is our kids getting more dumber?

[jenbobblehead]

I did an online MPA program at a fairly competitive school and there were plenty (and i mean PLENTY) of whiners. Just so you know. OMG the whining! It was so telling that people completing a Masters in Public Administration would have such trouble with technology. is that irony? Or just type casting? I am not sure.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I did an online MPA program at a fairly competitive school and there were plenty (and i mean PLENTY) of whiners. Just so you know. OMG the whining!

 

HAHAHAHA! I'm expecting my fair share of whining, but I have three friends, whose experiences span 7 years, who oscillated between the night program and the full-time program at this school and said the night program was MUCH more bearable.

[Atticus]

well this certainly went places

[uncool2pillow]

well this certainly went places

It's the best we could do, we're getting dumber.

[fatheadfred]

Not sure why the debate on technology. It's a great tool and can have a vast amount of educational value. I'm in the last class of an M.A. ed.program done all on-line and never once meeting a peer, teacher, advisor, etc. face-to-face. I'm ok with this.

 

Texting/passing notes? Kids still pass notes and cell pohones are confiscated if they are caught being used during classroom time. Not a big deal, really.

 

Kids aren't less functional because of technology. If anything, they are more prone to adapt to the technology world than any generation prior to them as the'y are now born into it. Technology is not making them lazy or stupid, it's just changing the way they learn. I'm ok with this, too.

 

My take is that schools are not adjusting to what works in education fast enough. On top, I feel there's less burden/expectation/"accountability" placed on parents to assume responsibilities for the learning of their own kids. In most Title I schools, kids enter kindergarten unprepared, meaning the parents have failed them from the start in terms of their education. Yet, the schools and teachers take the rap under NCLB when the kid is reading at a 3rd grade level in 5th or 6th grade because he's been playing "catch up" from the start.

My beef with technology is its propensity to decrease the depth of thought. Adults have fallen prey to this as well. We have short bursts of thought. It seems we scurry day to day trying to warehouse tiny bits of knowledge instead of using the model of extensive thought into one track, e.g. reading a book. Our ability to create imagery in communication is dwindling. Our ability to create new thought is becoming extinct. We appear to be in a race to compare prior knowledge instead of striking out on our own.

 

And the other beef. I've used online course tools and kids really do not like it. I thought I was doing them a favor. It appears they like certain types of technology. Educational tools creators believe simply using technology is the key to a student's motivation. Hey, I requested my students read a book and present it. To my surprise, many of them actually liked it. Really, I was surprised. Most said they hated reading when I mentioned the assignment. One kid even left a frat beer party to read his book due to his interest in it. Yeah, I began to worry about him at that point.

 

Now, grad students, with jobs, kids, etc. are all over online education. I can't argue with that. It is next to impossible knocking out traditional coursework in a timely fashion for graduate degrees while you work full time, have kids, etc.

[Guest Speed Racer]

As someone who feels like they were born with only the ability to have short bursts of thought here and there, I think that the technology and the internet has actually given me the ability to help string my thoughts together. The ability to actually have windows and tabs allows me to pick up where I left off, mid-thought, which is something I wasn't always able to do.

 

I still think that saying technology is some how responsible for decreasing depth of thought is shortsighted. The internet in particular is basically a very large social hall/library, and people are going to tend to seek out that which they would seek out without technology anyway. People started using abbreviations long before texting and IMing were so prevalent

 

And for as much as I love how technology is a useful tool for my education, the absolute best way for me to learn is to write notes and then recopy them later, by hand. I personally HATE when my teachers and professors insert unnecessary technology into a project or assignment: too often, the objective gets fucked up in a Rube Goldberg-style clusterfuck. I think often educators mistake students' leisure activities for a new trend in learning when that simply isn't the case. Again, I guess I could have had a teacher who tried to help us learn by sending us the lesson in notes passed clandestinely around the classroom, but they didn't - because they were activities with different purposes.

