so long, Mr. Torre

[MrRain422]

As a DH? Instead of Giambi? Do you want your team to lose?

 

His last 4 seasons, his OPS+ was:

107 (barely above league average)

108 (same)

85 (15% below league average)

96 (barely below league average)

 

How is that a useful DH? For most teams, the DH is one of the most dangerous hitters. You really want a guy who is hovering right around league average?

 

And just to rub it in further, Giambi's OPS+ for those 4 seasons:

148

90 (strangely bad year for Giambi)

161 (!!!!)

108

 

This year, Giambi OPS+'ed 108 in about half a season, with Damon and Matsui DHing most of the rest of the games, so it was a disappointing year from Giambi, but I really can't imagine that Williams would have been any better.

[a.miller]

I still don't understand how this makes the Yankees look bad.

Because it comes off like they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Yep.

[boywiththorninside]

Bernie has never been a bench player and the feeling was the without being an everyday player he simply wouldn't be effective. They offered him the opportunity to prove he could do it, but he refused to come down. Torre he even said publicly he should come down because he wouldn't answer calls. During spring training it wasn't even clear they'd have a roster spot for another part time bat, as it turned out holes opened up that he'd have slotted nicely into but at that point the ship had sailed.

 

Again, my main problem is how this matter was largely handled through the press. If there's not that spot for him, tell him so privately. Don't let it be known that if he wants to audition, he can. Asking a guy like Bernie, publicly, to audition is insulting. It's enough of a blow to the guy that the team probably doesn't want him back. To tell the press that he's welcome to try out for the team is salt in the wound. This always rubbed me the wrong way. Bernie won a lot of games and hit a lot of post-season home-runs for that team.

[Spawn's dad]

That's some pretty serious history revision. It didn't go down like that at all. Bernie publicly said he wanted to play and never showed up. He wanted a contract.

[boywiththorninside]

That's some pretty serious history revision. It didn't go down like that at all. Bernie publicly said he wanted to play and never showed up. He wanted a contract.

 

Bernie - Sports Illustrated

 

Odd man out?

Williams gets camp invite but no guaranteed deal

Posted: Wednesday January 31, 2007

 

Bernie Williams' great Yankees career just might end with a soap opera he didn't bargain for.

 

SI.com has learned that the Yankees have made Williams a standing offer to come to spring training as a non-guaranteed, nonroster invite. While this wasn't anything close to what he was hoping or looking for, all indications are that he is considering the proposal.

 

Williams still could decide to retire, too. But the third option, which is to sign a better deal with another team, seems to be out of the question.

 

Though Williams could have gotten a guaranteed contract elsewhere, people close to him say he considers himself a Yankee and only a Yankee.

 

But right now he's still grappling with hurt feelings. He sits at home in Westchester County, his pride stinging. He recently told the Westchester Journal News, "When you give a large chunk of your life to a team, it is hard. It's not like I'm a journeyman.''

 

Williams knows that if he decides to return for what amounts to a tryout, through no fault of his own he becomes the story of spring, superseding returning hero Andy Pettitte, at least until Roger Clemens decides whether to rejoin them. But if Williams retires, he might have regrets about leaving too soon. He was productive last year (.281, 12, 61), maybe more so than the Yankees remember.

 

New York's current roster plan includes 12 pitchers, three first basemen (generously counting Jason Giambi as a first baseman) and no guaranteed deal for Williams. But don't count him out if he comes to camp. Manager Joe Torre always has been a Williams fan, and while Torre may have slightly diminishing clout, his voice should still count more than the detractors, who wonder how much Williams can contribute in a limited role.

 

The potential soap opera might have been avoided if only the Yankees continued to give Giambi time at first base. But alas, they have seen the light there. As a first baseman, Giambi makes a terrific DH.

 

The soap opera might also have been avoided had the Yankees felt that young Andy Phillips was ready to play first base full time. But Phillips had a disappointing first full season offensively, thus prompting the Yankees to sign Doug Mientkiewicz to platoon with him at first.

 

The Yankees' belief is that Mientkiewicz gives them better flexibility and glovework, and he probably does do that. But Mientkiewicz was terrible offensively as a Met, mediocre as a Royal and definitely is declining faster than Williams.

 

Mientkiewicz also is recalled as Boston's Ball Hog, who thought he had a right to the 2004 World Series ball simply because he hoarded it afterward. He also drew criticism for being overly talkative with the Mets, considering that he was the worst everyday player on the team. He ripped them as losers on his way to Kansas City (the Mets, incidentally, were on their way to the NLCS).

