sneak preview SiCKO

[Dreamin']

I remember the early days of the war when CNN showed computer animation of US weapons like it was a video game.

 

One of the strangest parts of the intro was when they played a soundbite of an unidentified woman saying, "he has played fast and loose with the facts." (Even in the transcript, she is the only person who is not identified.) WTF???? And Lou Dobbs...

 

Even though Moore comes off as shrill, a bit paranoid, and possibly racist (mocking Gupta's name at the end wasn't too smart), I think he did a pretty good job of remaining focused on the issues and directing people to his website. CNN vs. the facts

[ikol]

It's kind of interesting that a "documentary" filmmaker who specializes in misleading through splicing together taped footage won't allow a taped interview.

[uncle wilco]

i don't want socialized healthcare until michael moore loses about 100 pounds.

[cryptique]

i don't want socialized healthcare until michael moore loses about 100 pounds.

He's working on it, actually. I saw a recent interview with him and he acknowledged that there was something hypocritical about someone in his shape putting together such an indictment of the healthcare system, so he's now improving his diet and getting exercise to slim down.

 

I wish him luck ... I'm in the same boat.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I'm going to sell him some weight reduction credits.

[whitedrypages]

went to the sneak preview/screen test of SiCKO this weekend. anyone else see it on the big screen this weekend? thoughts?

Hilarious and scary. Highly recommended. I am worried that my son will never get coverage because he has a minor heart condition. Many of us are one illness away from ruin.

"You can hold on steady, try to get ready, but everybody's gonna get wet.

Don't think it won't happen just because it hasn't happened yet."

- Jackson Browne

[uncle wilco]

He's working on it, actually. I saw a recent interview with him and he acknowledged that there was something hypocritical about someone in his shape putting together such an indictment of the healthcare system, so he's now improving his diet and getting exercise to slim down.

 

I wish him luck ... I'm in the same boat.

i can't fault his message at all. this has got to be the best thing he's come up with. at least he's aware of the conflict.

[anodyne]

again, the big one was a solid attempt to show how the 90s economic boom was a load of shit for most people. moore did a great job of showing the downside to clinton-era downsizing and the stratification of wealth we have now taking root under the president who felt our pain and fondled our daughters.

[Tweedling]

the president who felt our pain and fondled our daughters.

Oooh, I like that. Do you mind if I use it sometime?

[MrRain422]

I just get really tired of people citing the shortcomings of Canada's or Germany's health care systems when arguing against socialized medicine.

 

It is a fact that those nations (among many others) have better health care systems than we do. I believe the most recent studies have the U.S. at thirty-seventh in the world. And yet people continually claim that we have the best health care system in the world. Based on what? Just saying it doesn't make it so.

 

And of course the other nations that we sometimes look to on this issue do not have perfect systems. But just because we are looking at them to see what works does not mean that we cannot also look at what doesn't and implement our system accordingly. Just because we would maybe be adopting some aspects of Canada's system doesn't mean we would have to adopt the whole thing exactly as is. We can analyze other nations' health care systems, adopt what works, and make whatever changes we need to in order to correct whatever shortcomings exist. I just get really annoyed when people scoff at the idea, as if a good idea cannot possibly originate from anywhere but the U.S.

[ikol]

I just get really tired of people citing the shortcomings of Canada's or Germany's health care systems when arguing against socialized medicine.

 

I just get really tired of people citing the shortcomings of the United States' health care systems when arguing against privatized medicine. At least Moore is fair minded and shows both the advantages and disadvantages of socialized medicine in his movie.

 

It is a fact that those nations (among many others) have better health care systems than we do.

 

It is a fact that Dave Matthews Band is a better band than Wilco. The World Organization of Shitty Music ranks DMB way higher than Wilco. Their criteria for ranking bands are not at all arbitrary or subjective, so you know it has to be true.

[MrRain422]

I just get really tired of people citing the shortcomings of the United States' health care systems when arguing against privatized medicine. At least Moore is fair minded and shows both the advantages and disadvantages of socialized medicine in his movie.

 

I think we're arguing from completely different premises here. I personally think that health care is a right and not a privilege for only people who can afford it, and so even the most well concocted privatized system is flawed (and our system is a loooooooooong way from the most well concocted privatized system). But sure, I agree that the U.S.'s flawed system is not necessarily indicative of all privatized systems. I also never made that claim to begin with.

