out. p

 

 

 

Yes, He is. I can't explain it other than, this world, is His, and He allows things to happen for a reason. I can't explain what that reason is, again, because I am not God. A friend of mine explained it to me in this way a few weeks ago- it's as if the entire world is a tapestry, and we as humans are only able to see the back side of that tapestry. Everything is all jumbled up and a huge mess to our eyes, and we are only able to make a little bit of sense out of it in our limited time here on earth. God, however, sees the tapestry from the front, and sees the beauty in all things He creates.

 

 

 

 

I can think of no better way to explain this than to sort of paraphrase C.S. Lewis.

 

In CS Lewis's book Mere Christianity, He explains that God's time table is NOTHING like ours. We can't even really understand it, because God knows everything that was, has been or will be. Think of it this way-- God is like the author of a book. He has characters, and He spent time carefully molding them and shaping them, and He knows every little thing about these characters. He know what makes them tick inside and out.

 

Even if you don't believe in God I recommend reading Mere Christianity, because it can shed a tremendous amount of light on the Christian worldview

 

God knows and knew all humanity before the foundations of the world. He knows that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Hence the word- omnipotent. All knowing. God certainly gives us the ability to make up our own minds about things, and sometimes we won't go in the way He would have liked (for instance, committing a sin), and that's all because we are human.

 

We are all fallen, and gross, at the end of the day nobody is better than anybody else. The wonderful thing about it is that if a person is willing to accept Christ, they find a salvation and a love beyond anything imaginable beforehand.

 

Granted, everything I just said is coming at you from a Christian worldview, so feel free to nit-pick it apart. I can say everything I typed I believe 100% with my whole being.

 

Responding to these sorts of posts is a no win situation, as any honest response on my part will come across as rude and disrespectful, and since you’ve replied thoughtfully, honestly, I don’t want to be disrespectful. With that said, for now, I will just say this:

 

Pretty much everything that was once accepted as biblical fact has been proven false – man was not created, he evolved (the same goes for the earth’s geology) the age of the earth, billions of years, rather than thousands, the sun does not revolve around the earth, it is quite the other way around, germ theory, prayer heals, when in fact it does not, mental illness does not result from demon possession etc etc etc on and on and on, with one exception, god himself – a being for which zero evidence exists – and the only evidence in favor of his existence, is the same book that has been proven wrong time and time again. Fantastic claims require an equal amount of evidence, and that evidence simply does not exist – not a shred. You can point to personal experience, but human perception is woefully unreliable, and cannot be used as evidence of his existence.

 

I’ll end with a quote from Hitchens:

 

…mighty scholars may have written many evil things or many foolish things, and been laughably ignorant of the germ theory of disease or the place of the terrestrial globe in the solar system, let alone the universe, and this is the plain reason why there are no more of them today, and why there will be no more of them tomorrow. Religion spoke its last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago: either that or it mutated into an admirable but nebulous humanism, as did, say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a brave Lutheran pastor hanged by the Nazis for his refusal to collude with them. We shall have no more prophets or sages from the ancient quarter, which is why the devotions of today are only the echoing repetitions of yesterday, sometimes ratcheted up to screaming point so as to ward off the terrible emptiness.

 

While some religious apology is magnificent in its limited way— one might cite Pascal—and some of it is dreary and absurd—here one cannot avoid naming C. S. Lewis—both styles have something in common, namely the appalling load of strain that they have to bear. How much effort it takes to affirm the incredible! The Aztecs had to tear open a human chest cavity every day just to make sure that the sun would rise. Monotheists are supposed to pester their deity more times than that, perhaps, lest he be deaf. How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin? How many needless assumptions must be made, and how much contortion is required, to receive every new insight of science and manipulate it so as to "fit" with the revealed words of ancient man-made deities? How many saints and miracles and councils and conclaves are required in order first to be able to establish a dogma and then—after infinite pain and loss and absurdity and cruelty—to be forced to rescind one of those dogmas? God did not create man in his own image. Evidently, it was the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilization. Past and present religious atrocities have occurred not because we are evil, but because it is a fact of nature that the human species is, biologically, only partly rational. Evolution has meant that our prefrontal lobes are too small, our adrenal glands are too big, and our reproductive organs apparently designed by committee; a recipe which, alone or in combination, is very certain to lead to some unhappiness and disorder. But still, what a difference when one lays aside the strenuous believers and takes up the no less arduous work of a Darwin, say, or a Hawking or a Crick. These men are more enlightening when they are wrong, or when they display their inevitable biases, than any falsely modest person of faith who is vainly trying to square the circle and to explain how he, a mere creature of the Creator, can possibly know what that Creator intends.

[SarahC]

Either way, this can go on for ages, so let's just chalk it up and agree to disagree. Nothing I can say can make you believe, GON, and nothing you can say can make me disbelieve.