 

In what was a pretty good winter, one in which the Yankees improved their future and clubhouse, Mientkiewicz is their one hard-to-understand signing. It's difficult to believe Mientkiewicz is the one who stands in the way of Williams staying a Yankee. But for now, he is.

 

In any case, Mientkiewicz has a guaranteed contract, so the Yankees will feel obligated to carry him for half a year, at least. But Williams' presence in spring could force the Yankees either to drop Phillips or, more likely, go with only 11 pitchers.

 

Williams is great in the clubhouse and still pretty good on the field. If Williams takes the Yankees up on their offer, maybe they'd be too embarrassed to cut him. Or maybe they'd just start to remember what Williams still brings something to the team.

[Spawn's dad]

You're kind of making my point for me. It was Bernie who said publicly he had to try out, not the Yankees. It could have been hush-hush. Seems the only thing you'd have been happy with is if they offered a spot which he didn't deserve.

 

And Bernie wasn't getting a guaranteed contract anywhere.

[boywiththorninside]

You're kind of making my point for me. It was Bernie who said publicly he had to try out, not the Yankees. It could have been hush-hush. Seems the only thing you'd have been happy with is if they offered a spot which he didn't deserve.

 

And Bernie wasn't getting a guaranteed contract anywhere.

 

Bernie was asked how he felt about the contract situation, he responded.

 

I disagree that Bernie couldn't have gotten a contract somewhere. Perhaps he couldn't get the cash he wanted, but he could have gotten a deal.

 

I view the Bernie thing completely differently than you. That's fine. I can live with that. I, as well as some other Yankee fans I know, feel Bernie got a raw deal. It's just our opinion, but thanks for letting me know how dumb of an opinion it is. After all, what are message boards for?

[Spawn's dad]

you want some cheese with that whine? you expressed your opinion I expressed mine.

[MrRain422]

Bernie would have gotten a lot of offers to be a bench coach, maybe. To be a player...eh, maybe some, for close to league minimum money. And not a starting job, other than maybe in Kansas City or something.

[boywiththorninside]

Bernie would have gotten a lot of offers to be a bench coach, maybe. To be a player...eh, maybe some, for close to league minimum money. And not a starting job, other than maybe in Kansas City or something.

 

I accept that. I just can't believe that given some of the guys who take up major league roster spots, Bernie couldn't have caught on - and, yes, contributed even - somewhere. I would have liked it to have been with the Yankees.

 

The NY Daily News ran an article two Sundays ago that Bernie's thinking about coming back next year and that teams have shown interest. I bet he can still play. You guys disagree. That's cool. At his age, you guys might be right.

[boywiththorninside]

you want some cheese with that whine? you expressed your opinion I expressed mine.

 

I'm not trying to whine and I'm sorry if things got pissy. I just have a complete different recollection/feeling for how things went down. I think when someone has the resume Bernie had, a tryout offer is a slap in the face. I can see someone having the opposite view - as you do. Roster spots have to be earned. You think Bernie had to earn that spot. I think, based on past performance, he already earned it and that a tryout offer was insulting.

 

Agree to disagree. No hard feelings on my side.

 

Anyway, this thread is about Torre. I apologize that it got sidetracked.

 

Back to Joe: I miss him already.

[Spawn's dad]

The Torre talk is kind of boring now (except for the nose jokes). We just have to sit around and wait for the revised Yankee offer. So back to Bernie.... the yankees felt, as did most people, that they had better people in the places he fit (outfield and DH). At best he was a bench player, and as I said above he had never demonstrated an ability for hitting off the bench. If he had shown he could still hit they likely would have lost one the extra first basemen to bring Bernie along. And given that Philips and Mientkiewic (I had to look up that spelling) played that probably would have been a mistake. Seems the only alternative was just to say we don't want you, and that seems like a bigger slap to me. Anyway. Yeah, that's probably enough on that.

[boywiththorninside]

The Torre talk is kind of boring now (except for the nose jokes). We just have to sit around and wait for the revised Yankee offer.

 

...or start talking non stop about A-Rod's contract. The NY papers will be going all out covering that soon.

 

Yeah, I could also see a revised Torre offer. I'm not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be shocked.

 

Gary, are you a Yankees fan? I see "the Jersey," so I'm guessing Mets, Yankees, or Phillies.

[Spawn's dad]

 

Yankees fan. I'm offended you even asked.

[jenbobblehead]

not everyone is ashamed at being a yankees fan.

