Wisconsin is the New Egypt

[PopTodd]

The new Republican governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker is currently proposing legislation that would essentially destroy state workers' unions (exempt are police & firefighters, go figure...). Yesterday, more than 10,000 protesters gathered at the capitol, including firefighters who are protesting in solidarity.

 

Today, the Madison public school district is closed because over 40% of the teachers called in sick, in protest.

 

The governor's readied the National Guard, just in case.

LINK

[LouieB]

One could hope that there will be a full scale uprising in Wisconsin, but the circumstances are quite different. Unlike Egypt where the entire populace has been living under a virtual dicatator for 30 years, the only folks in Wisconsin who are really going to be upset about this are public employees. Now admitedly there are lots of public employees in any given state, but at the present moment, public employees are like the new communists and have very few allies.

 

As a similar public employee here in IL, we just settled our little union contract with no raises for three years (we get a bit of money which does not bump up our yearly salary) and we were pretty much told by the federal mediator to take it or go on strike. (We took it!!!) Public employees have no friends, not in the general public, not in the legislatures, not in the governors mansions or anywhere these days, People who are not public employees have been told we are over paid, over benefitted,and over pensioned. Everyone hates us. If they turned loaded guns on the demonstrators in Wisconsin most people would probably be just as happy because it would mean they wouldn't have to pay salaries, pensions, and benefits for what are percieved as undeserving, underworking, tax sucking unnecessary workers.

 

Wisconsin is a bellweather on this. If they lose collective bargaining rights there, surely other states will follow suit. Meanwhile no one will raise a finger to help them (us) this time around.

 

Only 40% of the teachers in the Peoples Republic of Madison were sick? What was up with the other 60%??

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

If they turned loaded guns on the demonstrators in Wisconsin most people would probably be just as happy because it would mean they wouldn't have to pay salaries, pensions, and benefits for what are percieved as undeserving, underworking, tax sucking unnecessary workers.

 

Yeah, probably not.

 

More than anything, I think this is the first state in which we are seeing its citizens (and, subsequently, employees) reacting to massive fiscal irresponsibility.

[Preferred B]

The Madison police were out protesting along with the teachers and other workers today, too. Some teacher friends of mine were there at the capitol. Even if the Republicans ignore the mass protests and do what they're going to do anyway, the public demonstrations are at least making me feel slightly better about humanity.

 

If they turned loaded guns on the demonstrators in Wisconsin most people would probably be just as happy because it would mean they wouldn't have to pay salaries, pensions, and benefits for what are percieved as undeserving, underworking, tax sucking unnecessary workers.

And yeah, that's crap.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Yeah, probably not.

 

More than anything, I think this is the first state in which we are seeing its citizens (and, subsequently, employees) reacting to massive fiscal irresponsibility.

 

 

There will be a lot of tightening of the belt at the state level. The problem is relatively simple. Government spends a lot. People hate paying taxes. Government raises taxes to try and balance the budget, people march in the streets. Government attempts to cutback spending to balance the budget, people march in the streets.

 

Problem is simple. Solution is hard. America isn't real good on solutions these days.

[LouieB]

Clearly I was speaking hyperbole, but the fact remains. Most folks don't support public sector employees at this point. Mostly what you see are public employees demonstrating for their benefits. There happen to be a whole ton of us. So therefore there are a ton of folks demonstrating. But the general public doesn't support us. Demonstrations of this kind are by the unions, not a general uprising of the populace. Unions represent only about 10% of all workers and many (if not most) of them are now public employees.

 

Even today in the Trib there was a story regarding the effort to have state retirees pay for their health insurance. There was already a law passed in Illinios to create a two tiered system of retirement for younger workers.

 

Any non-public employees been out to your state capitols to support teacher, university professors, welfare workers, prison guards, state bureaucrats, federal employees, county employees, city employees, public healthcare workers, public sanitation workers, public transit workers, or those protesting privitization efforts? Just curious.

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

Most folks don't support public sector employees at this point. Mostly what you see are public employees demonstrating for their benefits.

 

There's a HUGE difference between supporting public-sector employees and supporting benefits like pensions and, frankly, a lot of the union and tenure rules.

 

A friend of mine has been trying to get an incompetent Illinois public school teacher fired on the basis of incompetency right now (she's a teacher for the deaf who refuses to use ASL instead of/or with speech) - turns out only one person in the history of the state of Illinois has been fired from teaching on the basis of incompentency. That's not right, and that's not doing stakeholders (citizens of Illinois) any favors.

 

I support tons of public employees, but the pension system is not long for this world and a lot of the infrastructure could stand to be revised.