 

As for it being "next to impossible" to perform traditional coursework while working full-time, people have been doing that since forever. My father went to law school while working full-time; I have a friend who's married with kids in a mathematics program - isn't that why part-time programs were developed? I think that online programs are great for people who thrive in them, but I wouldn't say that traditional coursework is impossible to complete with families and jobs.

 

So much of the "technology makes us think more dumb" argument is the modern version of "kids these days," which again, is old as dirt.

[fatheadfred]

As someone who feels like they were born with only the ability to have short bursts of thought here and there, I think that the technology and the internet has actually given me the ability to help string my thoughts together. The ability to actually have windows and tabs allows me to pick up where I left off, mid-thought, which is something I wasn't always able to do.

 

I still think that saying technology is some how responsible for decreasing depth of thought is shortsighted. The internet in particular is basically a very large social hall/library, and people are going to tend to seek out that which they would seek out without technology anyway. People started using abbreviations long before texting and IMing were so prevalent

 

And for as much as I love how technology is a useful tool for my education, the absolute best way for me to learn is to write notes and then recopy them later, by hand. I personally HATE when my teachers and professors insert unnecessary technology into a project or assignment: too often, the objective gets fucked up in a Rube Goldberg-style clusterfuck. I think often educators mistake students' leisure activities for a new trend in learning when that simply isn't the case. Again, I guess I could have had a teacher who tried to help us learn by sending us the lesson in notes passed clandestinely around the classroom, but they didn't - because they were activities with different purposes.

 

As for it being "next to impossible" to perform traditional coursework while working full-time, people have been doing that since forever. My father went to law school while working full-time; I have a friend who's married with kids in a mathematics program - isn't that why part-time programs were developed? I think that online programs are great for people who thrive in them, but I wouldn't say that traditional coursework is impossible to complete with families and jobs.

 

So much of the "technology makes us think more dumb" argument is the modern version of "kids these days," which again, is old as dirt.

 

It appears you've succumbed to rote learning instead of internalizing the information in a way it can be applied.

 

Yes, I'm aware traditional grad programs can be completed with kids in tow and working full time, however, it is much easier via the internet.

 

Using Windows as a schematic for your brain. Hmmm. What if you are trying to communicate with a Mac brained person? Or, even, someone who does not use a computer?

 

Ultimately we are responsible, the computer is simply a tool.

[Guest Speed Racer]

It appears you've succumbed to rote learning instead of internalizing the information in a way it can be applied.

 

 

If I rolled my eyes any harder, they'd be in the cubicle next to mine. If you'll pardon my French, what the fuck do you know about my academic and intellectual capabilities? Again, you've made a terrible, ignorant generalization that really makes you come off like an ass-clown pothead. Not that you are, you just sound like one.

[fatheadfred]

the absolute best way for me to learn is to write notes and then recopy them later, by hand.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Yes, actually, it is. The best way for me to internalize what I am reading is to copy the pertinent ideas and then recopy what I took from that later. Once I have the pertinent ideas from the reading, do you know what I do? THINK ABOUT THEM. Is that so hard for you to deduce? Should I have spelled out that I think, and, like, INTERNALIZE things? Are you so daft?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Using Windows as a schematic for your brain. Hmmm. What if you are trying to communicate with a Mac brained person? Or, even, someone who does not use a computer?

 

Again, pardon my ignorance, but is it not common knowledge that persons without computers have the ability to multitask?

[fatheadfred]

Again, pardon my ignorance, but is it not common knowledge that persons without computers have the ability to multitask?

 

overrated, leads to anxiety, not productive, see 'chicken with head cut off'

[Guest Speed Racer]

My beef with technology is its propensity to decrease the depth of thought. Adults have fallen prey to this as well. We have short bursts of thought. It seems we scurry day to day trying to warehouse tiny bits of knowledge instead of using the model of extensive thought into one track, e.g. reading a book. Our ability to create imagery in communication is dwindling. Our ability to create new thought is becoming extinct. We appear to be in a race to compare prior knowledge instead of striking out on our own.

