Of canons and being comfortable

[Erik Ritland]

I just got done browsing through the board's thoughts on W(TA). I find it very interesting how scattered a group of people can be - but also fascinating, and very telling. A song so many people think is obviously indispensable is seen by others as a throwaway. On person's "weak lyrics and melody" are another's "very solid track" (not using exact quotes from the thread, just making an overall generalization).

 

This was touched on in the thread, but it got me to thinking. What makes a band's songs/albums/etc. "great"? You can say it's all a matter of opinion, and I suppose it is, but it's all very interesting to me.

 

For example, I'd dare to say that many people think YHF is a classic album. But I'm sure there are at least a few who think it's convoluted, strange, boring, or whatever. Is it a classic then? Does a consensus matter? Is it just interesting? What does matter?

 

Haha, maybe I'm getting too philosophical here. My main point, I guess, is that I find it interesting the gamut of opinions on here, and of the body of work of any artist.

 

I'll admit, I haven't even listened to Wilco (The Album). AGIB was interesting, I thought SBS was a good record, but they didn't keep me glued to the Wilco scene. Maybe it's because there's too much time between records.

 

I think it's mostly because starting with AGIB, and continuing through to SBS and beyond, Wilco have gotten too comfortable to me. They know what they want to play, how they want to play it, what they want to do, and have no real obstacles. They have become comfortable, and this comfortability has effected their creativity.

 

People argue back and forth about drugs and issues that have to do with music, and if they help musicians or if that's just a bunch of bullshit. And I think that's an interesting question too. You don't necessarily have to be messing with drugs or dealing with demons to make great music. But I do think that there's an amount of truth to bands needing a push to be great. Pre-YHF Wilco was proving themselves. Aside from the post-Uncle Tupelo hangover of "A.M", their albums all pushed the envelope. They were forced to try really hard because they didn't know how much of a future they had.

 

After YHF, they had a solid fan base, they knew what they were looking for, etc. There were no tension, no boundaries. Jeff was so comfortable, in fact, that he kicked out any band member that messed with his comfort. And because of that things just haven't been there creatively for Wilco, culminating with the lackluster showings of SBS and, presumably, W(TA).

 

Despite this, musically Wilco is indeed the best they've ever been. The soul just isn't there anymore.

 

I know this touches on like 100 things. Maybe some of them have been discussed already. Just thought I'd throw this stuff out there.

[W(TF)]

You say SBS was a good record, then you call it lacklustre. Then you presume the same about W(TA) after admitting you haven't even listened to it?

 

[Erik Ritland]

From the getgo, W(TF) has been my favorite display name since I've re-joined. Had to share that.

 

Second, I do like SBS. I just think it's not great, and it definitely wasn't good enough to keep me on the edge of my seat for what came next.

 

Lastly, I admit that I haven't heard W(TA), but my suspicions were that it would be like a lesser SBS. Which, by what a lot of people said on the W(TA) thread, seemed to be the case. I never meant to say I knew about W(TA), just that, by what others have said, it seems to continue the trend. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't mind being told that I am.

 

Another thing I meant to say is that, since reactions to W(TA) were so all over the board, it has compelled me to purchase it, which I will.

 

Am I an idiot? I'm sorry. I know my post was all over the place.

[rwilson580]

I disagree strongly with your basic premise. AGIB is an incredible album, a trivial dropoff from the album of the decade. SBS is superb...perhaps not quite so creative as the two masterpieces that preceded it, but chock-full of that feeling / soul you seem to be looking for. (TA)...well, let's wait until you've done your homework to talk about that one.

[W(TF)]

From the getgo, W(TF) has been my favorite display name since I've re-joined. Had to share that.

 

Second, I do like SBS. I just think it's not great, and it definitely wasn't good enough to keep me on the edge of my seat for what came next.

 

Lastly, I admit that I haven't heard W(TA), but my suspicions were that it would be like a lesser SBS. Which, by what a lot of people said on the W(TA) thread, seemed to be the case. I never meant to say I knew about W(TA), just that, by what others have said, it seems to continue the trend. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't mind being told that I am.

 

Another thing I meant to say is that, since reactions to W(TA) were so all over the board, it has compelled me to purchase it, which I will.

 

Am I an idiot? I'm sorry. I know my post was all over the place.

 

I do that too....no worries.

 

Personally I think W(TA) is a better record than SBS, by a fraction or two. But SBS will probably always mean more to me, just because of where I was at and the way it affected me at the time. IOW, let's try to bear in mind that these things are completely subjective.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I think it's funny the way you characterize A.M. It was Jeff's first album "on his own" - all of his own songs (sans IJTS, of course), his band. Arguably, that's the one that probably pushed his envelope the most, as far as his own comfort was concerned.