[Guest Speed Racer]

But what's wrong with believing? Not on the level of holy wars, I mean, but on the level of Sarah or anyone at any church in your neighborhood? You don't need religion to brainwash, and you don't have to have been brainwashed in order to believe. Homophobia and political conservativism exist among the secular, and general assholeishness smites us all from time to time. So what do you care, GON, that there's legions of evidence that god doesn't exist? What do you care that a few miles from your house during the week, people are sharing hot dish and singing songs and tithing hosting food drives because of a book you don't like?

 

As for your quote from Hitchens, one part strikes me: "How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin?"

 

Now, I am not a Christian, and I don't consider myself a believer. But I think a decent human being can discern that they don't know what the fuck's going on in this world, but as a human on this earth, you're a part of this world. You can call it a divine plan if you like, you can call it chaos, you can call it just what it is, but it's the same thing. Does it matter how you rationalize it? Will someone's vanity transform that much simply because of religion? Everything you've said so far is just as, if not more self-aggrandizing than many of the claims you attribute to Christians, based on what you've said and based on the quotes you choose to use - that you know for certain that there ISN'T a plan, and that everything that people you haven't even spoken to believe is wrong. You don't just consider what you know about yourself when you consider a divine plan - you consider that you know the fate of the world.

 

Are you immune from guilt and anxiety in your life simply because you don't choose to classify it as sin, and because you don't believe you will be judged by a maker? Is living a good life easier simply because you don't believe there's a devil to tempt you? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't need dogma to make me squirm about some of the things I've done in my life.

[SarahC]

I was discussing the Serbia question with a friend of mine who is in bible school, and this is what he said:

 

With the initial question about God not being involved with the children in Serbia I would say that God has foreordained all those acts to happen. God is all sovereign and we know that all things that happen are meant to glorify God and through all things (whether good or evil) God is still in control. A great sermon by John Piper is "Is God less glorious because He ordain evil be?"

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1998/1476_Is_God_Less_Glorious_Because_He_Ordained_that_Evil_Be/

 

It's great because he explains God sovereignty and man's responsibility to sin. In this article/sermon he pulls out a quote from Charles Spurgeon which says "What is fate? Fate is this - Whatever is, must be. But there is a difference between that and Providence. Providence says, Whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. . . . There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man." I hope this helps.

 

Also, I wasn't going to, but I am gonna go there... when GON brought up the thing about time, how the world is millions of years old and such, I will agree with that, BUT who is to say that's God's timetable? For God a million years could be a day, we don't know... and as far as evolution is concerned, there is still a missing link. Plus, I think that God has a and in the links that we do see.

 

here's a really good video that responds to a lot of the points GON brought up:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGospelCoalition#p/search/4/KWY7vi5NRq8

 

and another:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGospelCoalition#p/search/8/sOusFD9PnsA

[Good Old Neon]

But what's wrong with believing? Not on the level of holy wars, I mean, but on the level of Sarah or anyone at any church in your neighborhood? You don't need religion to brainwash, and you don't have to have been brainwashed in order to believe. Homophobia and political conservativism exist among the secular, and general assholeishness smites us all from time to time. So what do you care, GON, that there's legions of evidence that god doesn't exist? What do you care that a few miles from your house during the week, people are sharing hot dish and singing songs and tithing hosting food drives because of a book you don't like?

 

As for your quote from Hitchens, one part strikes me: "How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin?"

 

Now, I am not a Christian, and I don't consider myself a believer. But I think a decent human being can discern that they don't know what the fuck's going on in this world, but as a human on this earth, you're a part of this world. You can call it a divine plan if you like, you can call it chaos, you can call it just what it is, but it's the same thing. Does it matter how you rationalize it? Will someone's vanity transform that much simply because of religion? Everything you've said so far is just as, if not more self-aggrandizing than many of the claims you attribute to Christians, based on what you've said and based on the quotes you choose to use - that you know for certain that there ISN'T a plan, and that everything that people you haven't even spoken to believe is wrong. You don't just consider what you know about yourself when you consider a divine plan - you consider that you know the fate of the world.

 

Are you immune from guilt and anxiety in your life simply because you don't choose to classify it as sin, and because you don't believe you will be judged by a maker? Is living a good life easier simply because you don't believe there's a devil to tempt you? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't need dogma to make me squirm about some of the things I've done in my life.

 

As I’ve stated on numerous occasions, I don’t particularly care what someone chooses to believe, provided they don’t attempt to legislate or use violence to express their beliefs. Which is where we find ourselves today, with more than half the country obstructing civil rights on religious grounds, based primarily on a few hand picked quotes from the bible. I won’t apologize for finding that insane and entirely unacceptable. Nor will I apologize for feeling the same way with regards to using religion to obstruct stem cell research, among a host of other issues.

 

With that said, I’m not suggesting Sarah falls into this camp.

