Roger Clemens

[MrRain422]

The Mitchell Report and the fall out from it does not suggest that every player was using banned substances/cheating.

 

I don't remember that part. The report only uses two real sources -- Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee, with some corroboration from a couple former players.. Unless those are the only two guys who were distributing steroids in baseball, then anyone who got them anywhere else is off the hook.

[Lammycat]

I don't remember that part. The report only uses two real sources -- Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee, with some corroboration from a couple former players.. Unless those are the only two guys who were distributing steroids in baseball, then anyone who got them anywhere else is off the hook.

That's kind of my point. Stating that everyone/most players were using is mere speculation. I don't think even Canseco claims this.

[Good Old Neon]

I haven

[Lammycat]

I haven

[Good Old Neon]

Yes, if he's proven to have lied under oath. He was under oath for over 4 hours yesterday and denied all the accusations against him made by a trainer who says he personally injected him.

 

His teammate and close friend, Andy Pettite, swore in a testimony that Clemens told him he used HGH. Clemens' wife also testified, in writing, that she was injected with HGH. Both Pettite and and Clemens' wife said it was MacNamee who injected them. The same person whom Clemens denies injected him.

 

Ouch

[Lammycat]

Ouch

[Good Old Neon]

I don't necessarily even advocate an asterisk for the players caught and proven guilty of using PEDs (HOF?) but it needs to be acknowledged that they went about attaining milestones by cheating.

 

 

Yeah, I was only being half serious. Though, I do think that if the league is genuinely concerned about steroid use, etc, they should give serious consideration to removing steroid abusing/using players from the Hall of Fame altogether.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

And if they are they're getting a terrible return on their investment.

 

 

Hell...talk about a terrible return on investment. Arlington was apparently ground zero for juicing and we haven' won SHIT. Ever.

[Sir Stewart]

we haven' won SHIT. Ever.

From everyone north of Arlington:

 

[John Smith]

The Mitchell Report and the fall out from it does not suggest that every player was using banned substances/cheating. There's no need to check every player from the last ten years. There is reason to check the players who have been accused with varying amounts of evidence to have broken the rules, though.

 

The Mitchell report deals with the Mets and Yankee's (to a lesser extent) and with the Giants and a few other miscellaneous cases. Heck it does not address the possibility that even within organizations examined, like the Mets, that there might be other possible suppliers for players wanting to be more secretive. It does not take into account the unknowns (annd it really can't), like what about players who go offshore and get supplied off shore? I would say just from the slim slice of the major leagues it does opened up that Yes, there is a possibility that more than 50% of the players are using.

[MrRain422]

That's kind of my point. Stating that everyone/most players were using is mere speculation. I don't think even Canseco claims this.

 

Actually Canseco did say that more than half of MLB players were juicing at one point. I don't think he has speculated on the percentage juicing today.

 

For what it's worth, Ken Caminiti estimated that 85% of Major Leaguers were on 'roids. That's probably an overestimation, but it shows that in the very least it had to have been pretty common.

[a.miller]

Actually Canseco did say that more than half of MLB players were juicing at one point. I don't think he has speculated on the percentage juicing today.

 

For what it's worth, Ken Caminiti estimated that 85% of Major Leaguers were on 'roids. That's probably an overestimation, but it shows that in the very least it had to have been pretty common.

In all of the talk of using, the part that makes me feel the worst is that the teams were seemingly condoning this practice, even promoting it. For some reason I find more fault with teams that did that than with players using because they felt they had to. Maybe that's just a cop-out for players who were using....

[Lammycat]

The Mitchell report deals with the Mets and Yankee's (to a lesser extent) and with the Giants and a few other miscellaneous cases. Heck it does not address the possibility that even within organizations examined, like the Mets, that there might be other possible suppliers for players wanting to be more secretive. It does not take into account the unknowns (annd it really can't), like what about players who go offshore and get supplied off shore? I would say just from the slim slice of the major leagues it does opened up that Yes, there is a possibility that more than 50% of the players are using.

