When the Roses Bloom again.....

[anodyne]

"roses" was a popular anti-war song during WWI, but it is older than that conflict.

 

if anyone hasn't seen the PBS special on the Carter Family really should.

[Analogman]

When the Roses Bloom Again [beside the River] [Me II-D40] - Cobb, Will D./Edwards, Gus

Pb - When the Roses Bloom (Again) for the Bootlegger

DeFosche, Mike. Silberberg, Gene (ed.) / Complete Fiddle Tunes I Either Did or Did Not., Silberberg, Fol (2005), p210

Greer, Jim; and the Mac-O-Chee Valley Boys. Stars of the WWVA Jamboree, Rural Rhythm RRGreer 152, LP (197?), trk# A.11

Mac and Bob (Lester McFarland & Robert A. Gardner). Mac and Bob's Great Old Song's - Vol 1, Old Homestead OHCS-158, LP (1985), trk# A.06 [1926/10/13]

Moore, Charlie. Country Music Memories. Vol. 1, Old Homestead OHS 90134, LP (1970?), trk# A.05

Sizemore, Asher; and Little Jimmy. Sizemore, Asher; and Little Jimmy / Old Fashioned Hynns and Mountain .., Sizemore, fol (1933), p22

Sizemore, Asher; and Little Jimmy. Sizemore, Asher; and Little Jimmy / Favorite Mountain Ballads & Old T..., Sizemore, fol (1932), p16

When the Roses Bloom (Again) for the Bootlegger [Me II-R31]

 

Pd - When the Roses Bloom Again [beside the River]

Lee, Katie (ed.) / Ten Thousand Goddam Cattle. A History of the Amer...., Katydid, sof (1976), p203 (I'll Be With You When the Roses Bloom Again (Parody))

Fowler, Lavon. Morris, Alton C. / Folksongs of Florida, Univ. Florida, Bk (1950), p 97/# 45 [1934-39]

 

When the Roses Come Again [Me II-D12] - Finch, A. W./Persley, G. W.

Carter Family. Lonesome Pine Special, Camden CAS-2473, LP (1971), trk# 5 [1933/06/17]

Delmore Brothers. Browns Ferry Blues, County 402, LP (1971), trk# A.05 [1937/08/03] (Till the Roses Bloom Again)

 

from here

[LouieB]

The song is copyrighted by A.P. Carter, but has actually been traced back to 1901; the words originally written by Will D. Cobb and Gus Edwards.

As mentioned above, AP and Ralph Peer weren't above ripping someone else off. Those were simpler less litigious times.

 

LouieB

[TCP]

AP and Woody were not the only people that did this. That's what folk music was in the day, people writing and other people re-writing songs.

[dannygutters]

In retrospect it is fairly obvious that these lyrics are not Woody's. Compared to most of the other stuff that appears on the MA sessions, these lyrics are quite different in structure and content. But the words themselves are extremely compelling and touching, making it a great songs. Sally Timms does a great version of this song as well.

 

Oh I dunno, look at a song like "Peace Call", it doesn't seem like typical woody either. Roses is certianly less literal than most of his stuff. If it had a bridge it would be a dead giveaway that it's not a woody song..

 

Hey Louie what was that Carter book called?

[LouieB]

AP and Woody were not the only people that did this. That's what folk music was in the day, people writing and other people re-writing songs.

That is half true. Folk musicians certainly coped songs from each other, but the Carters weren't exactly folk musicians. The Carter Family was at the time one of the best selling country recording artists in the US. They weren't sitting around swapping songs and verses with their neighbors, AP was searching for songs with the clear intent of making records and money on it and not giving credit when he found songs, many of which were like this one, old parlor songs that people had learned off of sheet music. I am not saying it was wrong, since relative to the times it was probably in line with common practice, but it was clearly a combination of plagarism and outright stealing. Our standards now days are quite different, so I am not really being that judgemental, but at least Ralph Peer, a sophisticated and clever businessman knew exactly what AP was doing and it was to his advantage that he continued to do it.

 

Hey Louie what was that Carter book called?

"Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone?: The Carter Family and Their Legacy in American Music" Really good book. The only criticism of it seems to be that there are no foot notes. But it covers the entire family history through to the deaths of Sarah and Mother Maybelle. Good stuff and very readable. It describes in depth how Pleasant (what AP was called by family and friends) went out and found songs to beef up the Carter's repetoire. It also describes how Ralph Peer paid the Carters and made alot of money in the process. The Carters did pretty well when records sold well, but as the Depression deepened they didn't do nearly as well. Even the sections about the later Carter Family members such as Anita and June are really interesting.

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

Oh I dunno, look at a song like "Peace Call", it doesn't seem like typical woody either. Roses is certianly less literal than most of his stuff. If it had a bridge it would be a dead giveaway that it's not a woody song..

I was not familiar with that lyric, but I went and found it just now and surprisingly you can't cut and paste it from the web...how times have changed.

 

Actually this lyric sounds very much like Woody to me (not starting an argument here, just a friendly discussion) both in the content and the structure. When the Roses Bloom again has a distinct meter and rhyming scheme which is something Woody wasn't so much into later in life. Many of the MA songs lack rhyme and meter as well and that's part of their charm. This could easily have fit on MA, at least with many of the songs Billy Bragg took up. On the other hand Roses has some marvelous rhyming schemes and carefully constructed imagery. It is very literary in ways Woody in his later years was not.

 

LouieB

[awatt]

Great song......maybe can be used as an ad for a cemetery chain.

[welch79]

i have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. very interesting stuff here.

 

kinda makes me appreciate how invaluable and unique musical "property" is. also, what a way to convey history, sentimentality and opinions music is.

[LouieB]

yes, the lyrics are credited to A.P. Carter, with the arrangement credited to Wilco.

I looked through the Bear Family Carter Family set last night (which I have not actually found the time to listen to yet) and these lyrics don't appear to be one of their songs. There are a couple that are similar, but not these words nor sentiment.

 

LouieB

[zebra]

Does anybody here have a good quality mp3 of this song live they would pm me? Thanks.

[dixiecupdrinker]

"Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone?: The Carter Family and Their Legacy in American Music" Really good book. The only criticism of it seems to be that there are no foot notes. But it covers the entire family history through to the deaths of Sarah and Mother Maybelle. Good stuff and very readable. It describes in depth how Pleasant (what AP was called by family and friends) went out and found songs to beef up the Carter's repetoire. It also describes how Ralph Peer paid the Carters and made alot of money in the process. The Carters did pretty well when records sold well, but as the Depression deepened they didn't do nearly as well. Even the sections about the later Carter Family members such as Anita and June are really interesting.

 

LouieB

 

Thanks for the book reco, Louie. I'm planning on taking a trip down to the Carter Family Fold for a show sometime.

 

Carter Family Fold

 

The PBS American Experience on them was very good, too.

 

dcd