Why no videotaping at shows?

[Chinese Apple]

Does anyone know why Jeff Tweedy gets so angry about people videoing and posting concert snippets online? Has he talked about this in any interviews?

 

The stuff on youtube is usually bad quality, but it does document something. I'd never waste a moment of my own enjoyment by videoing during a Wilco show, but I sometimes find these amateur videos informative for what they are. Especially for shows I didn't get to go to, but hear about.

 

As a student of anthropology, I think these mini-documentaries are equally about Wilco as they are auto-ethnographic films by Wilco's fans. I love the subjectivity of them -- representing so many different points-of-view (literally) of the same show.

 

I would love to know what it is exactly that irks JT about this.

 

Theories? Conspiracy or otherwise?

[Preferred B]

Ironically, the most detailed explanation I've seen is here ... in a youtube video shot at a concert:

 

 

(I think this is an exception to the no videos linked on VC rule.)

 

I'm not sure about any interviews.

[Analogman]

Wilco - Policies

 

We do not allow video taping, and ask that you refrain from using your cell phones during concerts.

 

Wilco does permit audio taping and trading of live performances wherever it does not conflict with venue or other restrictions beyond our control. We do not allow direct soundboard patches. We also do not allow videotaping. Wilco supports the free trading of live recordings for non-commercial purposes.

 

Although there are apparently some bands that allow fan video taping, the majority do not allow it. I suppose this has to do with the distractions that such equipment may cause, and/or the fact that people use to sell such things (just as they did live show audio tapes).

[In a little rowboat]

in a nut shell, i think jeff realizes the distraction and disruption of the connection with an audience that occurs when a sizable section of the crowd is simply holding up cell phones to record instead of actually listening. Being a performer requires an interaction with the audience, which is somewhat personal. Its also incredibly rude and insensitive to fellow audience members when folks do this, and the price of a ticket is representative of the right to witness the show and be part of the group dynamic...ticket price does not entitle one to document or 'own the rights' to the music performed.

 

Having been at the 10-4-09 memphis show, i certainly understand the reaction. And I can understand your point about documentation, but disagree that these 'mini' films are equally about the filmer and the filmed. It is my opinion that if someone feels the need to document their feelings and reaction to a wilco performance, they should create a new piece of work representing that feeling--that is art. Otherwise it is theft.

 

I also appreciate the argument that if there are a surplus of videos and bootlegs out there, it lessens the likelihood that some people will actually invest in the price of a ticket to attend.

[Chinese Apple]

It is my opinion that if someone feels the need to document their feelings and reaction to a wilco performance, they should create a new piece of work representing that feeling--that is art. Otherwise it is theft.

 

Hmmm... I think a lot of people who make ethnographic films that attempt to document live performance in different cultures would argue this point.

 

I also appreciate the argument that if there are a surplus of videos and bootlegs out there, it lessens the likelihood that some people will actually invest in the price of a ticket to attend.

 

Really? People would watch these youtube posts instead of going to live shows? Every time I watch one of these badly filmed concert snippets, it only stokes my Live-Wilco craving. This year has been absolutely fanatical for me, going to six Wilco shows around Europe. Spending way too much of our recession money.

 

I bet the same people who look these things up to watch them are the ones spend the most on concert tickets. The same way that people who illegally download spend the most on music. (See article in The Independent here.)

 

If you watch enough of these, you get a sense of the lexicon. They are what they are. These are the times we live in. Ipod Cyborgs inhabit the earth; this is how they perceive reality. (If a tree falls in the forest and it isn't on Twitter, did it really happen?) On some level, maybe we need to flow with the Tao.

 

Some arguments that convince me so far are: 1) The person filming is not living their life in the moment. And, 2) it is annoying having someone in front of you holding up their cellphones and obstructing your view.

 

I am glad JT rants about it, because that does help keep the filming to a minimum; but I also love when people capture some of his witticisms at shows that are too far flung for me to get to.