 

see:

 

overrated, leads to anxiety, not productive, see 'chicken with head cut off'

 

You're RIGHT!

[austrya]

I do have to say that most of the people in my classes have no idea how to learn by any other way than rote memorization and their critical thinking skills are completely lacking. In my microbiology class they complain after every test because the professor didn't teach them specifically about a certain concept. No, he didn't but he did teach you enough about it that if you put the pieces together, you'd be able to figure it out. I get so sick of hearing "but that wasn't on the study guide."

 

And for the record, I love online classes. I'm a full-time student with 4 kids and if it weren't for my school offering some of the classes online, there's no way I'd be able to do it. I still have classes on campus because my science classes require lab but I love the convenience of online learning. I'm currently taking a statistics class online and I'm very thankful that I don't have to sit through lecture for that. I have a very weird learning style for some subjects that I find challenging (like math) and I have to be able to do it my way or I won't be able to do it. I can sit through lectures of my science classes, which I also find challenging, but the difference is that I find them fascinating, so I don't need to resort to my other tactics, so to speak, for those classes.

 

I dunno, I'm weird. I'll be the first to admit it.

 

ETA: I also recopy my notes to study.

[fatheadfred]

For the note copiers, please, try notecards to reduce your time copying filler words. Use keywords and brief hints. Process it in your head instead of laborious factory work. Take 'em along with you and study in the 5 minutes here and there throughout the day. It'll work after some practice. You learned the copying notes method, you can learn other methods.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm sorry, what do my notes look like? Have you seen them?

[Guest Speed Racer]

ETA: I also recopy my notes to study.

 

Finally! A VCer as stupid as I am!

 

I do have to say that most of the people in my classes have no idea how to learn by any other way than rote memorization and their critical thinking skills are completely lacking. In my microbiology class they complain after every test because the professor didn't teach them specifically about a certain concept. No, he didn't but he did teach you enough about it that if you put the pieces together, you'd be able to figure it out. I get so sick of hearing "but that wasn't on the study guide."

 

Oh good lord, that drives me UP THE WALL. Students have so many expectations that are clearly not set in the classrooms that they apply them in. I was always stymied when kids would say that - whatever happened to the power of inference? That, and I assume (pardon the assumptions) that most professors assign a crap-ton of reading because they want us to actually do it, and regardless of what's on the study guide, most everything under the topic is fair game.

 

My favorite instance like this was in some of my political science courses, where professors would ask us on exams for our thoughts about a specific current event in the topic of the course, and students would go APESHIT that a professor expected us to keep up on current developments in our subject without being asked. I mean, you're a fourth-year political science major and you don't want to keep up on politics? Isn't the major a total waste of your time if you don't enjoy the topic?

 

College students who seem ungrateful or unwilling about their education (not just a particular course, but the idea in general) boggle my mind. I can think of a lot of things I'd like to do with my time and money if I hadn't gone to school, but dammit, I loved it, and I can't wait to go back. But to think of it as a means to an end, you must have done something completely wrong.

[Guest Speed Racer]

A lot of surliness of students (especially the young adult crowd) is pretty timeless - so too are budget issues and the "what to do with technology?" issue. What we're seeing that we have never really seen before are out of control budget crises that lead to overcrowded classrooms, underprepared teachers and a lack of educational resources. On the other end of that scale, we're seeing well-funded schools that are using technology for the sake of technology, and because the students are so immersed in it.

 

For as bad as our schools are though, a ton of foreign workers are still seeking their advanced degrees in the U.S. That many of them are beating out U.S. applicants for these programs is on one level part of the departments' interest in diversity, but also that they are pretty darned prepared by their foreign educations.

 

We can do a lot better than we are, especially at the elementary level. A student with a good elementary education who can read at or above grade-level seems a lot better equipped to survive in a bad high school than an ill-prepared student.

[austrya]

For the note copiers, please, try notecards to reduce your time copying filler words. Use keywords and brief hints. Process it in your head instead of laborious factory work. Take 'em along with you and study in the 5 minutes here and there throughout the day. It'll work after some practice. You learned the copying notes method, you can learn other methods.

