Health Care and/or Insurance

[M. (hristine]

'Twas the health insurance companies that told Hillary how to shove it up her ass with her big idea for a modicum of universal health care.

 

"The health care system of the United States is hostage to the enormous profits distributed to insurance companies, hospital corporations, and drug purveyors. They swarm over the Congress, plying the legislative system with money, "expertise", and favors. Congressmen leave their seats to take jobs with pharmaceutical companies, as did Jim Greenwood of Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and Billy Tauzin of the 3rd District of Louisiana.

 

The healthcare corporate lobbies will not give up their piece of this 2 trillion dollar goldmine, for reasons of social equity. It is a lobby as venal and predatory as the arms procurement lobby, trading human lives straight up for money."

 

Interesting article.

 

And this.

[uncle wilco]

very nice! We can not look to a small european country for an example on health care. But what we do need is some affordable preventive care. Just as women go to the doctor once a year for a "check-up" there should be a responsibility for all US citizens to do the same for general health. And perhaps the responsibilty of our country to provide some coverage for this. IMO

 

i think the industry should be better regulated to start with. make health care providers more consumer friendly in cost and coverage. there's too many "suits" with their hands in the cookie jar and nobody is paying attention.

[deepseacatfish]

i think the industry should be better regulated to start with. make health care providers more consumer friendly in cost and coverage. there's too many "suits" with their hands in the cookie jar and nobody is paying attention.

That and the constant need to please stockholders are definitely holding back any sort of equitable form of health care.

 

Here's a couple numbers to push around:

In 2004 (the latest year data are available), total national health expenditures rose 7.9 percent -- over three times the rate of inflation. Total spending was $1.9 TRILLION in 2004, or $6,280 per person. Total health care spending represented 16 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

 

U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4 TRILLION in 2015, or 20 percent of GDP.

 

Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.

 

Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

 

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

 

Since 2000, employment-based health insurance premiums have increased 87 percent, compared to cumulative inflation of 18 percent and cumulative wage growth of 20 percent during the same period.

 

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

[John Smith]

In essence Tthose who have medical Insurance are subsidized by the whole pool of insured...and they subsidize the uninsured. The way I look at it is I have insurance. It costs me $x twice a month. It also costs me $x +20% up to a certain $$ amount. If universal healthcare came in and my taxes rose by the amount I currently pay and the amount I currently pay was no longer deducted, I would be fine with that, especially if it makes our countrya better country. I don't believe in social darwinism, so I am not as inclined to say screw them if they can't aford it. We never know what a persons circumstances for nnot having health insurance are.

[Dreamin']

The reason Canada, France, India, etc have cheap socialized medicine is because Americans are footing the bill by paying taxes for research grants and paying higher prices for medicine and treatment.

I'm skeptical. The American system is for-profit, so I don't know why you would be subsidizing health care for the rest of us. If this is true, it doesn't make sense from a business (or a political) perspective. Who knew that Big Pharma was so altruistic? If I was a share holder, I'd be asking questions!

 

I suspect that a lot of $ is going toward administrative costs (it's just not as efficient as a single payer system like ours) and ending up in corporate pockets. It doesn't surprise me that the US spends more on research than Canada since our population is comparatively small (a little over 30 million people, or about the size of California). I would be interested to know how much $ is spent on research per capita.

 

This is an old article (2000), but it's interesting

Salon: U.S. ranked 36 for health care

[Sandoz]

Slightly off-topic, but just out of curiosity, how many insured people here on VC (1) have a primary care physician and (2) have an annual physical for preventive medicine (excluding the gyne appts that are mandatory to get a precription for birth control)? Easy access to preventive medicine should be a main focus. The richest nation should be the healthiest, not the fattest and laziest (wishful thinking)...just think, if the United States focused on good nutrition and preventing obesity (probably our country's top epidemic in terms of health sequelae), that would prevent the vast majority of the hypertension, coronary artery disease, type II diabetes, stroke, hypercholesterolemia....all the crap that made me go into pediatrics. Of course, now we're seeing many of these problems in kids too. Ugh.

[alison the wilca]

I do have a doctor and I get my yearly exams, since you asked It is certainly helpful and I am thankful my doctor is easy to see. Having to wait for tests and exams needed seems vaguely scary.

 

We can't forget adequate dental care, too, since dental problems can be indicitive of greater health problems. Is this included in countries with socialized care?

 

One potential problem I see with healthcare for all is that the US is already short on family doctors. Making care available to all could prevent people from getting timely care and follow-ups which could mean worsened conditions?

 

i think it would be fabulous for all to have access to care... but is it do-able?

[ikol]

I'm skeptical. The American system is for-profit, so I don't know why you would be subsidizing health care for the rest of us. If this is true, it doesn't make sense from a business (or a political) perspective. Who knew that Big Pharma was so altruistic? If I was a share holder, I'd be asking questions!

