the carlos Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I haven't really been keeping but did Sigur Ros go on welfare or something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sweet Papa Crimbo Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I haven't really been keeping but did Sigur Ros go on welfare or something? Never woulda happened if they had sold one of their boring fucking songs to Toyota for a commercial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I haven't really been keeping but did Sigur Ros go on welfare or something?One of the guys in the band actually fed himself to a starving family in Rwanda. His name was jc4prez. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 1. But I have been there...in our first several years of marriage i was working a horribly paying ad sales job and my wife was a teacher's assistant. due to downturn in business, my sales job became even worse. we racked up considerable credit card debt to pay for everything from rent to groceries. i do have compassion for those type of scenarios, but how much of said debt is that versus a simple case of people living beyond their means? i don't know for sure, but if you have some #'s to provide, that'd be great. i worked my ass off finding new employment and retooling our life every where possible to get out of it...and, like you, we did. 2. Anybody having to work more than 1 job isn't anything to scoff at, but to have a meaningful conversation and speak truthfuly about this subject, you have to look at things in totaility using legitimate #'s, right? I don't think anybody in the US Government should be patting or puffing, but I also don't think people should be talking about problems without really understanding the actual magnitude and real life figures. 3. Bullshit. I'm not brushing anything aside and have said so in several posts...i'm quantifying/qualifying the problem. What is a living wage? Per stats i've posted up with, the average is significantly more than the mnimum you are hanging your hat on...is thst still nto enough? What is? 4. How are those #'s out of context? They are census #'s and when posted in rebuttal to your 'minimum/living wage' request, they make perfect sense. Am I missing something? Is there a seperate chart for the working poor? in earlier discussion, you painted yourself to be a very scientific minded individual...basing your stances and decisions on proven fact and figures. when i present some real life data, you don't seem to want to discuss this on thsoe points. when did i ever say i'm pro-life?! i'm pro-choice w/ my personal choice being that abortion should be an absolute last resort. that said, 'kids happen' is a horrible argument against being responsible. sure they do, but they all aren't due to broken condoms or otherwise. you are also leaving out the option, as hard as it may be, to put a child up for adoption. hard decison? yes. an option though? yes. I don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
the carlos Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sweet Papa Crimbo Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Because they are just numbers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 and, actually, the correct answer is: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sweet Papa Crimbo Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stooka Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 that's the one Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 'just numbers'? those numbers represent what real people are earning and they aren't designed to to say what's a liveable wage or not... Exactly, but the discussion we are/were having centered around livable wage vs. minimum wage Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Exactly, but the discussion we are/were having centered around livable wage vs. minimum wage Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Has anyone said that if we do raise the minimum wage ever more, that will simply give companies more incentive to take their jobs over seas or give them to immigrants? Because, if so, I'd like to take that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jc4prez Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Has anyone said that if we do raise the minimum wage ever more, that will simply give companies more incentive to take their jobs over seas or give them to immigrants? Because, if so, I'd like to take that one. Absolutely. I was talking about this with a friend the other day. If you want to be culturally relative its okay for companies do this since the societies they are taking the bussiness to are okay with it. I think its our duty as a nation to refuse these products to be brought into the United States. If the production of a product doesn't meet the standards we hold for our own people it shouldn't be brought in here. Especially if it was a corporation based out of the Untied States taking advantage of unfair laws and economic systems in other nations. Every product imported into the United States (espeically on a large scale) should be traced to its production (which should have to meet certain standards). This would discourage companies from taking their bussiness to countries where they pay works less then 10 cents an hour. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Absolutely. I was talking about this with a friend the other day. If you want to be culturally relative its okay for companies do this since the societies they are taking the bussiness to are okay with it. I think its our duty as a nation to refuse these products to be brought into the United States. If the production of a product doesn't meet the standards we hold for our own people it shouldn't be brought in here. Especially if it was a corporation based out of the Untied States taking advantage of unfair laws and economic systems in other nations. Every product imported into the United States (espeically on a large scale) should be traced to its production (which should have to meet certain standards). This would discourage companies from taking their bussiness to countries where they pay works less then 10 cents an hour.It's a fallacy to apply U.S. job standards to jobs outside the United States. What's the median income in the countries where U.S. companies are paying local workers "less than 10 cents an hour"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jc4prez Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 It's a fallacy to apply U.S. job standards to jobs outside the United States. What's the median income in the countries where U.S. companies are paying local workers "less than 10 cents an hour"? Irrelevant for two reasons. 1. Even if they are paying these people median wages the companies are seeing extremely high returns on these products. This justifys employee raises. 2. Median wages in these countries won't break the cycle of poverty. Also most of the time these corporations are formed in the united states; they out source in order to escape minimum wage and other employment requirements. Then turn around and sell the products in our market at inflated values. Instead of taking care of one of their most important stake holders (their employees) they are keeping the benefits in their pockets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Also most of the time these corporations are formed in the united states; they out source in order to escape minimum wage and other employment requirements. Then turn around and sell the products in our market at inflated values. Instead of taking care of one of their most important stake holders (their employees) they are keeping the benefits in their pockets. I gotta get popcorn for this one. Please explain offshore manufacturing to me sensei. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jc4prez Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I gotta get popcorn for this one. Please explain offshore manufacturing to me sensei. if that isn't the reasoning; you tell me why then? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 you neglect to consider the cost of real estate, energy (one of the most expensive portions of manufacturing), and raw materials all of which are cheaper is less developed nations. why? well because we all want to be paid like, well, ball players. In a country where the guy working the back end of a print frame is happy being able to buy some goat meat for his family, wages stay at a rate that is proportional to the the value of the goods being made. the issue of minimum wage doesn't really cover it though, as, well fuck, they don't get paid minimum wage. people flipping burgers in high school get minimum wage. guys in manfacturing plants get a shit load more than that, plus time and a half, and assuming it's a union shop some pretty fucking stellar health benefits. Suddenly the 1 yard and a quarter of fabric for that tier top curtain is a bit of whack for what it should really cost a family of four with a stay at home mom. It's nice to pretend that all these issues are linear and it's all the fault of the richest guy, but christ what a load of hot air blew through this fucking place today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 aren't you the guy who quit the board? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 aren't you the guy who quit the board? Yes, I am, now go back answer my question(s). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 yeah, I'll get right on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 yeah, I'll get right on that. I knew I could count on you, Gary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 were somebody beating a dead horse on the side of the road, i'd slow down and look. the whack-a-mole style of nonsense going on here is staggering and pretty entertaining for a message board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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