 

So conflicted! Maybe I will bring it up in therapy.

[In a little rowboat]

Hmmm... I think a lot of people who make ethnographic films that attempt to document live performance in different cultures would argue this point.

 

 

 

Really? People would watch these youtube posts instead of going to live shows? Every time I watch one of these badly filmed concert snippets, it only stokes my Live-Wilco craving. This year has been absolutely fanatical for me, going to six Wilco shows around Europe. Spending way too much of our recession money.

 

I bet the same people who look these things up to watch them are the ones spend the most on concert tickets. The same way that people who illegally download spend the most on music. (See article in The Independent here.)

 

If you watch enough of these, you get a sense of the lexicon. They are what they are. These are the times we live in. Ipod Cyborgs inhabit the earth; this is how they perceive reality. (If a tree falls in the forest and it isn't on Twitter, did it really happen?) On some level, maybe we need to flow with the Tao.

 

Some arguments that convince me so far are: 1) The person filming is not living their life in the moment. And, 2) it is annoying having someone in front of you holding up their cellphones and obstructing your view.

 

I am glad JT rants about it, because that does help keep the filming to a minimum; but I also love when people capture some of his witticisms at shows that are too far flung for me to get to.

 

So conflicted! Maybe I will bring it up in therapy.

 

 

I was not trying to provide fodder for debate, more trying to express my understanding of tweedy's response...and personal preference...however...

 

I would argue that producers of 'ethnographic' films are spending money and pondering ramifications in regard to the impact of and reflection on the work...to compare the drunk bitch with the cameraphone in memphis to them is laughable. Also, if you are talking about cultural documentation similar to Nat Geo, most of those 'culturally relevant' arts are considered public domain in other cultures, and do not deal with the very complex and justly protected institutions of copyright and intellectual property. I think you are assigning more worth to you tube than it may be due...do think going to the movies and filming a motion picture is right??

 

In addition, if you think the people illegally downloading music are the ones ultimately paying the most legally, well, of course--they are the music fans in each case...there is little reliable data available however to indicate what percentage of folks dont do both. Threre is little difference in what is going on now, and what did with people taping LPs, burning Cds, etc. I do believe there has to be a balance on the free availability of bootleg video in particular...I can see your point about it piquing interest to see a show, but it more likely diminishes the desire to see one for real in the casual or unfamiliar fan. A person should have the right to his own image as well...

 

Bottom line for me is that no matter how much an artist gives or produces, itll never be enough for some people...we live in a culture of entitlement and expectation...we expect too much of people and celebritize everything to the point where the lines between public and privilege are constantly blurred...we too often forget what is special about uncommon events, and trade connection and interaction for documentation and bragging rights.

[Chinese Apple]

I hear you. Thanks for taking time to explain.

 

I guess since Wilco has not come out to give a reason why, we can't know what they think, but what you've written makes perfect sense.

 

I've never posted on youtube, but it seems the ones who do post videos (upper limit of 10 minutes), don't do it for financial gain. And could it have bearing on the earnings of musicians when I wouldn't pay money to look at it?

 

It is different from filming in a movie theatre because you are actually copying someone else's work in the same medium, frame by frame, and potentially spoiling a narrative arc.

 

This sort of video scrapbooking ("on an imperfect medium" to quote Tweedy in the Youtube Preferred B posted), defines the times we live in now, and may well become cultural artifacts in the future.

 

I come from a culture where artistic expression has, for centuries, been about referencing those who came before rather than about originality. But having been educated in the West, I understand the Western concept of "copyright" because it rewards innovation. Even when ideas come from other ideas -- in collage, as pastische, through sampling, or what-have-you -- these sometimes resonate in a different way, and are equally creative.

 

I did hear about the drunk woman in Memphis, but all tapers are not so disrespectful. I enjoy (without guilt!) some of the videos that are out there. It is interesting how people editorialize what they tape, and choose to post: things they think are significant or impressive to their friends, the semiotics of identity, etc.