 

I use other methods too. Usually, I'll re-copy my notes and the terms or concepts that require memorization (some things do), I enter into a two column spreadsheet on google docs and use it to make flashcards that I can view on my iPhone (no need to carry around a stack of cards). The other things I will think out and talk through how they work together. I also teach the stuff to my husband and kids because explaining it to someone else helps me out a lot. They of course don't care about what I'm talking about but at least they humor me. I can also scan certain notes, diagrams, etc and save them to google docs and access them on my iPhone later. Same with the lectures in some of my online classes. One professor does podcasts that we can download too. I'm all about technology!

 

I'm also lucky enough to be able to hyperfocus on demand. When I do, I can recall details that I learned before, almost like I have a photographic memory. It's strange, but it hasn't failed me yet.

[Lammycat]

Sounds like some negativity about various ways people learn best. There is no best way to learn. That's why teachers are taught to teach in a myriad of ways with differing modalities, tools, aids, etc. What works for one learner doesn't necessarily work for another. Nothing new there....

[Guest Speed Racer]

The other things I will think out and talk through how they work together. I also teach the stuff to my husband and kids because explaining it to someone else helps me out a lot. They of course don't care about what I'm talking about but at least they humor me.

 

Talking with other people helps me tremendously, which is one of the reasons I think I enjoyed writing papers so much. I made it a point to try to grab meals with a classmate after class a lot of the time, too.

 

My memory is funny - I'm terrible at remembering concepts, phrases, diagrams - almost anything that isn't a number, but I have an extensively rich catalog of numbers in my head. Phone numbers, file numbers, confirmation numbers (especially ones without letters in them), FedEx tracking numbers, receipt numbers for work - I look at them once, they're in my brain for life. I'm the only one in the office who can call the government without having to look at the receipt we were issued - or the customer service number for that matter. That was incredibly great as a reference tool when I was writing papers in college: I would remember that volume 73 had concepts relevant to my argument on pages 249, 255 and 257. I'd look in my source list for the publication that was V. 73 (couldn't remember the journal title), and I could go back and find the quote I was thinking of.

 

Also - that's why I LOVE Library of Congress cataloging (HN237.45, etc.).

[NightOfJoy]

Sounds like some negativity about various ways people learn best. There is no best way to learn. That's why teachers are taught to teach in a myriad of ways with differing modalities, tools, aids, etc. What works for one learner doesn't necessarily work for another. Nothing new there....

 

Wait, that wasnt the least bit funny. Where's the ha ha??

[austrya]

 

College students who seem ungrateful or unwilling about their education (not just a particular course, but the idea in general) boggle my mind. I can think of a lot of things I'd like to do with my time and money if I hadn't gone to school, but dammit, I loved it, and I can't wait to go back. But to think of it as a means to an end, you must have done something completely wrong.

 

I love school. Seriously, if I could afford to be a student for the rest of my life, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Of course I have classes that I hate (writing mostly) but I also try to take those in an accelerated class just to get them over and done with. Like my writing class was an 8 week online course and my stats class is a 12 week online course.

 

There was this one girl in my A&P class (accelerated A&P I & II in the same semester) who would come to class and read novels during the lecture. It's a 5 credit class, so that's a pretty huge chunk of cash to blow off. You have to get 80% in the class to pass but if you're using it as a prereq for the nursing program, you have to have 85% or you have to retake it. I saw her after the semester was over and she told me she got 78.5% in the class and she was pissed that the professor wouldn't bump her up to 80% so it would be considered passing so she could at least apply to the respiratory therapy program instead of nursing.

[Guest Speed Racer]

My uncle had a placard right below his name sign on his office that said, "If you cannot obtain what I deem to be a very reasonable grade in this course, then I do not want you as my doctor, nurse, therapist, or best friend. Your grade is final."

[Winston Legthigh]

His best friend had to take his course?