 

It is a fact that Dave Matthews Band is a better band than Wilco. The World Organization of Shitty Music ranks DMB way higher than Wilco. Their criteria for ranking bands are not at all arbitrary or subjective, so you know it has to be true.

 

Are you arguing that quality health care is as subjective as musical taste? That there is no objective way to measure the quality of health care? I'm sorry, but I have a hard time beliving that you really think that.

[ikol]

I think we're arguing from completely different premises here. I personally think that health care is a right and not a privilege for only people who can afford it, and so even the most well concocted privatized system is flawed (and our system is a loooooooooong way from the most well concocted privatized system). But sure, I agree that the U.S.'s flawed system is not necessarily indicative of all privatized systems. I also never made that claim to begin with.

 

For one thing, our system is far from completely privatized. Singapore, which is way up on the list, actually has a larger percentage of healthcare paid for privately than the U.S.

 

Are you arguing that quality health care is as subjective as musical taste? That there is no objective way to measure the quality of health care? I'm sorry, but I have a hard time beliving that you really think that.

 

There are factors relating to healthcare that can be objectively measured, though how much healthcare affects those factors (such life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.) is more difficult to determine. Other factors such as patient satisfaction (which the U.S. ranks highly on) are completely subjective. Which factors you emphasize and how strongly you weight them in ranking nations is arbitrary. So you cannot say it is a fact that they have better healthcare.

[MrRain422]

There are factors relating to healthcare that can be objectively measured, though how much healthcare affects those factors (such life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.) is more difficult to determine. Other factors such as patient satisfaction (which the U.S. ranks highly on) are completely subjective.

 

Patient satisfaction is inherently misleading, because, well, it only accounts for patients. The biggest problem with healthcare in this country is that there are millions upon millions of people who never get to be patients because they have no coverage. The people who have no health care do not get weighed into the "patient satisfaction" equation.

 

Which factors you emphasize and how strongly you weight them in ranking nations is arbitrary. So you cannot say it is a fact that they have better healthcare.

 

This is certainly true, although I still don't think that it means that the rankings are completely meaningless. Just because they may not be perfect does not mean that we can't learn anything at all from them.

[isadorah]

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that michael moore was catching flack for not addressing the doctor's in the US health care system and his response was something along the lines that he found the problems weren't with the doctor's at all.

 

i'd forgotten how awful all aspects of our healthcare system are after spending the past couple of days trying to get medical treatment. a lot of doctor's are just as much a part of the problem. i spent more time waiting in a paper gown than i did actually receiving medical care. it was a kind reminder today that most doctor's schedule 15 minutes for each patient and don't fully listen to what the patient is actually saying. i could go on and on about poor doctor diagnosis and lack of doctoring. but i won't, the post would go on forever.

 

i think our entire health care system is broken, not just insurance companies, doctors, nurses, research, medication, technology, etc.

[OOO]

Gupta vs. Moore, live on CNN right now.

[bjorn_skurj]

Steel cage? Mud? Hot oil? Jell-o?

[Dreamin']

That was on yesterday. I guess they're replaying it.

 

Now I know no one reads my posts.

 

Did anyone just catch the live interview with Michael Moore on CNN? lmao!

 

I remember the early days of the war when CNN showed computer animation of US weapons like it was a video game.

 

One of the strangest parts of the intro was when they played a soundbite of an unidentified woman saying, "he has played fast and loose with the facts." (Even in the transcript, she is the only person who is not identified.) WTF???? And Lou Dobbs...

 

Even though Moore comes off as shrill, a bit paranoid, and possibly racist (mocking Gupta's name at the end wasn't too smart), I think he did a pretty good job of remaining focused on the issues and directing people to his website. CNN vs. the facts

[bjorn_skurj]

That was on yesterday. I guess they're replaying it.

 

Now I know no one reads my posts.

I was going to respond with something along the lines of how I switched to watching the BBC news during the war because of all the hooey and folderol the U.S. networks had on, but since I didn't read your post, I could not respond to it.

[Dreamin']

 

I usually watch BBC or CBC for news, but CNN is great for taking the political temperature in the US. ... And I read the TTL forum to reassure myself that things aren't as bleak as they seem on CNN. (It's nice to know that there are some kindred spirits out there.)