 

I am a late-blooming American (naturalized when I was 33), so think it is all very very interesting in an "Americana" sort of way.

 

I feel bad that I like something that Wilco doesn't allow.

 

So maybe really, I am looking for absolution rather than explanation.

[In a little rowboat]

I hear you. Thanks for taking time to explain.

 

I guess since Wilco has not come out to give a reason why, we can't know what they think, but what you've written makes perfect sense.

 

I've never posted on youtube, but it seems the ones who do post videos (upper limit of 10 minutes), don't do it for financial gain. And could it have bearing on the earnings of musicians when I wouldn't pay money to look at it?

 

It is different from filming in a movie theatre because you are actually copying someone else's work in the same medium, frame by frame, and potentially spoiling a narrative arc.

 

This sort of video scrapbooking ("on an imperfect medium" to quote Tweedy in the Youtube Preferred B posted), defines the times we live in now, and may well become cultural artifacts in the future.

 

I come from a culture where artistic expression has, for centuries, been about referencing those who came before rather than about originality. But having been educated in the West, I understand the Western concept of "copyright" because it rewards innovation. Even when ideas come from other ideas -- in collage, as pastische, through sampling, or what-have-you -- these sometimes resonate in a different way, and are equally creative.

 

I did hear about the drunk woman in Memphis, but all tapers are not so disrespectful. I enjoy (without guilt!) some of the videos that are out there. It is interesting how people editorialize what they tape, and choose to post: things they think are significant or impressive to their friends, the semiotics of identity, etc.

 

I am a late-blooming American (naturalized when I was 33), so think it is all very very interesting in an "Americana" sort of way.

 

I feel bad that I like something that Wilco doesn't allow.

 

So maybe really, I am looking for absolution rather than explanation.

 

Very interesting indeed...I guess I didnt consider that you might have a decidedly non-american background, and so I might have considered you original post more of a complaint than an interrogative...where did you naturalize from? I applaud your natural inquest and academic interest in the subject.

 

I understand the need to reference the past and one's roots, but there is a difference between scrapbooking and the current practice...there is something a bit too self serving with the majority of the filmers posting...and Ill admit my guilt for enjoying such videos, bootlegs, etc...and I am a musician as well and welcome the medium that makes my work accessible to the world...but not at the expense of my livelihood. I understand and respect the individual requests of my favorite artists, its a shame so many people do not.

 

As far as absolution goes...well, I can think of plenty of other things in the world to be upset about instead of videotapers at a wilco show...haha

[Guest Jules]

Pardon my bluntness, but videotaping a concert with a shitty little camera is just plain stupid. I think this is why Wilco doesn't allow it. On account of stupidity.

[Guest Speed Racer]

And taping the concert with anything other than a shitty little camera would most definitely cut too much into the concert experience of others.

[Guest Jules]

And taping the concert with anything other than a shitty little camera would most definitely cut too much into the concert experience of others.

I'm glad you understand.

[Chinese Apple]

where did you naturalize from?

 

I was born in Taiwan (a former Japanese colony populated by ethnic Chinese from Southern China), but grew up all over the place, chunks of it Connecticut and California.

 

I've been based in Dublin, Ireland for the last four years, though.

[stooka]

I've got no problem with anyone videotaping a show.... just be discreet about it. Don't block anyone's view or shine your glowing camera in their face. I enjoy watching some youtube videos, but most of the time the quality of the sound and image are just plain terrible. A few, on the other hand are fantastic.

 

The problem is that some folks are just not interested in respecting others around them.

[JHamm]

My memory is a bit hazy, but I seem to remember the policy was in place so the band wasn't playing in front of hundreds of video cameras. There seemed to be a sense something like that would happen if there wasn't a policy, along with selling copies of the shows themselves. But, again, my memory isn't what it used to be.