 

As for my responses to Sarah, of course I’m going to bring up certain points having to do with evidence and so forth, as our discussion relates entirely to religion. She has made some general criticisms and asked questions related to why I, among others, do not believe, I think it only fair that I respond in kind. She has provided responses to back up why she is as equally exasperated with my beliefs as I am of hers. Frankly, I don’t see why you even care that I have chosen to express my opinion in a thread devoted to discussing religion. I enjoy having my beliefs and opinions challenged, and based on what I know of you, I get the sense you do as well – and, since she chose to into this forum, I’m guessing Sarah feels the same way.

 

I don’t claim to know the ultimate fate of the universe, or why we’re here, but if we are going to attempt to answer those sorts of questions, assuming they can be answered, science, and not ancient theology, will be more likely to provide them, the answers.

 

Question – do you believe the devil is responsible for all or most of the bad things that happen, if not, rather than attribute all that bad shit to a fictional character, doesn’t it more sense to try to get to the bottom of why we often treat each other so poorly, than chalk it up to evil? Where does that get us? How does that get us closer to a greater understanding of human behavior? If someone didn’t come along to challenge the idea that mental illness requires medical treatment, and not an exorcist, it’s possible we might still be treating schizophrenia with crucifixes and holy water. The same could be said of disease.

 

Again, individuals are free to choose what they want to believe, but at the same time, like the single drop of water that contributes to a river, likeminded believers often get together and act or vote in ways that are detrimental to others. This is not unique of course, but religion has a power all its own – and that power often needs to be challenged.

 

Now, is that some rambling or what?

[yermom]

But what's wrong with believing?

GON touched on this but I'd like to answer too. "Believing" bothers me a bit because it seems to hinder the search for truth. If there are serious irrefutable answers to the "big questions" we'll never find them if we all decide to settle on "faith" and stop looking, stop investigating, stop searching for truth. I'd like us to keep looking until we find better explanations than "I believe..." or "the Bible says..." y'know?

[Winston Legthigh]

GON touched on this but I'd like to answer too. "Believing" bothers me a bit because it seems to hinder the search for truth. If there are serious irrefutable answers to the "big questions" we'll never find them if we all decide to settle on "faith" and stop looking, stop investigating, stop searching for truth. I'd like us to keep looking until we find better explanations than "I believe..." or "the Bible says..." y'know?

That's a cop out. There are many researchers at the forefront of physics theory that are devout believers. They're going directly after the "big questions"

 

Curiosity is its own thing, and can't be denied. Ask Eve.

[Good Old Neon]

That's a cop out. There are many researchers at the forefront of physics theory that are devout believers. They're going directly after the "big questions"

 

Curiosity is its own thing, and can't be denied. Ask Eve.

 

True, but they’re using science, not scripture.

[Guest Speed Racer]

As for my responses to Sarah, of course I’m going to bring up certain points having to do with evidence and so forth, as our discussion relates entirely to religion. She has made some general criticisms and asked questions related to why I, among others, do not believe, I think it only fair that I respond in kind. She has provided responses to back up why she is as equally exasperated with my beliefs as I am of hers. Frankly, I don’t see why you even care that I have chosen to express my opinion in a thread devoted to discussing religion. I enjoy having my beliefs and opinions challenged, and based on what I know of you, I get the sense you do as well – and, since she chose to into this forum, I’m guessing Sarah feels the same way.

 

I didn't mean to imply at all that you shouldn't be responding to Sarah's posts, since you should of course be discussing religion in the religion thread. I was just pointing out the futility of saying that someone is crazy/self-centered/vain if they declare god has a plan for them when you yourself saying that there is NO god and there is NO plan and YOU KNOW THAT FOR SURE is equally as crazy/self-centered/vain.

 

It doesn't matter whether anyone attributes sin to satan or a fictional character or what have you, so long as they are committed to getting to the root of the evil - something that secular people are no more adept at doing than the faith-bound. One could argue that certain therapists/therapy regimens are the secular holy water - symbolic in nature and wholly useless as a means of healing or discerning. Same goes for medication - just because you're taking it, just because you're changing your body's chemistry, does not mean that you actually need it or that you're actually changing the chemicals that need to be augmented to achieve health. Further, I don't doubt you believe that certain ancient meditative/formerly-religious-based practices are not without merit insofar as at least mental health is concerned.

 

Marital counseling, often conducted by clergy and other religious workers, is based on the idea of getting to the root of human behaviors to creater a deeper understanding. Sure, there's a matter of faith associated with religious-based marital counseling, but so what, if it contributes to a lasting, honest, intimate marital relationship? If a woman seeks the counsel of her pastor/rabbi as she suffers from post-partum depression, is that not better than seeking no help at all?

 

Forgive me for not having numbers handy, but I'm pretty sure that scientific studies have shown that families active in religious communities (ancient theologies, let's say) are either healthier/happier or as healthy/happy as their secular peers. For whatever it's worth, I do know that Turkish migrants in the Netherlands in the early 2000s who were active in their local mosques had a much higher rate of civic participation in the Netherlands than their secular-turned peers.

[Winston Legthigh]

True, but they’re using science, not scripture.

True, but they're not using their faith as a crutch to stop looking.