[Doug C]

I agree with Lou. Here in Florida, us public employees are the in vogue bogeymen.

[Guest Speed Racer]

My dad's a state employee in Florida. No one's stoned him yet...?

[Doug C]

My dad's a state employee in Florida. No one's stoned him yet...?

Did I say that FL public employess were getting stoned (in the Biblical sense)? Your dad doesn't feel that his pay, benefits and pension are being attacked? Is he paying attention?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Your dad doesn't feel that his pay, benefits and pension are being attacked? Is he paying attention?

 

Since he doesn't support the pension system, no. He doesn't care for his pay, but Florida doesn't have a whole lot to offer anyone in that regard right now, public or private.

[LouieB]

There's a HUGE difference between supporting public-sector employees and supporting benefits like pensions and, frankly, a lot of the union and tenure rules.

 

I support tons of public employees, but the pension system is not long for this world and a lot of the infrastructure could stand to be revised.

If you don't support our pension, benefits, health insurance, tenure etc which was gained by collective bargaining agreements, (or in the case of Illinois the pensions by the state constitution) then you actually DON'T support public employees. There is no point in saying you support us if you want to strip us of the rights we have won through collective bargaining. That IS the whole point of what is going on in Wisconsin and the a number of other states.

 

So really I was NOT wrong about this. I understand how folks are pissed off about this, but that's the fact. When push comes to shove it is always...oh those lazy incompetent government workers....they don't deserve all that stuff. When the big unions go down...AFSCME, AFT, NEA, SEIU (who also represent government employees as do the Teamsters and the Auto Workers) there will be NO more Unions of any consequence in this country, since the industrial and trade unions are a pale reflection of their past glory.

 

Oh and by the way...it hasn't happened in a several decades, but national guard or other armed troops HAVE turned their guns on organized labor. Time to get out the history books.

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

If you don't support our pension, benefits, health insurance, tenure etc which was gained by collective bargaining agreements, (or in the case of Illinois the pensions by the state constitution) then you actually DON'T support public employees. There is no point in saying you support us if you want to strip us of the rights we have won through collective bargaining. That IS the whole point of what is going on in Wisconsin and the a number of other states.

 

The best way for me to support my state right now, and its employees, is to support responsible spending. What good are collective bargaining rights if the money isn't there to back-up what you argued for? Who else is losing out so that public employees can have pensions? How much does it cost states (and their tax-paying public employees) in the long run to support benefits the state can't afford to pay.

 

I'm not talking about stripping public employees of their rights, just toning them down. EVERYTHING about state spending has to tone-down right now - belts need to tighten.

 

That's the best way I can think of to support my public employees.

 

Oh and by the way...it hasn't happened in a several decades

 

Should I also start worrying about which room I'll fit my next computer in?

 

I know you're worried about your own job, but not one person here has expressed any ire toward government workers, or described them in any way resembling "lazy" or "incompetent" - excepting the one actually incompetent example I brought up, which was used as a means of describing a broken and bloated system, not the workers themselves.

[Analogman]

If you don't support our pension, benefits, health insurance, tenure etc which was gained by collective bargaining agreements, (or in the case of Illinois the pensions by the state constitution) then you actually DON'T support public employees. There is no point in saying you support us if you want to strip us of the rights we have won through collective bargaining. That IS the whole point of what is going on in Wisconsin and the a number of other states.

 

So really I was NOT wrong about this. I understand how folks are pissed off about this, but that's the fact. When push comes to shove it is always...oh those lazy incompetent government workers....they don't deserve all that stuff. When the big unions go down...AFSCME, AFT, NEA, SEIU (who also represent government employees as do the Teamsters and the Auto Workers) there will be NO more Unions of any consequence in this country, since the industrial and trade unions are a pale reflection of their past glory.

 

Oh and by the way...it hasn't happened in a several decades, but national guard or other armed troops HAVE turned their guns on organized labor. Time to get out the history books.

 

LouieB

 

Thanks for posting that.

[Sparky speaks]