[Analogman]

I think that is a good point. There is, of course a difference between a person shooting some "video" with a cell phone, and someone "filming" the show with a camcorder. I suppose that is why they have changed the wording in their policy statement a bit. That is, so both are covered. I understand Jeff getting upset, but I don't see it stopping. The venue can keep people from bringing in camcorders, but not cell phones.

 

And then there is the issue of people constantly taking photos. I believe there is a line there somewhere, I guess everyone has to figure that out for themselves. Of course, it is one thing to say that now - in the frenzy of a live show, it is a different story.

 

I think this sort of deal is just the outcome of the advance of technology, and the age we live live in these days.

 

I am not really interested in Wilco AUD videos, or photos, (although I have such files, of course) but I am interested in AUD tapes of shows. I am thankful they allow taping. I don't recall ever getting bugged by a taper, but people with cameras and phones have bugged me a time or two.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I've got no problem with anyone videotaping a show.... just be discreet about it. Don't block anyone's view or shine your glowing camera in their face. I enjoy watching some youtube videos, but most of the time the quality of the sound and image are just plain terrible. A few, on the other hand are fantastic.

 

The problem is that some folks are just not interested in respecting others around them.

 

 

I've been thinking about why I didn't really have as much fun at mmy last Wilco show as I have previously had. I can tie it all to the fucker standing in front of me with his damn iPhone taking crappy video and photo captures.

 

People being running dumb asses lead to tirades from the stage and barring of cameras, audio recorders and cell phones from venues.

 

They can wand the entire audience as they enter and confiscate cell phones (I've seen it done in other situations).

 

Hmmm... I think a lot of people who make ethnographic films that attempt to document live performance in different cultures would argue this point.

 

 

 

And, 2) it is annoying having someone in front of you holding up their cellphones and obstructing your view.

I am glad JT rants about it, because that does help keep the filming to a minimum; but I also love when people capture some of his witticisms at shows that are too far flung for me to get to.

 

[LouieB]

Hmmm... I think a lot of people who make ethnographic films that attempt to document live performance in different cultures would argue this point.

 

I keep ducking into this thread to see what it is about and this is the one statement that really amazes me. Is Wilco really the subject of some ethno-musicological study? If it is, then ask the band to let you tape them, set it up in advance and maybe pay them.

 

I am half kidding of course, because as much as we all love Wilco they are a rock band, not some sort of exotic or unusual cultural phenomenon. I would even go so far as to say they are primarily entertainers (let's leave the artistic part of this out of it for the moment) and entertainers that are part of a much larger and not very exotic culture known as indie/alternative/americana/rock and roll; not that much different than literally thousands of other bands in the world.

 

Also it is not like there aren't videos of Wilco, in fact between those that they have released as films there are many TV shows and semi-authorized videos of their work. Having to video each and every performance is either their call or one that requires (if you are polite) a request to video them. Isn't it enough that we have audio records of virtually every performance Jeff Tweedy has ever done.

 

Some people are just never happy....

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

I keep ducking into this thread to see what it is about and this is the one statement that really amazes me. Is Wilco really the subject of some ethno-musicological study? If it is, then ask the band to let you tape them, set it up in advance and maybe pay them.

 

No, I think chinese.apple was saying that ethnographers would argue that individuals filming the show is an act of auto-ethnography, the document which ethnographers would study to see what people think of themselves and the object of their devotion.

 

I think it's crap, of course. Everything we do is auto-ethnography, really, as everything we do (or how we do it, in most cases) is a point of self-expression of culture. If someone doesn't want you auto-ethnographying in certain places - which so many policies and laws prohibit you from doing - then you don't. Too bad.

 

I am half kidding of course, because as much as we all love Wilco they are a rock band, not some sort of exotic or unusual cultural phenomenon. I would even go so far as to say they are primarily entertainers (let's leave the artistic part of this out of it for the moment) and entertainers that are part of a much larger and not very exotic culture known as indie/alternative/americana/rock and roll; not that much different than literally thousands of other bands in the world.

