Todd Haynes' "I'm Not There"

[EL the Famous]

Have you ever seen Touch of Evil or The Magnificent Ambersons (to name just a couple of wonderful Welles films)?

 

EDIT: just read your post, boywiththorn

 

best orson welles performance EVER.

 

'get me a jewelry and show me how you can say IN july and i'll go down on you.'

[Mr. Kinsley]

Orson Welles - actor, director, writer, winery spokesman, and willing to place bets that hinge on the rules of english grammar with sexual favors at stake. A renaissance man if ever there was one.

[EL the Famous]

Orson Welles - actor, director, writer, winery spokesman, and willing to place bets that hinge on the rules of english grammar with sexual favors at stake. A renaissance man if ever there was one.

 

fuck ction, that shit is at least as good as 'pet semetary'.

[Sir Stewart]

fuck ction, that shit is at least as good as 'pet semetary'.

 

I'm laughing way too hard at work at "crumb crisp" right now.

[EL the Famous]

I'm laughing way too hard at work at "crumb crisp" right now.

 

'this is a lot of shit, you know that.' 'c'mon fellas, you're losing your head!'

[Sir Stewart]

"you're such pests"

[boywiththorninside]

[giraffo]

 

I might have been off on this one, honestly. But if I hypothetically retaliated to your clip of Orson Welles drunk with a clip of him being in a commerical with Kermit the Frog, could we hypothetically call it even?

[lost highway]

This can be annoying, but it seems it's warranted in our conversation. What exactly is genius supposed to mean? Here's what dictionary.com says:

 

1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart.

2. a person having such capacity.

3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140.

4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination: a special genius for leadership.

5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.

 

I'd say for Dylan:

1. Absoulutely.

2. Yes

3. Hard to say, maybe, maybe not.....

4. More or less.

5. This isn't meant to describe a person, but it fits.

 

If you define genius by IQ than it is quite possible he's not a genius. Most psychologists and sociologists have discounted IQ test as not being a true and accurate measure of intelligence, and as being culturally biased/outdated.

 

If you define it as exceptional ability, I would say the dude is pretty exceptional.

[boywiththorninside]

When I used the word in regard to Dylan I meant:

 

1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart.

2. a person having such capacity.

 

Again, I would stress the use of the word "exceptional," which would mean well-above average or an uncommon talent. While so many others are/were merely talented songwriters, I believe Dylan possesses/possessed an uncommon talent for songwriting.

 

I'm glad to see that you seem to agree.

 

I'd say for Dylan:

 

1. Absoulutely.

2. Yes

 

I overuse the word, but my other possible geniuses (I'm confining myself to rock/pop music - whatever that means - so there's no Gershwin or Berlin or Ellington or Monk, etc. in this list): Brian Wilson, Lennon and McCartney, Tom Waits, Lou Reed, Neil Young, Stevie Wonder, Prince, David Berman. (NOTE: in my mind, all are still below Dylan)

 

Near/potential geniuses - I love them, but I hesitate to put them in my top tier/the upper echelon: Van Morrison, Jagger/Richards, Leonard Cohen, Townes Van Zandt, Elvis Costello, Strummer/Jones, Paul Westerberg, Morrissey, Jeff Tweedy. (I'm sure I've called all these people geniuses, but do they deserve it? It seems to depend on my mood.)

 

EDIT: I just noticed I mentioned no women (other than Morrissey and Prince - I kid). Thus, I'd like to add Lucinda Williams to the near/potential genius list. I'm not sexist, I swear.

[boywiththorninside]

I might have been off on this one, honestly. But if I hypothetically retaliated to your clip of Orson Welles drunk with a clip of him being in a commerical with Kermit the Frog, could we hypothetically call it even?

 

Alternately, you could retaliate with a clip of Welles as the voice of Unicron in the original Transformers movie. Then, yes, we could call it even.

[lost highway]

EDIT: I just noticed I mentioned no women (other than Morrissey and Prince - I kid). Thus, I'd like to add Lucinda Williams to the near/potential genius list. I'm not sexist, I swear.