 

I love to follow US politics because

1) it's never boring (unfortunately, we live in interesting times)

2) what goes on south of the border will affect Canadians one way or another.

 

SiCKO will likely have as much (if not more) impact on the future of universal health care in Canada as it will in the US.

[Dreamin']

And of course the other nations that we sometimes look to on this issue do not have perfect systems. But just because we are looking at them to see what works does not mean that we cannot also look at what doesn't and implement our system accordingly. Just because we would maybe be adopting some aspects of Canada's system doesn't mean we would have to adopt the whole thing exactly as is. We can analyze other nations' health care systems, adopt what works, and make whatever changes we need to in order to correct whatever shortcomings exist.

That is an excellent point. (I remember that you've said it before.) All this hair splitting is just an attempt to distract people. I thought it was interesting that CNN made the story all about Michael Moore supposedly "fudging the facts" rather than using SiCKO as a jumping off point to talk about the real issues.

 

In Canada, universal health care (warts and all) is a source of national pride and Tommy Douglas is a hero to many. Canada needs to make changes to reduce wait times, but we seem to be about as stuck in our own rut as the US is right now. Some would like to see if a European model would work here, but since public-private partnerships could open the door to HMOs (under NAFTA), we have to be very cautious about going down that road.

[street spirit]

For one thing, our system is far from completely privatized. Singapore, which is way up on the list, actually has a larger percentage of healthcare paid for privately than the U.S.

 

That's a bit misleading... well, simplistic anyhow. Singapore has a large percentage of healthcare paid for privately, as in, there is an increased onus on individual responsibility. But that individual responsibility manifests itself, in large part, in the Medisave program, which is a forced savings program administered by the government. They still have an emergency program for low income earners and for catastrophic - and costly - illnesses. There is also private insurance, but it operates a lot differently than the current American system. Effectively, it's two tier, which is not what the same as what's currently implemented in the United States.

 

Also, the discrepancy between the percentage that's paid into health care by the governments of the respective countries can largely be chalked up to the discrepancy in efficiency between the two systems. Namely, the system in Singapore is freakishly efficient. Yes, you can point to the market based mechanisms that are built into their system, but when you can also point to where in the culture where individualism is ingrained. Because they're raised to believe it's their responsibility, the preventive side of health care in the country makes us North Americans look like lazy slobs. Unless you're suggesting a major culture shift in North America, you're sort of splitting hairs.

[bobbob1313]

 

While there need to be some changes, I can't see how it's economically feasible to provide universal health care for life to a nation of 300 million people. What does he have to say about how we provide for this?

 

Also, much of the innovation in the pharmaceutical industry comes about as a result of the competition inherent in it being a private enterprise, ie. the sale of your product to the highest bidder. That is the nature of our economic system, and say what you will about how it inherently leads to unfairness, at least it breeds innovation and new ideas. Of course, there is the problem of many disorders not actually being cured, but instead just being treated with prescriptions for a longer time, which ends up making the companies more money. That is a big problem that should be addressed, but it is hard to do so in a private industry like that, since there is demand for these prescriptions.

 

Also, how about Michael Moore's awesome tips on how to stay healthy on that site. I need 879 pound Michael Moore telling me how to stay healthy...

[lizish]

In Canada, universal health care (warts and all) is a source of national pride and Tommy Douglas is a hero to many. Canada needs to make changes to reduce wait times, but we seem to be about as stuck in our own rut as the US is right now. Some would like to see if a European model would work here, but since public-private partnerships could open the door to HMOs (under NAFTA), we have to be very cautious about going down that road.

 

You are never speaking to just yourself and thanks for the CNN link Judy. Moore's style of debating does him no benefit, but he is always entertaining.

 

I loved the Nixon segment to the movie and was contrasting that to Tommy Douglas being arrested in California five or so years after seeing Canadian universal health become fact. The two events are of course unrelated, but seem to have some kind of karmic thread synchronicity.

 

 

Went to the Sicko premiere last month with daughter 1 and her friend Jade. Saw Micheal Moore in the audience and sat aghast watching the whole movie.

 

When the film moved over to London Ontario, and the severed digit comparison, there was Jade and her boyfriend being interviewed in a hospital waiting room. She knew she was in the movie, just not how much.

 

I think she got about 10 seconds of close up time.

[lizish]

I need 879 pound Michael Moore telling me how to stay healthy...

 

wow - way to elevate the discussion. Good going!