isadorah Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 What if I like my healthcare plan, think it does a great job taking care of my family and don't want to see it change? That's what i'm worried about. Did the quality of the overall healhcare system change to accomodate everyone? While I really do want everyone to be covered, I don't feel bad in saying that my first priority is to insure that my family gets the best care possible. In the universal scenario, can I still pay for different heathcare if I don't like the 'universal' care offered? ok, i haven't actually read all of the latest posts in thread through, but in respnose to the above: Hillary's proposed health care plan allows for anyone that already has healthcare coverage and is happy with it to be able to remain with that coverage. if you aren't happy with your coverage or don't have health insurance you can opt into the Government system (which is what all civil servants/federal employees are a part of). i don't know the financial details though. then again, she would have to be elected and it would have to make it through congress to work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 ok, i haven't actually read all of the latest posts in thread through, but in respnose to the above: Hillary's proposed health care plan allows for anyone that already has healthcare coverage and is happy with it to be able to remain with that coverage. if you aren't happy with your coverage or don't have health insurance you can opt into the Government system (which is what all civil servants/federal employees are a part of). i don't know the financial details though. then again, she would have to be elected and it would have to make it through congress to work. thanks. can any of our canadian contingent fill me in on how it works there, if the care is as good as they received before and how it's been holding up financially? if i have a choice, i guess it really doesn't matter. i'm all for everyone having some level of coverage, but i'm still completely unsold it can be done in a financially solvent way that still provides adequate support. i really hope i'm wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I was getting on here to tell how everyone was looking at me in the drivethru at McD's the other day screaming "O-RANGE JUICE!" into the order box, and she kept saying "What? I don't understand...". try "naranja" next time Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 In the universal scenario, can I still pay for different heathcare if I don't like the 'universal' care offered?Well, I guess it's up to the American people to decide how it should work. If you want different tiers of coverage based on ability to pay, then that's the system you should have. In theory, all Canadians should get the same standard of (medically necessary) care that the Prime Minister of Canada and his family receive. In practice, it varies from region to region, most notably in rural/remote vs. urban areas of the country. Some things aren't covered (e.g., dental, vision care, physiotherapy, etc.) depending on your provincial or territorial insurance plan, but if you are employed, you usually receive extended coverage for most of that stuff through your benefits plan. Canada's national health insurance program' date=' often referred to as "Medicare", is designed to ensure that all residents have reasonable access to medically necessary hospital and physician services, on a prepaid basis. Instead of having a single national plan, we have a national program that is composed of 13 interlocking provincial and territorial health insurance plans, all of which share certain common features and basic standards of coverage. Framed by the Canada Health Act, the principles governing our health care system are symbols of the underlying Canadian values of equity and solidarity.[/quote'] Everything you always wanted to know about the Canada Health Act* * Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gogo Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 An Unreasonable Man has a POV, but that's the point. The filmmaker tells an interesting story about democracy in America. The DVD extras are almost as long as the film itself, but they're worth the time.I still have not seen An Unreasonable Man, and I feel quite guilty about that. During my teenage years, Henriette was very sweet to me during my hanging-around-smoky-comedy-club days, and even though I haven't spoken to her in years, I'm so happy that she's still working on projects that are meaningful to her. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 During my teenage years, Henriette was very sweet to me during my hanging-around-smoky-comedy-club days, and even though I haven't spoken to her in years, I'm so happy that she's still working on projects that are meaningful to her.Wow, cool! That movie really got me thinking and it helped me understand US politics a little bit better. Highly recommended! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 BTW, as a Canadian, I know it's not my place to say what's wrong or right in America. I tried to stay out of this thread, but I'm super passionate about universal health care, etc., so I get sucked-in easily. Also, I find this topic endlessly fascinating, so please forgive my intrusion. I know that it's one thing to look on from the sidelines and quite another to live it on a daily basis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 judy, did you have private healthcare prior to the universal? if so, would you say that there were any differences, positive or negative, in the medical attention you received? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I've been covered under the public system all my life, so that's all I know. Until 1967, Canada's system was similar to the US. (Check out the CBC archives if you're really bored.) I think most Canadians really do value "equality and solidarity" in the same way that Americans value freedom and democracy (and capitalism, of course), so things would have to get really bad before we would be willing to embrace a largely private, for-profit system again. Our current system is relatively affordable because the single payer model is pretty efficient. I've never had a problem getting the care that I need when I need it (and I've never known anyone who has), although you do hear stories about long waits for fancy diagnostics and some procedures, blah, blah... I don't know, maybe I've just been lucky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedling Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Wait times for Canadians needing surgery hit an all time high of more than 18 weeks in 2007Release Date: October 15, 2007- CALGARY, AB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 It may independent in terms of funding, but it's libertarian in terms of philosophy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Yup. The Fraser Institute is a moderate libertarian think tank based in Canada. Though it contains some socially conservative and neo-conservative elements' date=' it is mostly libertarian. Its mandate is to advocate for freedom and competitive markets as possible solutions to public policy problems. Because of its libertarian principles, it approaches public policy solutions based on government spending, taxes, deficits, and regulation with skepticism.[/quote']As long as we're on the topic of think tanks, I'm more of a Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives gal, myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikol Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 So did they make their numbers up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 That's a good question, but the underlined portion certainly merited a response. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I don't think the Fraser Institute is making those numbers up, but they're probably being selective about what data they report (and how) and what they gloss over. The longest that I've ever had to wait to see a specialist is 3 weeks, but that's neither here nor there. If you really want to know what's broken and needs fixing, there's always the Romanow Report for a little light reading. Anyway, my original point wasn't that our system is perfect. I just wanted to point out that a publicly funded system is accountable to the public (voters) rather than corporate shareholders. Health care is almost always a big election issue in this country and if any govt. dares to mess with universal access or screws things up really badly, Canadians will smite them. I notice that the rest of the Canadians, Australians, and Europeans on this board have wisely stayed away from this topic, but please feel free to share your horror stories about the evils of universal health care if you have any. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Analogman Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 although you do hear stories about long waits for fancy diagnostics and some procedures, blah, blah... I don't know, maybe I've just been lucky. We do too - at least I do with the HMO deal. I say this after having spent many hours at the doctor's office since July. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheMaker Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I notice that the rest of the Canadians, Australians, and Europeans on this board have wisely stayed away from this topic, but please feel free to share your horror stories about the evils of universal health care if you have any. Oh, after my big rant a couple days ago, how could I possibly live with myself if I passed up this invitation? (This post is dedicated to Tweedling, who is beginning to stand revealed as my favourite kind of starred 'n' striped chat board troll; that is, one who steadfastly refuses to engage in proper discourse with those who would challenge his perceptions, but who nonetheless keeps a collection of weblinks at the ready which irrefutably prove the superiority of his country. Hope this finds y'well, Tweedles!) Anyhoo, like Dreamin', I've heard tell of a lot of horror stories about the evils of universal healthcare (the majority of them from American politicians who seem fairly allergic to change), but I've seldom encountered them personally. When my mom was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer in January 2001, she was referred by her G.P. to an oncologist and was sitting in his office within days. Her surgery was booked immediately and she was under the knife within a (1) week. She underwent chemo at Hotel Dieu in my ol' hometown of St. Catharines (completely inappropriate off-topic music notes: also the hometown of Neil Peart and Ron Sexsmith), where she received the finest care I can even conceive of a cancer patient receiving. I really can't stress enough that the doctors and nurses of Hotel Dieu displayed an almost heroic level of not only professionalism, but also compassion. From there, she underwent a series of radiation treatments over the course of a few months in Hamilton, about 45 minutes by car. This is perhaps notable if only because Ma wasn't yet close to being her old healthy self yet, and was therefore unable to make the 90-minute-plus round trip by herself. She was taxied by a volunteer service staffed mostly by cancer survivors, a service she was put in contact with through Hotel Dieu. Six years later, she's cancer-free, thanks for asking. I doubt very highly that even the pig-fucking-richest U.S. American could purchase finer healthcare! You may or may not have noticed a common thread running through the above paragraph: compassion. Like Dreamin' rightly observed, Canadians value such things as solidarity and empathy to such a degree that they can only be considered an important component of our national identity. Heal with medicine, comfort with kindness. Something like that, I suppose. I'm in relatively good health, so I have few stories of my own to share. As I said in my last essay-length post in this thread, I have a number of costly prescriptions, all of which have a bottomless number of refills. I'm a diabetic, but I keep a tight handle on things, so I can't really complain. I have to endure shitty eyesight and frustrating fluctuations in my blood sugar from time to time, but I greatly prefer that to, um, not being alive. Which makes me wonder about what my life would be like if I were an American. I also mentioned in my previous post that I earn a humble living doing freelance work, which of course means that I enjoy no benefits whatsoever. I'll clear maybe 33k this year (if I'm fucking lucky), and when I sit down and crunch the numbers, the first thing that occurs to me is that... I couldn't do this in the U.S. Literally. Could. Not. Have. This. Life. I'd have to sell my soul, buy a suit, and work some shit job that I despise in order to get by. And I'm