 

I would be a strong proponent of both Neko Case and Joni Mitchell over Lucinda Williams, but we all like different flavors......I didn't mean that in a sexist way.

[MattZ]

I saw the movie this weekend. I stayed away from all reviews of it (and threads of it ) on the theory that I wanted to go in with no expectations at all.

 

I thought the film was wonderful. A brilliantly and beautifully shot film that was done so lovingly and even-handedly. Were parts of it self-indulgent? Yes, of course. That didnt change the fact that, to me, it was film shot by someone who really *got* it. The use of music was perfect to complement various scenes. Visions of Johanna was particulalry powerful, if I remember correctly. Kudos to Todd Haynes for blowing me away. I got choked up during the first 5 mins of the film. Just thinking about the way the film opened (Dylan taking the stage) is giving me chills.

 

As for the haters on here about Richard Gere, I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I thought Gere was excellent and the scenes with him, although I can't claim that I understood them all completely, were straight out of Dylan songs (and even the cover art for The Basement Tapes?). And the impending doom, portrayed against the two riders approaching from AATW was great. Did anyone else catch that the BBC reporter was Pat Garrett in those scenes? I wasnt sure, but I thought this was the case...

 

I think the film will require multiple viewings (for me) to catch all (or most of) the subtleties. I loved it.

[MattZ]

I have no idea what idea was being introduced by the Billy the Kid (Gere) parts. I'm sure the town's unheval, Garrett, and the suicides must have been some kind of metaphor to me it wasn't at all apparant what they represented. And I agree that these were the most boring parts of the movie. Would you care to explain what you got out of it? I'm not trying to challenge you--I'm really just curious.

 

Well, that scene started with Gere looking off into the distance and All Along the Watchtower playing. I can't say I've ever truly understood what the heck that song was about, but there seemed to be some themes from that song throughout those scenes... The wind was certainly howling, and the impending doom from the storm, certainly. Gere was a rider approaching on horseback. I think Pat Garrett may have also come to the town on horseback? Maybe Billy and Garrett were the two riders approaching? The theme of Vietnam seemed to be a backdrop of the whole scene so I thought the scenes were basically good vs evil with impending doom looming in the distance, decay of society, etc. Also, Dylan as good (Billy) vs. society/Garrett/BBC reporter (Garrett)...?

 

Haha, I really have no idea though.

[Beltmann]

Did anyone else catch that the BBC reporter was Pat Garrett in those scenes?

Yes, I noticed that. And I think the fact that Pat Garrett also underwent a major identity change--outlaw to lawman--connects to the overall theme here.

[Analogman]

Bump ~ for the man

[LouieB]

Thanks A-man...I was also looking in Someone else's song, so go figure...

 

Well the former TG and the rest of the family went to see this movie last night at the Muvico out in Rosemont. We were the only ones in the theater when the previews started, but another couple (yea only two) people joined us. Crazy...

 

Good movie...really good movie, but I suppose it is mostly for Dylan fans. The inside info is rampant, but that makes it fun. There were only a couple moments when the cinematic technique and concept stretch credibility and patience, but nearly all of it was good fun.

 

Two things struck me at the end. First, why didn't they cast Kris Kristoferson as Billy rather than Richard Gere (who was good enough and way better than expected) since he obviously was on board as the narrator. Reprising his role from the Peckenpaw movie would have been great and more of an inside joke. Most critics tore into the Billy sequences but I liked them, a riff on the Basement Tapes with Jim James and Calexico actually getting to perform their song from the sound track.

 

Secondly Charlotte Gainsbourg was the spitting image of Patti Smith, somethng I had not read anywhere. I think this was totally intentional and her performance was amazing.

 

With all the great stuff on the soundtrack I was sort of amazed that more of it was not used in the actual film (actually I wasn't surprised...) but sadly Jeff's song didn't make it.

 

It will be fun to rewatch it when it comes out on DVD.