 

We're subsidizing your healthcare because Canada price fixes drugs. The drug companies can still make a profit in that they're selling the drugs for more than they cost to produce, but they have to increase the price in America to make up for the initial research cost needed to develop the drugs. Since Canadians aren't paying as much, the price in America is higher than it otherwise would be. Drug research is risky and expensive. You have to invest billions of dollars to take 10,000 compounds and whittle them down to one, and after 10 or 15 years of testing that one compound is still unlikely to be a profitable drug. You have to have a huge payoff to make the risk worth it.

[M. (hristine]

We're subsidizing your healthcare because Canada price fixes drugs. The drug companies can still make a profit in that they're selling the drugs for more than they cost to produce, but they have to increase the price in America to make up for the initial research cost needed to develop the drugs. Since Canadians aren't paying as much, the price in America is higher than it otherwise would be. Drug research is risky and expensive. You have to invest billions of dollars to take 10,000 compounds and whittle them down to one, and after 10 or 15 years of testing that one compound is still unlikely to be a profitable drug. You have to have a huge payoff to make the risk worth it.

"In the past years, we have started to see, for the first time, the beginnings of public resistance to rapacious pricing and other dubious practices of the pharmaceutical industry. It is mainly because of this resistance that drug companies are now blanketing us with public relations messages. And the magic words, repeated over and over like an incantation, are research, innovation, and American. Research. Innovation. American. It makes a great story.

 

But while the rhetoric is stirring, it has very little to do with reality. First, research and development (R&D) is a relatively small part of the budgets of the big drug companies

[jenbobblehead]

my insurance will pay for only 80% (and for that i'm thankful!) of my physical therapy for my back, but will pay for 100% of surgery i just have to have surgery.

I suppose in some says i'd rather they pay 100% of things that are cheaper FIRST, like preventative care and wellness visits and credits for exercise and not smoking and stuff, rather than make you pay out of pocket for those things...

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I'm skeptical. The American system is for-profit, so I don't know why you would be subsidizing health care for the rest of us. If this is true, it doesn't make sense from a business (or a political) perspective. Who knew that Big Pharma was so altruistic? If I was a share holder, I'd be asking questions!

 

I suspect that a lot of $ is going toward administrative fees (it's just not as efficient as a single payer system like ours) and ending up in corporate bank accounts. It doesn't surprise me that the US spends more on research than Canada since our population is comparatively small (a little over 30 million people, or about the size of California). I would be interested to know how much $ is spent on research per capita.

 

This is an old article (2000), but it's interesting

Salon: U.S. ranked 36 for health care

 

The exploding costs for big pharm are not for research, but for advertising. Television and sales reps meant to grease the hands of doctors.

[Tweedling]

........sales reps meant to grease the hands of doctors.

That is illegal

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Sure, pay for play is. Did they make dinners and gifts illegal, though?

[Tweedling]

Dinners have to be educational and gifts can't be more than 50 bucks or something like that. Nothing that would "influence" the prescribing of particular drugs. Gone are the days of ski trips for the family and Rolex watches for the office staff.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

But can you give them Marlboro Miles?

[Dreamin']

I do have a doctor and I get my yearly exams, since you asked It is certainly helpful and I am thankful my doctor is easy to see. Having to wait for tests and exams needed seems vaguely scary.

 

We can't forget adequate dental care, too, since dental problems can be indicitive of greater health problems. Is this included in countries with socialized care?

 

One potential problem I see with healthcare for all is that the US is already short on family doctors. Making care available to all could prevent people from getting timely care and follow-ups which could mean worsened conditions?

Alison, we do have a shortage of family physicians in Canada, because medical schools have cut back on enrolment and more students are choosing specialties over family medicine. An estimated 4 million Canadians don't have a family doctor (must rely on walk-in clinics for primary care).

 

As Dr. Judy said, access to preventive medicine is key. I see my family doctor about once a year (it's usually easy to get an appt.) and I received excellent prenatal care with a schedule of monthly/weekly visits to an obstetrician. After Hannah was born, we got a home visit from a public health nurse as well as follow-up phone calls for the first few weeks to help us get off to a good start with breastfeeding, answer questions about newborn care and health concerns, etc. There's also a 24 hr nurse hotline that I can call. Hannah follows a regular schedule of visits with her doctor for check-ups and immunizations, and her referral to Children's Hospital for physiotherapy (to treat torticollis) went smoothly. As far as I can tell, children seem to get a very high standard of care.

 

As far as waiting for tests, etc., the routine stuff (lab, ultrasound, x-ray, etc.) is very accessible, but we do have to wait for things like MRI.

 

Stuff that isn't covered:

 

In addition to the medically necessary insured hospital and physician services covered by the Canada Health Act, provinces and territories also provide a range of services and benefits outside the scope of the Act. These additional services and benefits are provided at provincial and territorial discretion, on their own terms and conditions, and may vary from one province or territory to another. Additional services may include optometric services, dental services, chiropractic services and prescription drug benefits.