I recall people getting pissed off at teachers when we were making 10 grand a year while the rest of the professional work force was making three to four times that. I know, I was one of them, pulling in a whopping 9 grand a year and being threatened with jail if I went on strike. Everyone is quick to blame teacher unions for what they have gained by standing up for their rights and fighting for due process throughout the years. We have contributed large sums of money into our pension funds and we plan on getting what is rightfully ours when we retire. My state has underfunded their share of the state teachers retirement fund for decades. It is nothing new. We have also been denied the right to collect full Social Security benefits, if we qualify, since Ron Reagan passed the "double dipping" law in the 80's. The "tenure" laws are essential for the prevention of teachers being arbitrarily removed from their jobs by people with political or personal agendas. Unfortunately, this was a common and widespread practice in most communities before we secured this right. To remove a teacher, all administrators have to do is follow the procedures of due process which are in our contract. If they are not willing to take the proper legal steps, that's not my problem. I applaud the folks in Wisconsin. It is not just public servants who are being targeted. The whole middle class will be, and in many cases it is already, the victim of austerity fascism which will be sweeping the nation in the coming months and years. Why aren't you all pissed at the bankers and Wall Street criminals who are protected by the great Obama administration. They are the ones responsible for this mess. The strategy of divide and conquer is very evident here. Some of you are falling for it. Don't be distracted by the slight of hand being pulled off on this issue. Government leaders are passing the buck and trying to get everyone upset at public servants and their unions. They try to convince you that they are the cause of the financial collapse that is going on all around us while the elite who have been robbing us of trillions get away without a mention. Without unions, there would never have been a middle class in this country.

[ikol]

So why don't all employees have the right to tenure?

[Doug C]

So why don't all employees have the right to tenure?

They do. They just need to negotiate it into the contract they have with their employer.

[dark]

I was a unionized Government for 22 years. The union through negotiations gave me a pretty decent living and very good benifits. The Union also created a workforce that promoted mediocre behaviour (and I am being kind). Looking back I know that merit based work places is the only way to have productivity and efficency. I hope my pension is still there but I am not counting on it. The Unions need to see that the times have changed and they need to make concessions or we all go down.

[ikol]

I don't think my career is unionized, so I guess I'll just have to be competent to stay hired.

[Sparky speaks]

And you are competent, educated and employed because you were taught by teachers who motivated and inspired you.

[ikol]

Yeah, but that was like 20% of the teachers I had. The coach that "taught" my sophomore biology class was overpaid if he was making minimum wage.

[Sparky speaks]

Look, teachers are evaluated on a regular basis by administrators who follow pretty strict guidelines in the district I teach. Tenure is not granted until after your fourth year of teaching. Four years of observations, some announced and most unannounced, should be more than enough to determine if that "new" teacher should be granted tenure. Before that time, they can be released without any recourse and several are released every year in my district. They get their layoff notice and are sent home with little or no help from the union. Once a teacher is granted tenure he or she cannot be dismissed without due process which is set forth in our contract. There are steps and procedures that both the teacher and the administrator must follow. Attempts are made to rectify any weaknesses or problems that the administrators observe. If those are not successfully rectified by the teacher, the process of termination is begun. Yeah, it might take six months to a year but that is what is meant by "due process". If the administrators had any doubts about a teachers competency prior to granting tenure, then in my opinion they shouldn't have granted it. The problem often lies in poor administrators or administrators who don't have the balls to act when they had the chance.

Remember, many administrators leave the classroom because they don't like to teach. Recently, the trend is to bring in people from the business world to act as administrators who then attempt to force the business model down our throats. You can see how well they have handled the economy with their methods. You don't go from being a good teacher to a poor one in my opinion. The "best" teachers tend to be the ones with the most experience as is beautifully documented in Diane Ravitch's book The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education. Let me put it this way, if you need heart surgery to live, do you want the surgeon just completing his internship to operate on you or do you want the surgeon who has performed the procedure successfully, hundreds of times over a few decades, to do the job? I think we know the answer to that one. The real problem is the printing of 14 trillion dollars out of thin air which has been given to the banksters who have lead us down the path of economic destruction the past three or four decades. It's not your public employees or your public school teachers who are to blame. But hey, everyone needs a scapegoat.

 

This should help jog some memories. Get mad at this...

IT’S THE DERIVATIVES, STUPID!

WHY FANNIE, FREDDIE AND AIG ALL HAD TO BE BAILED OUT

http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/its_the_derivatives.php

[LouieB]

Thanks for posting that.

You are welcome comrade!!!!

 

I don't think my career is unionized, so I guess I'll just have to be competent to stay hired.

 

Actually this is not correct. Publicly hired doctors ARE in Unions. A very good friend of mine is the representative for the doctors which are hired in the Cook County health system. They are also in a pitched battle for collective bargaining rights.

 

Okay so workers need to tighten their belts, which includes public employees. Actually we have tightened and continue to tight our belts along with everyone else. (see my earlier comments about working without a raise for four years... I also pay more into my pension than I used to...) For those who think that the Wisconsin workers should be willing to pay more for their pensions and health benefits (while insisting this is not a union busting issue), all you guys are clearly on the same side as the Chicago Tribune. For everyone's reading pleasure I have cut and pasted it below. Apparently there is some doubt that this is just about belt tightening. I don't think you could get thousands of teachers to walk out of their classrooms for that. Somehow it smacks of far more than that, but call me a commie....