obviously not a terribly big fan of that idea. I'm thankful for the coverage I'm afforded by the province of Ontario, and I'm thankful that I'm eligible for additional coverage beyond the Ontario Health Insurance Plan, which allows me to bank thousands of dollars each year that I'd otherwise have to spend on, um, surviving. Oh, and this one time when I was a teenager, I began to suffer crippling migraines. Now, my mind may be playing tricks on me, as this was a decade ago, but I don't recall having to wait for a CT scan. A few years later, my then-girlfriend needed an MRI to help with a diagnosis, and I don't really remember any waiting on her part, either. I tore my toe open back in '04 and needed ten stitches (right on the "seam," ouch! - and to make this relevant to VC, the gash opened up right in the middle of Wilco's set at the Mod Club that summer, ew, ew ,ew; I just let my sock soak it up 'til I got back to my friend's place), which I received within 90 minutes of arriving at the crowded emergency room. What the fuck am I trying to say? Search me. I guess I'm trying to exhort you, my American friends and neighbours, to start thinking with your hearts and your chequebooks in equal measure. You'd be amazed at the possibilities that begin to reveal themselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You'd be amazed at the possibilities that begin to reveal themselves. Amen. Great stuff, TheMaker. (P.S. I still disagree with you about Modern Times though ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I guess I'm trying to exhort you, my American friends and neighbours, to start thinking with your hearts and your chequebooks in equal measure. You'd be amazed at the possibilities that begin to reveal themselves. I don't see how wanting the best possible heathcare I can get for my family as a first priority and working my ass off in what you would call a shitty, souless, saurian (sorry, had to add it) suit job to do so, is doing anything but thinking w/ my heart. You've made a choice to prioritize fulfillment in your career choice/lifestyle and it's great you have a medical infrastructure to support that...I guess I don't find it any less great that I can do the same w/out it (and, honestly, I can't remember the last time I wore a suit). It's great to hear two personal accounts on how a universal system has worked well...granted, if somebody could actually refute the accuracy of the stats posted earlier versus chiding the source and shrugging them off as 'perceptions', i'd feel a lot better. Again, i'm not a flag-waving, NRA card carrying starred 'n' striped chat board troll...i'm just a cautious realist and concerned husband, parent, son and brother who wants the best for my family, first and foremost. If, under a plan like the one proposed by Clinton, i'm allowed to continue to do so and we can provide suitable care to those who can't w/out completely fucking up our budget...sign me up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamin' Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I hear ya, Kevin. There's nothing wrong with being prudent. Inadequate funding is partly to blame for our waitlists. If the Canadian govt. allocated as much funding to health care as the US does, Canadians would probably have the best health care in the world. Americans pay more for the same health services than citizens in other countries do. The distribution of compensation is wider in the US than in other industrialized countries, and you have a super complex, fragmented, multipayer system that allocates greater market power to the supply side of the health system than to the demand side. In Canada, we have greater market power on the demand side, and our single-payer system is also more efficient, so the administrative costs are lower. I think radical change would be needed before universal health care could ever be viable in the US. Unfortunately, I just don't see how the vampire HMOs (with friends in high places) and others who are eager to cash in will ever let that happen. ... Which brings me back to the evils of the two party system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 absolutely, judy. our entire political system has become so entrenched in special interest groups and big business, no candidate (republican, democrat or independent) can promise any overnight successes relative to ANY of the issues...which is why I find myself not jumping right in and blindly following a particular party* as i have done so many election years prior. *Democrat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedling Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thank you, TheMaker, for the dedicated post. I have taken note of your Canadian love and compassion and I must say I have learned a lot! I doubt very highly that even the pig-fucking-richest U.S. American could purchase finer healthcare!I do believe your quote about "selling your soul and wearing a suit" sums it up for me. I decided at an early age to pick a career and I made sure that career/job/employment would offer benefits. (HC, vision, dental) In the long run it has not been easy but I have been able to provide a living and HC for my family. Contrarily, I have friends who have chosen to stay in "higher education" and dedicate their time to "hanging out" and volunteer work with small jobs on the side. When they chose this lifestyle, I believe they have placed HC low on their list of priorities. "Volunteering" is honorable but it doesn't offer health benefits. (I may be wrong) This brings me to mention: Things I think are RIGHT with this country.-A person can do and be just about anything he would like to AND suffer the consequences, as well! Now to address some of the misconceptions you have developed concerning me. I do not keep a collection of web links at the ready. I am not a chat board troll and I have a checkbook. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheMaker Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Right the fuck on, bro. You hate your job, you believe that each man is an island, and you like to spell cheque like only one country does. Anyway, I'm done talking to you for just about ever. What's the point in trying to get blood from a stone? Enjoy the downward spiral. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 well that's dissapointing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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