 

The additional services provided by the provinces and territories may be targeted to specific population groups (e.g., children or seniors), and may be partially or fully covered by provincial and territorial health insurance plans.

 

A number of services provided by hospitals and physicians are not considered medically necessary, and thus are not insured under provincial and territorial health insurance legislation. Uninsured hospital services for which patients may be charged include preferred hospital accommodation unless prescribed by a physician, private duty nursing services, cosmetic surgery, and the provision of telephones and televisions. Uninsured physician services for which patients may be charged include telephone advice, the provision of medical certificates required for work, school, insurance purposes and fitness clubs, testimony in court, and cosmetic surgery.

Canada Health Act

[alison the wilca]

this is all very interesting.. thanks, judy! i was too busy at work to go to the links you had given

 

off topic- last night i dreamed that my family and i were vacationing in your avatar!!! well it was a cross between your avatar and maybe the photos of iceland that have been floating around here lately... but it definitely took place in canada.

[Guest tandylacker]

those costs are dirt cheap compared to a major medical issue. god forbid anything real bad happens cause that $8k can turn into $80k, which could turn into $800k if you go from baby born - to car accident with spinal surgery & rehabiliitation - to brain cancer & post surgical treatment for a year.

Then let me know how that "Everybody should pay for themselves when a medical necessity arises. " works out for you. (or the family you leave behind with the debt)

 

There are plenty of programs if you are in an $80k situation or $800k you can get bailed out by the state. At least in Idaho...

 

My cousin was in a major car accident, got thrown out of his car going over 70 on a farm road. Torn liver, broken ribs, punctured lung, shattered pelvis, tracheotomy, head injuries, etc. etc. Seemed as good as dead for a while, ran up a tab to over $150k and received a 'grant' from the state to cover the cost. Not from any medicare coverage relating to income level. His much older brother actually had a similar incident, fell out of the back of a truck in a subdivision, hit his head on the pavement. Caused slight brain damage and sort of temporary paralysis. Ran up the tab, got it covered by the government.

 

Health care is, for the most part, fine in the United States. Part of the reason why the health care costs are so incredibly high is because the care is so incredibly good. Twenty years ago, I'm sure both of my cousins would have been dead. No cost there.

 

I know I may sound like a douche bag with my 'pay for yourself' stance, but seriously, pay for yourself. Don't spend money on things you don't need. Many Americans have insane amounts of credit card debt, should the government pay for that? If Canada's government starts paying people's credit card debt, will 'should the US also pay?' become the new argument?

 

These are of course arguments made by a fiscal Republican.

[MrRain422]

I don't think anyone would make the argument that you have an absolute right to credit cards on the same level as your right to access to health care. This slope ain't that slippery.

[Dreamin']

Canadians do pay our own way, it's just that our model is "sharing for survival." It's not drug companies gouging US residents that pays for universal health care in Canada, it's taxes. We pay much higher taxes than Americans do.

 

(I'm a social democrat, so I don't have a problem with that. Others, of course, do.)

 

Surprisingly, I've heard that the US govt. spends more per capita on health care than we do. WTF?

[plasticeyeball]

Health care is, for the most part, fine in the United States. Part of the reason why the health care costs are so incredibly high is because the care is so incredibly good.

 

speechless

[Guest tandylacker]

I don't think anyone would make the argument that you have an absolute right to credit cards on the same level as your right to access to health care. This slope ain't that slippery.

 

I'm not really saying that a credit card argument would ever come up. I just don't see why people think the government should do any more than they already do to pay for people's health care. It seems as ridiculous as someone saying the government should pay off their credit cards. 'Oh, just this once!' You can get a one time tax relief though. Some people make huge settlements.

 

I don't want what the canadians have. I want better care than that.

 

speechless

 

The care is incredibly good as in... in depth, high tech, accurate, etc.

 

Speechless, really?

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Do you think your cousins wouldn't be as healthy were they in Canada?

[plasticeyeball]

i think 50+ million americans living without coverage is 50+ million too many.

 

the reason they don't have coverage is because it's too expensive and they can't afford it.

 

I pay 80% more, personally & for employee's, than i did 5 years ago. I'm speechless because I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually say that " Health care is, for the most part, fine in the United States."

 

it's too much money and come august for me, it will go up another 15% to 20% and that, to me, is a sure sign that there is something wrong with the system.

[Dreamin']

I don't want what the canadians have. I want better care than that.

When you compare Canadians and insured Americans, the quality of our health care is about the same, and our infant and child mortality rates and life expectancy are slightly better.

 

WHO report

 

off topic- last night i dreamed that my family and i were vacationing in your avatar!!! well it was a cross between your avatar and maybe the photos of iceland that have been floating around here lately... but it definitely took place in canada.

Did you stay in the ice hotel?