 

LouieB

 

Lost: The common good

7:36 PM CST, February 17, 2011

 

 

America's labor movement can claim historic victories that have served the common good. Safer workplaces. Laws to protect children from workplace exploitation. The eight-hour workday. Those who are in unions can justifiably be proud of those and other accomplishments.

 

But how proud are they that the children of Madison, Wis., have missed school the last two days because so many of their teachers abandoned their classrooms and joined a mass demonstration? Joined a mass demonstration to intimidate the members of the Wisconsin Legislature, who are trying to close a $3 billion deficit they face over the next two years?

 

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker has demanded that state workers contribute roughly 5.8 percent of their wages toward their retirement. He wants them to pay for 12 percent of their health-care premiums. Those modest employee contributions would be the envy of many workers in the private sector.

 

Walker wants government officials to have authority to reshape public-employee benefits without collective bargaining. Walker wouldn't remove the right of unions to bargain for wages.

 

No, he is not seeking to eliminate unions, though you might get that impression from the heated rhetoric of the employees and even from President Barack Obama, who called this an "assault on unions."

 

Walker is trying to give Wisconsin a reality check. In response, public workers have interrupted the Legislature. Madison and many neighboring public schools have closed because so many teachers called in sick and left to join the protest. Democratic lawmakers disappeared on Thursday to stall a vote on the budget measures. Apparently some of them fled to … Illinois.

 

Public sentiment is changing. There is a growing sense that public-sector unions are not battling for better, safer workplaces. They're not battling unscrupulous employers. They're battling … the common good.

 

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie became an Internet sensation when he confronted a teacher in an argument caught on video. A recent Quinnipiac University survey in New Jersey showed that citizens overwhelmingly support layoffs and wage freezes for public employees to save the state government from fiscal disaster. The poll found 62 percent of New Jersey voters had a favorable view of teachers, but only 27 percent had a favorable view of the state's largest teachers union.

 

Private-sector union membership has declined over the years, while public-sector unions have thrived. One reason: In the private sector, unions and management may argue but they have a common cause. They understand that if their company cannot compete, it will fold and no one will have a job. Look what happened to the U.S. auto industry.

 

Governments don't operate under the constraints of market forces. They operate under political forces. Public unions play an inordinate role in the selection of management — witness the heavy union support for Gov. Pat Quinn's election last year. In Illinois, labor and management, Republicans and Democrats, have been complicit over the years in overpromising wages and benefits. In negotiations, they essentially sit on the same side of the table: Public officials who generously compensate workers tend to reap votes, contributions and campaign work from those same employees and their unions.

 

Many states — Illinois is not yet among them — are coming to the realization that that calculation has to undergone a wrenching change.

 

It might surprise the protesters in Madison to know that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt counseled against public-sector unions because "militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees." Even the late AFL-CIO President George Meany expressed reservations.

 

Something is happening. Something is changing. In Madison, we see public servants in mass protest to preserve a status quo that has pushed the state toward insolvency. This is not labor versus management. This is labor versus the common good.

 

 

Copyright © 2011, Chicago Tribune

[Smokestack Joe]

I was a unionized Government for 22 years. The union through negotiations gave me a pretty decent living and very good benifits. The Union also created a workforce that promoted mediocre behaviour (and I am being kind). Looking back I know that merit based work places is the only way to have productivity and efficency. I hope my pension is still there but I am not counting on it. The Unions need to see that the times have changed and they need to make concessions or we all go down.

 

Thanks for being honest.

My job is based on commission and others at my work are paid salary. The commission-based employees work harder then the salary workers.

Times have changed but some people aren't ready for big changes.

 

I'm heading to Madison today, not for political reasons, wondering if i will see a smoky, fiery haze over the city.....

[Sparky speaks]

Here's something else to direct your anger towards rather than teacher unions...

 

More than two-thirds of corporations filing income tax returns with Wisconsin in 2003 owed the state nothing, according to a study released Monday.

 

The information came from an analysis of data compiled by the Wisconsin Department of Revenue, said Jack Norman, research director of the Institute for Wisconsin's Future, who did the study.

 

"It is no secret to the Wisconsin business community that their taxes are low," Norman said in a speech at Milwaukee's Central Library. He repeated the presentation Monday in Madison and Spring Green.

 

According to the data Norman presented, 67% of the 54,644 corporations that filed returns in 2003 paid no income taxes. That is the last year for which complete data are available, and Norman produced the Revenue Department tables upon which his conclusions were based.

 

Link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/17/946185/-The-Elephants-in-WisconsinRational-Fixes