 

No, Wilco is certainly a very usual cultural phenomenon, but I would argue that what's usual about them is that, to most people, they are primarily entertainers; to others, as I'm certain this board more than illustrates from time to time, they are the object of devotion. Not in a creepy way at all, but you can't deny that waiting in line for half a day, buying multiple formats of the same record, buying posters and merch and trading and talking about them on a message board, is far more than a pastime for a number of individuals. That doesn't make them weird or fanatical or crazy, but some people go to lengths for Wilco that they would never go to for any other band in their collection; likewise, many people who listen to Wilco would happily do all of that for another band, and only listen to Wilco casually.

 

I think devotion to popular bands in certainly worth anthropological study if you're into that (I did my senior thesis on Jandek fans, in fact), but there definitely comes a point at which studying them is more than a little absurd.

 

For a good look into this, Tramps Like Us (1996) an ethnography of Springsteen fans by Daniel Cavichi, is a fascinating, fun read. He starts off the ethnography just in love with Springsteen, and finishes as his interest in him wanes, all the while staying pretty true to the fans. Matt Hills's book Fan Cultures (2001) is a bit more recent, and explores a number of science fiction texts that attract fans. For a contemporary read, check out Henry Jenkins's Convergence Culture (2008), which explores how devotion to popular culture texts has changed since advances in internet technology.

[Chinese Apple]

If someone doesn't want you auto-ethnographying in certain places - which so many policies and laws prohibit you from doing - then you don't. Too bad.

 

I agree with this part. But disagree that "everything we do is auto-ethnography." Ethnography entails documenting. If you take a crap in the toilet, for instance, that may be future fodder for archeologists, but is not ethnography.

 

Let's not deny the hypocrisy of poo-pooing people for videoing, but then watching them ourselves on Youtube. Being the "demand," and then turning around to blame the "suppliers" feels as wrong as denouncing prostitution if you are a john. I look it up, and I like it. I feel badly about harshing on people who tape, for that reason.

 

So, great for anyone out there who's never looked that stuff up. How Christian of you!

 

I think devotion to popular bands in certainly worth anthropological study if you're into that (I did my senior thesis on Jandek fans, in fact), but there definitely comes a point at which studying them is more than a little absurd.

 

Would love to read your thesis. And thanks for the book recommendations. I love deconstructing Western popular culture through anthropology.

 

And, here, from Oliver Sacks' (neurologist who wrote The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat) book Musicophilia:

 

"In all societies, a primary function of music is collective and communal, to bring and bind people together. People sing together and dance together in every culture, and one can imagine them having done so around the first fires, a hundred thousand years ago. This primal role of music is lost today, when we have a special class of composers and performers, with the rest of us often reduced to passive listening. We have to go to a concert, a church or a musical festival to reexperience music as a social activity, to recapture the collective excitement and bonding of music."

[Guest Speed Racer]

Ethnography entails documenting.

 

Truth, and thanks for the correction. But I still don't think that filming Wilco at a show on your phone is any more worthy of study than studying assholes who take photos of themselves everywhere they go. People just do it because it's easy and are under some impression that they will remember things better if they document them; I think that's more a sign of the times than anything else. Because we can, we think we should.

 

Let's not deny the hypocrisy of poo-pooing people for videoing, but then watching them ourselves on Youtube. Being the "demand," and then turning around to blame the "suppliers" feels as wrong as denouncing prostitution if you are a john. I look it up, and I like it. I feel badly about harshing on people who tape, for that reason.

 

Eh, I don't know if it's hypocrisy to support the rule and still enjoy the fruits of disstension. It certainly is a NIMBY attitude to poo-poo people to tape near them but hope that parts of the show were videotaped elsewhere in the theater.

 

I don't look up stuff on Youtube because The DVD Project is so rich and, frankly, 99% of the Youtube stuff is just crap. Total crap. It's either footage from The DVD Project, so I already have it, or if the video and sound aren't both bad, one of them makes the footage unwatchable.