[bjorn_skurj]

I don't mean to kick a guy when he is down - because I actually like Joe Torre - but his managing record before he got to the Yankees was not so good. Granted he managed some bad teams, but in parts of 15 seasons he had one first place finish and, if I did the math right, a .470 winning percentage.

A robot with the jarred brains of Casey Stengel, Earl Weaver and John McGraw couldn't have helped the Mets back then.

[Spawn's dad]

that would make a good cartoon.

[bjorn_skurj]

We need agents, dude.

[Spawn's dad]

a friend of mine runs a popular NY cycling blog and created a comic with his co-editor. It's gotta a pretty good amount of exposure and all started from two guys just acting like assholes brainstroming.

[boywiththorninside]

 

Yankees fan. I'm offended you even asked.

 

I'm sorry I had to ask about your team. I thought maybe you weren't a Yankees fan and that's where our different perpectives were coming from. This doesn't mean that I'm right, but several people I spoke to last night - all Yankee fans - kept repeating the same thing: what the Yankees did to Torre was a carbon copy of what they did to Bernie. Meaning, they made an offer they believed wouldn't be accepted. This then allowed them to cut ties, as they really wanted to do. Further, it allowed them to put the onus on the person who rejected the offer. Quite conspiratorial, I admit, but still I came to believe this was the official Yankee fan line of thinking. I was wrong. Anyway, again, sorry for any beef between us. These are tough times for Yankee fans. 7 years without a title. We need to do a better job of sticking together.

[Spawn's dad]

7 years without a title.

 

 

you're one of those fans, huh? excuse me while I distance myself from you.

[myboyblue]

Let's all hop on the Indians bandwagon. 23rd highest payroll, lots' o' sluggers, what's not to like?

[jenbobblehead]

well, there was that whole thing with president of Grady Sizemore's fan club being killed by her wacko boyfriend who then killed himself.

[boywiththorninside]

you're one of those fans, huh? excuse me while I distance myself from you.

 

Wow. Yankees fans or not, we were not destined to get along.

 

Gary, my tongue was firmly in cheek.

 

My earliest baseball memory is Righetti's no hitter. I'm old enough to remember most of the 1980's and the early 90's. Bobby Meacham, Dale Berra, Ed Whitson, Stump Mitchell, Tartabull, etc., etc. I watched those teams. Almost every weekend they were home, I used to hop on the 4 and go to a largely empty Stadium. My father and grandfather have explained the 1965 - 1975 gap. I know how good I've had it. I'd like to think I'm not one of those fans.

[JerseyMike]

It is sad to see Joe go, but I think it was time for a change.

 

Eventhough this past year may have been his finest in pinstripes, Torre has made some bad coaching blunders in the past few years, especially in the playoffs:

 

1) Bringing the infield in for Luis Gonzalez with the bases jammed and one out in the '01 WS. He should have bought the corners in, but kept the middle infield back for the DP, especially the way Rivera pitches.

2)Bringing in Jeff Weaver to pitch in a tie game against the Marlins in '03. he promptly gave up a gopher ball, as he did all season long.

3) Not attempting to bunt in the early stages of the infamous "Bloody Sock" game in the '04 ALCS. They didn't even test Shillings "injured" ankle on a slick field.

4) Dropping A-Rod to the 8th spot in game 4 of the '06 Division Series and shuffling the line-up, and benching Melky Cabrera, who had been a spark plug for that team all year long.

 

Anyway, he had a good run. i hope the Yanks hire Girardi.

 

My earliest baseball memory is Righetti's no hitter. I'm old enough to remember most of the 1980's and the early 90's. Bobby Meacham, Dale Berra, Ed Whitson, Stump Mitchell, Tartabull, etc., etc. I watched those teams. Almost every weekend they were home, I used to hop on the 4 and go to a largely empty Stadium. My father and grandfather have explained the 1965 - 1975 gap. I know how good I've had it. I'd like to think I'm not one of those fans.

 

Andre Robertson

Paul Zuvella

Tim Foli

Wayne Tolleson

Claudell Washington

Juan Bonilla

Luis Aguyo

Alvaro Espinoza

KEVIN MAAS

Mel Hall

Ron Hassey

Matt Nokes

Pat Kelly

Steve Kemp

Vic Mata

Dan Pasqua

Juan Espino

Mike Fishlin

Gary Ward

KEN PHELPS

"BYE BYE" BALBONI

Mike Blowers

"Bam Bam" Muelens

Oscar Azocar

 

Just a few of the Yankee greats of my youth!