 

I think A.M. and SBS have a fair amount in common stylistically. What makes A.M. the superior album to me is the energy and excitement that the band clearly had, which I think is worlds more interesting to listen to than technical superiority.

 

As far as SBS v. W(TA), I've finally figured out what gives W(TA) the occassionally lead in my book: SBS was the album where Wilco seems to be trying to sound happy, and W(TA) is the album where Wilco has fun. Sometimes, I'd much rather listen to a band having fun than a band being happy.

[Erik Ritland]

I disagree strongly with your basic premise. AGIB is an incredible album, a trivial dropoff from the album of the decade. SBS is superb...perhaps not quite so creative as the two masterpieces that preceded it, but chock-full of that feeling / soul you seem to be looking for. (TA)...well, let's wait until you've done your homework to talk about that one.

I figured I'd be up front about not listening to TA because I'd get a sympathetic, mature response. But seeing as I got somewhat childishly jabbed twice for it, I know better for next time. I admitted the flaw of not listening to it in my first post. My comments were solely in context to the reaction to the album on the previous thread. I didn't "judge" it on my own merits...oboviously...I haven't heardit. There's no need to be snarky.

 

I'm very glad to get opinons about my post though...that's why I posted it, because it interests me, and I think it's cool to hear what other people think. So thanks.

[Erik Ritland]

I think it's funny the way you characterize A.M. It was Jeff's first album "on his own" - all of his own songs (sans IJTS, of course), his band. Arguably, that's the one that probably pushed his envelope the most, as far as his own comfort was concerned.

 

 

I'll agree, Jeff having an album on his own did wish his personal envelope. Thus, it finds him dipping into different sounds and feels on it. I like that album a lot and didn't mean to sound critical of it. On the whole it comes off (in my subjective opinion ) as a bit amateurish.

[H.Stone]

I figured I'd be up front about not listening to TA because I'd get a sympathetic, mature response.

 

What would constitute a "sympathetic, mature response"? "Aw man, that's cool. You just haven't had the time or inclination to listen. I totally get it, man." People expecting you to listen to the album before you comment isn't immature or unsympathetic--it's reasonable.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I think you might have gotten a more sympathetic response if you didn't speculate on how W(TA) sounds after admitting you hadn't heard it.

[LouieB]

W(TA) is a perfectly fine album. Just not earth shattering.

 

LouieB

[u2roolz]

Erik Ritland's situation reminds me of my own for Pearl Jam's Backspacer. My fricken' friend gave me the cd to burn onto my computer and I still haven't listened to it yet. And I think I narrowed down the simple reason no matter how lame it may sound, but it does make sense to me. Pearl Jam didn't come to Boston on this Fall Tour, so I didn't feel the need to listen to the album in a rush. That being said I have heard mixed reactions to it on this board. I'll listen to it soon enough.

 

RE: Wilco (The Album) - I always have felt that it is a better collection of songs than Sky Blue Sky was. I LOVE every song from start to finish. On Sky Blue Sky I'm not so crazy about Leave Me Like You Found Me. (I keep picturing Beast Of Burden). And I take Solitaire over Please Be Patient With Me. But that could change a week from now.

 

Edit:

Ironically, I feel that the songs off of Sky Blue Sky really shine/get better when performed live. To me it feels like W(TA) sounds a lot more livelier and fun as Speed Racer pointed out. I guess what I'm trying to say is I haven't heard a bootleg yet where they've topped the recorded version of something from W(TA).

[Kalle]

W(TA) is a perfectly fine album. Just not earth shattering.

 

LouieB

 

 

Yup that's exactly how I feel as well.

 

Jeff has said this in a couple interviews now and I think it's really quite true. I think the band now has a clean slate for whatever they want to do next, no one can thoughtfully predict what they're going to do next or what direction they're going to take with this next album. With SBS to W(TA) we certainly had some idea, to me I have none, I'm sure Jeff does, he always does, but I think Wilco is in a very exciting position now.

[Golden Smoghead]

Unfortunately, I don't think much Wilco has done since AGIB can really be characterized as "exciting." "Mature," "creative," etc... Sure. But for me Kicking Television is probably their best album since AGIB.

 

That said, I do think W(TA) is an improvement over SBS, which I've eventually totally deleted off my iPod after trying to get into for all this time. (Just killed the last couple tracks a few weeks ago.) W(TA) is still on my iPod and there are moments I really am pleasantly surprised by, but overall there just seems to be a lot less energy in the band's last two studio efforts.

 

I think if W(TA) was from some band I'd never heard of, I'd probably be a lot more impressed, it's just impossible for me to not compare it to their other work. SBS made me more cautious about Wilco, and put up my radar for the "dad-rock-factor" and I think you hear some of that same weakness on W(TA).