 

LouieB

[stickman]

I saw it at a local art house a couple of nights ago. The girl I went with said she hated it (could have been because she had to pee the whole time) but I really enjoyed it. It was really beautiful and funny and interesting. I think that if you aren't almost obsessive about Dylan's life/career (as in seen documentaries/read books about him) then a lot of the inferences would get lost. But I really enjoyed it. The only thing that I was disappointed with was how Haynes handled the "Judas!" ordeal. That's one of my favorite moments in all of rock and roll.

 

I read somewhere how the movie is relatively mirrored. I can't really remember all of the characters names but it made sense to me. One question I have is why the Jude character broke the fourth wall at the end? And why did it really end with the real Dylan playing harp?

 

I want to go see it again now.

 

 

PS: Am I the only one that yelled a quick "woo woo" when Kim Gordon showed up?

[LouieB]

I read somewhere how the movie is relatively mirrored. I can't really remember all of the characters names but it made sense to me. One question I have is why the Jude character broke the fourth wall at the end? And why did it really end with the real Dylan playing harp?

I thought the breaking of the 4th wall was actually pretty amazing and very creepy. And I guess they ended with the real Dylan so he could actually be there instead of not there....

 

LouieB

[stickman]

It WAS very creepy. That's exactly how I felt. Do you mind if I use that reason for why he was there when my friends ask me?

[Sir Stewart]

The Billy the Kid scenes were some of my favorites. I thought it was a representation of Dylan's vision of the "old, weird America", and how he sees himself there (as an outlaw, a stranger, a legend). The first Michelle Williams scene, with Blanchett following her like a schoolboy, was probably the most transcendent moment of the film - but my damned hopes going in made me expect many more moments like that. Oh well.

The least successful sequence was the gospel phase. I could picture John C. Reilly or Will Ferrell joining Bale onstage. Then again, that era is sort of considered to be Dylan's most laughable (by many). Hmm.

[SarahC]

Saw it last night with 2 friends. They hated it, but I thought it was really well done. I'm getting into Bob Dylan in a bigger way these days, so I guess I need to rent "Don't Look Back".

[LouieB]

Saw it last night with 2 friends. They hated it, but I thought it was really well done. I'm getting into Bob Dylan in a bigger way these days, so I guess I need to rent "Don't Look Back".

Uh yea.....and then get a copy of Eat the Document and the "Behind the Mirror" (or whatever the doc about Newport is called.) Once you see these you will realize that Haynes copped more ideas from these movies than he thought up himself (particularly mixing and matching the Cate Blanchett scenes). It doesn't make the movie any less fun, but alot of what was portrayed in various parts of the movie are directly and indirectly from those movies, particulary Don't Look Back.

 

Few people have mentioned Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, but it is an interesting movie and Dylan's first time on screen. Also I don't know if Renaldo and Clara is available anywhere on bootlegs, but much of that was also copped for the Haynes film too. Ginsburg and Dylan visiting Kerouac's grave and alot of the whiteface stuff and the switching of characters. Mostly it is a boring piece of crap (I only saw it once on a bad print), but much of the taken as a whole, these movies mirror the Haynes movie. Also a movie no one has yet mentioned is "Bound for Glory" with David Carridine, which is the Woody Guthrie movie. Haven't seen it in years either (it is only so so) but lots of scenes with boxcars and Woody getting free meals and such.

 

If your friends know little about Dylan, then frankly I am not surprised they hated it. I think it was more fun for those of us who are fans.

 

LouieB

[TCP]

Finally saw this (there's a DVD rip of it on the internet........). I liked it a lot, but some of it has me a bit confused. Spoiler don't read on!

Does the Richard Gere character at the end who finds the guitar, does that make him into Woody character or does he simply find his old guitar from when he was Woody? Oh and where was Kim Gordon??

[Sir Stewart]

I can't help you with question 1, but Kim played an interviewee at some point, can't really remember who she was (someone to do with 'Dylan's' record label, or a fellow folkie?). It was set present day. The character looked conservative, that gave me a kick.