[LouieB]

Sorry I am not more of an academic, but what the fuck is auto-ethnography? I know what it means (self study....blah blah blah...okay), but come on. Why on earth do you need a video of someone else to do THAT? So study yourself and don't tape the band. (not directed at speed racer who cleared this up for me...)

 

This must be the most self absorbed generation ever.....let's be honest. Indie rock culture is faux culture. Studying Bruce Springsteen, all good I suppose, fun enough, but please, I really don't need to know in any depth how people feel about Wilco, particularly in some bogus academic terms. I spend plenty of time on sidewalks waiting to get into shows and while it is an interesting phenomenon and I have met lots of great people, on one level I just really don't need to spend that much more of my life studying why I am that obsessed. Am I really supposed to study why I did it. Those who need to do that; those who haven't gotten enough of a kick out of standing on sidewalks and buying multiple copies of albums, collecting shows, buying posters and other merch, etc. etc., really need to get a new life. Isn't it enough we do all these nutty things (like spending way to many hours on fan sites on the internet.....), but then going home and trying to figure out why we did it; that's scary, particularly the need to relive every moment through a video tape.

 

Time to reintegrate your personality and get on with it, and maybe find a cure for cancer or a way towards world peace, not question why Jeff Tweedy doesn't want crappy vids of himself passed around. That seems pretty self evident.

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

This must be the most self absorbed generation ever.....let's be honest. Indie rock culture is faux culture. Studying Bruce Springsteen, all good I suppose, fun enough, but please, I really don't need to know in any depth how people feel about Wilco, particularly in some bogus academic terms.

 

Then don't read about it; that part's not really rocket science.

 

I don't think we're that much more self-absorbed than previous generations, but many more of us have decided to use our extra leisure time (this, of course, supposing that we have more than we used to a few decades ago) to engage in media that allow us to promote ourselves rather than media that explore other people, places and things.

 

My personal thought is that, to some people, popular culture phenomena can be a kind of religious experience: sacred texts, pilgrimages, conversion (surely we've all shared stories of how we got into Wilco; some were white-light moments, other were over time, through exposure), arguments about the myths, arguments about the texts. I find it interesting to think about, much in the way you find it interesting to write about and read about jazz.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Time to reintegrate your personality and get on with it, and maybe find a cure for cancer or a way towards world peace, not question why Jeff Tweedy doesn't want crappy vids of himself passed around. That seems pretty self evident.

 

Oh, I also wanted to add how much I love that this is the century in which we can post on the internet, in our free time, judgements of how other people spending their free time doing something (like posting on the internet) is a total waste of time.

[Chinese Apple]

 

This must be the most self absorbed generation ever.....

 

Indie rock culture is faux culture. Studying Bruce Springsteen, all good I suppose, fun enough, but please, I really don't need to know in any depth how people feel about Wilco, particularly in some bogus academic terms.

 

Time to reintegrate your personality and get on with it, and maybe find a cure for cancer or a way towards world peace, not question why Jeff Tweedy doesn't want crappy vids of himself passed around. That seems pretty self evident.

 

 

I don' think indie rock culture is "faux" culture. As an outsider, I find it quintessentially American and absolutely fascinating. I like it, but don't feel a part of it. I study it, the way some Americans study kabuki, or haiku (!) in its original form.

 

English is not my mother tongue. I feel bad that these "academic terms" exclude you. I forget who I am talking to on these here internets: the default assumption is that we are talking to someone much like ourselves, in our own heads.

 

I am sure you are not as "self-absorbed" as I am.

 

I'm surprised that you assume I am not doing my part to promote world peace. For all you know, I just might move in diplomatic circles here and abroad.

 

Peace to you, LouieB., and happy holidays.

[Chinese Apple]

It's either footage from The DVD Project, so I already have it, or if the video and sound aren't both bad, one of them makes the footage unwatchable.

 

What is "The DVD Project"? Is it for The People?