MLB 2007

[caliber66]

You're right. 756 HR's doesn't equal MVP or 500 or 600 HR's. I simply don't think Bonds deserves to stand alone in facing criticism as he has. Bonds is a product of his era and should be judged accordingly. When MVP's are juiced and when other players are accumulating traditonally Hall of Fame numbers using the stuff, I just can't get too crazy about Bonds breaking the HR record. I still can't forget either that Bonds was probably a HOF'er before a needle ever met his ass. People act like roids made Bonds. Roids have certainly helped him to get to 753 HR's, but the guy was great without them. Wouldn't it be funny if Bonds missed the HOF because of the roids when he was probably already in without them?

Deserving players have been held out of the HOF before for stupid shit they have done. See: Pete Rose, Black Sox, etc. I absolutely recognize that Bonds was a great player before he started using steroids, but there's no way of knowing what his stats would have been without the juice, and that's a problem. And how is Bonds alone in being criticized for using steroids? He and Jason Giambi are essentially the only two active players (who mean anything) we know for sure that have used steroids (Giambi from his own admission, Bonds from the book), and Giambi caught a shitstorm when it came out that he used. Sosa's cleaned up his act and seems to be having a decent go at non-enhanced baseball. All the other players you mentioned above got a lot of hell, but they are out of the sport now (and Caminiti's dead), and are thus out of the spotlight. You think McGuire came through unscathed? Palmeiro didn't play another inning after he tested positive, and Canseco's a joke.

 

Also, is the HR record the biggest batting record in the sport? What about Rose's hit record? Or DiMaggio's hit streak? The hit streak's a batting record, right? I might say that's the biggest record. It's hardly been challenged in our lifetime, while Rose passed Cobb just over 20 years ago and the HR record will now be broken twice in the last 30-odd years. Further, if (a huge if) his health holds up, A-Rod should break Bonds' number. I know people love the HR, but the hit streak and total hits seems to be tougher milestones. Just a thought. Again, I could be completely wrong and be incorrectly downplaying the cultural significance of the long ball.

Yeah, I meant to call it the biggest career batting record, in deference to the hit streak, which is pretty much untouchable. Hits? Yeah, I was watching when Pete Rose broke the record, and it was a big deal, but I think most people put the HR record on a higher pedestal, perhaps because the top two base hits guys are such douchebags. I think most casual sports fans think of Babe Ruth and his home runs as the iconic baseball image, rather than Pete Rose diving into second or Ty Cobb getting the spikes up.

[MrRain422]

The HR record is definately the most prestigious in the sport, and possibly in all of American sports (not saying it's the most impressive necessarily, just the one that has the most mystique around it and the one that people revere the most).

 

And that's exactly why I think people have lost a lot of perspective on Bonds.

[boywiththorninside]

Deserving players have been held out of the HOF before for stupid shit they have done. See: Pete Rose, Black Sox, etc. I absolutely recognize that Bonds was a great player before he started using steroids, but there's no way of knowing what his stats would have been without the juice, and that's a problem. And how is Bonds alone in being criticized for using steroids? He and Jason Giambi are essentially the only two active players (who mean anything) we know for sure that have used steroids (Giambi from his own admission, Bonds from the book), and Giambi caught a shitstorm when it came out that he used. Sosa's cleaned up his act and seems to be having a decent go at non-enhanced baseball. All the other players you mentioned above got a lot of hell, but they are out of the sport now (and Caminiti's dead), and are thus out of the spotlight. You think McGuire came through unscathed? Palmeiro didn't play another inning after he tested positive, and Canseco's a joke.

 

All good points, all true. I still think Bonds gets more criticism than he deserves, but, as has been noted, he's the one breaking the big record.

 

My bottom line is that I don't see his record (when he inevitably gets it) as tainted. This is because the entire era he played in was tainted. Should we discount Ruth's 714 because he played in an era that was segregated? Ruth was kept from competing against the likes of Satchel Paige and others. We probably should consider this when evaluating Ruth's career, but we generally don't. We dismiss this as a product of the times. That's how I see Bonds' record and steroids, products of the time. I don't necessarily like this, and I could be simplifying something much more complicated, but that's how I've come to look at it.

[caliber66]

Fair enough.

[gogo]

I think Vida Blue was at the cash register next to me at the shop at AT&T Park today (we were both stocking up on all-star game merch at 30% off!). I thought he looked familiar (and he had a very "middle aged former athlete" look about him), and in addition to his shopping bags, he also had a fed-ex box with VIDA BLUE magic-markered on the side. I think that being able to have your fed-ex delivered to the ballpark, and not having to wait at home for the delivery, would be one of the coolest perks of being an ex-ballplayer.

[bjorn_skurj]

Good pitcher, that Vida Blue. LOVED those A's when I was a kid.

[bjorn_skurj]

 

[jenbobblehead]

holy shit. 21-4?!!

[bjorn_skurj]

Keats, Shelley and Shakespeare combined could not write a poem to describe the beauty of the pitch on which Billy Wagner just struck out Nomar to seal the Mets' come-from-behind, extra-innings win against LA.

[bobbob1313]

I remember when people where sayign the Mets have a better left side of the infield than the Marlins*. That was cute.

 

2007 stats:

 

 

 

 

*This still happens. It is still cute.

[bjorn_skurj]

Good thing baseball is a team sport.

[bobbob1313]

Good thing baseball is a team sport.

 

I didn't realize we weren't allowed to post anything about specific players in this thread.

 

Guys, we need to delete all of our A-rod and Bonds posts... This thread's gonna be like 4 posts long now...

[Oil Can Boyd]

Welcome back John Lester.

 

[PigSooie]

Here! Here!

 

What an awesome return.

[Lammycat]

I was jacked for this game..

 

Nice to see the boy back.

[MrRain422]

I don't care about the Red Sox, but that's a pretty inspiring story. Truly awesome for that he was able to come back.

[jenbobblehead]

I remember when people where sayign the Mets have a better left side of the infield than the Marlins*. That was cute.

 

2007 stats:

 

*This still happens. It is still cute.

didn't hanley just get hurt?

[PigSooie]

So, Papi got sued?

[bjorn_skurj]

So, Papi got sued?

Good for him. The memorabilia industry makes me want to vom.

[Sir Stewart]

What's this Papi stuff?

[caliber66]

Ortiz sued

[bjorn_skurj]

[Sir Stewart]

Willie Randolph looked amazed that that left the park.

[bobbob1313]

 

This book is nerdy, even for me. But it's engrossing.

[caliber66]

Bonds also said Wednesday that Costas was a