 

BTW I also think A.M. is one of the best Wilco albums, so I'm sure that makes my opinions suspect to most people on this forum.

[rwilson580]

I figured I'd be up front about not listening to TA because I'd get a sympathetic, mature response. But seeing as I got somewhat childishly jabbed twice for it, I know better for next time. I admitted the flaw of not listening to it in my first post. My comments were solely in context to the reaction to the album on the previous thread. I didn't "judge" it on my own merits...oboviously...I haven't heardit. There's no need to be snarky.

 

I hate anonymous web drive-bys, so sorry for wrecking your day a little, Erik. You just happened to touch on one of my pet peeves there. The "oh Wilco is in such decline" crowd. As someone who knew nothing about the band until a couple years ago, and so got exposed to their back catalogue very quickly, one after the other -- I just don't hear it. I won't shanghai your thread by comparing AGIB and SBS to some of those acknowledged masterworks that precede it, other than to repeat that I believe they hold up very well. Just my opinion, but it gets tiresome listening to that refrain. So when I hear someone touching on it, and including in evidence an album they haven't even listened to...sorry, it touched a nerve.

 

And, yes, just for the record, I do believe (TA) is a step down from my favorites. But I don't believe that has to say anything about Wilco or where they're heading. I just don't like it as much as several of the others. But that's also true of Summerteeth, so there you are. Personal preferences, who can account for them? I just don't think we should confuse our subjective tastes with Wilco's objective reality.

 

And that cycles back to your larger question, which I think you know the answer to. It is all subjective, and even if we all agreed on which albums were great, and which were poor, it doesn't make it fact.

[Erik Ritland]

What would constitute a "sympathetic, mature response"? "Aw man, that's cool. You just haven't had the time or inclination to listen. I totally get it, man." People expecting you to listen to the album before you comment isn't immature or unsympathetic--it's reasonable.

 

I didn't comment on it, you see - I commented on the general consensus after reading the thread about it, and how it was similar to my expectations. That's it and that's all (

).

 

What I meant by "sympathetic, mature response" was understanding that context. That I wasn't commenting on the album itself.

 

Maybe I'm just not clear.

I hate anonymous web drive-bys, so sorry for wrecking your day a little, Erik. You just happened to touch on one of my pet peeves there. The "oh Wilco is in such decline" crowd. As someone who knew nothing about the band until a couple years ago, and so got exposed to their back catalogue very quickly, one after the other -- I just don't hear it. I won't shanghai your thread by comparing AGIB and SBS to some of those acknowledged masterworks that precede it, other than to repeat that I believe they hold up very well. Just my opinion, but it gets tiresome listening to that refrain. So when I hear someone touching on it, and including in evidence an album they haven't even listened to...sorry, it touched a nerve.

 

And, yes, just for the record, I do believe (TA) is a step down from my favorites. But I don't believe that has to say anything about Wilco or where they're heading. I just don't like it as much as several of the others. But that's also true of Summerteeth, so there you are. Personal preferences, who can account for them? I just don't think we should confuse our subjective tastes with Wilco's objective reality.

 

And that cycles back to your larger question, which I think you know the answer to. It is all subjective, and even if we all agreed on which albums were great, and which were poor, it doesn't make it fact.

 

Thank you. I can understand all that. I need to be put up to speed about the stuff around here. Keeping up best I can for rolling back

 

 

 

BTW I also think A.M. is one of the best Wilco albums, so I'm sure that makes my opinions suspect to most people on this forum.

 

Adds credence to me!

[deepseacatfish]

Does a consensus matter? Is it just interesting? What does matter?

In my mind consensus doesn't matter, sure it creates musical canons, record sales, clips on remember the (insert decade) shows, whatever...but when it comes down to it really the only thing that matters is whether or not the musicians involved see their music as worth making. There's the quote from the extras of I Am Trying to Break Your Heart that goes something like "the band doesn't care whether they sell 500,000 or 500 copies as long as they can bring one home themselves," and from all I can tell Wilco and Jeff most of all are happy musically with what they're doing (live and in studio). Yeah I would without question say that for me Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is the most interesting and compelling album they've made, but I still enjoy much if not all of what they've done before and since that album. As a musician I've never sold 100 albums, I've never made huge sums of money on a gig, but I still find it endlessly rewarding and worthwhile to keep playing and recording music. So yeah, in the end it's really about the band. No reason we shouldn't or can't continue to debate the musical/artistic/cultural/superficial/etc. merits of any albums/groups, but in my mind for the most part forget the canons, the "best of" lists, etc. (they're all useful tools in their own way) listen to what you like and play how you feel.