I understand the report is limited, even in it's extensiveness. Not every player on every team, or even half the players on every team, that were thoroughly investigated were revealed/suspected of using, though.

 

I don't mind people not caring whether a player used or not, but by stating that most were using so it has to be swept under the rug doesn't gibe with me. It's more likely than not that most players did not cheat.

 

Regardless, the ones caught need to sack up and deal with any punishments.

[Lammycat]

Actually Canseco did say that more than half of MLB players were juicing at one point. I don't think he has speculated on the percentage juicing today.

 

For what it's worth, Ken Caminiti estimated that 85% of Major Leaguers were on 'roids. That's probably an overestimation, but it shows that in the very least it had to have been pretty common.

I have no doubt that many players used. But not all and not most. And for this there needs to be a distinction made (if evidence is presented) between those who chose to cheat and those who chose to play fairly.

 

In all of the talk of using, the part that makes me feel the worst is that the teams were seemingly condoning this practice, even promoting it. For some reason I find more fault with teams that did that than with players using because they felt they had to. Maybe that's just a cop-out for players who were using....

This is a good point, too. The Commissioner, his people, the owners, managers, etc. are (mostly) all culpable. It still does not excuse a player opting to use PEDs, though.

[ZenLunatic]

This is what Clemens needs: The Chewbacca Defense by Johnnie Cochran

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EqjBA82dM8

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

From everyone north of Arlington:

 

 

 

Werd

[Lammycat]

I wonder if this will be enough for Bonds apologists:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3246542

[bobbob1313]

 

"I wonder if this will be enough for Ruth apologists:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line"

 

I just don't understand why Bonds is crucified for doing something that players have been doing since the beginning of the game itself (Trying to gain a competitive edge by any means necessary, legal or illegal). It just doesn't bother me that much. It really doesn't bother me nearly as much as everyone tells me it should. Nobody hates players from the 40's-80's for the widespread use of greenies. Nobody brings up that Ruth wasn't playing against black or hispanic ball players (not his fault, but still, worthy of note). Nobody brings up that, if Bonds illegally (under the eyes of the law) used steroids, Ruth almost certainly illegally drank alcohol during prohibition years.

 

Any argument you want to make for why Bonds is worse than anyone in the history of the game, there are examples of others. He broke the law? Ty Cobb stabbed a dude. He cheated? Loads (LOADS) of players used greenies and steroids.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I wonder if this will be enough for Bonds apologists:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3246542

 

 

Nice...

 

We can't find Osama Bin Laden or Jimmy Hoffa's body, but we fucking know Barry Bonds took roids.

 

 

Nice...

[Lammycat]

We've done this dance too many times, bobbob. I know where you stand and that's cool, but there are other takes on it that are valid. I believe there are degrees of "cheating" that are worse than others.

 

Because lots of players have used banned substances and not gotten caught doesn't exempt Bonds from what he has done (nor any of the other players with evidence against them). I've never said Bonds is "worse" than those players. He accomplished feats on the field that no other player accomplished and the validity of the accomplishments are questionable, regardless of what other players may or may not have done.

 

Yes, he's held to greater scrutiny because of his accomplishments. He helped put himself in this situation because of his decisions, too.

 

Nice...

 

We can't find Osama Bin Laden or Jimmy Hoffa's body, but we fucking know Barry Bonds took roids.

 

 

Nice...

What's the correlation here? They're totally exclusive of one another.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

We've done this dance too many times, bobbob. I know where you stand and that's cool, but there are other takes on it that are valid. I believe there are degrees of "cheating" that are worse than others.

 

Because lots of players have used banned substances and not gotten caught doesn't exempt Bonds from what he has done (nor any of the other players with evidence against them). I've never said Bonds is "worse" than those players. He accomplished feats on the field that no other player accomplished and the validity of the accomplishments are questionable, regardless of what other players may or may not have done.

 

Yes, he's held to greater scrutiny because of his accomplishments. He helped put himself in this situation because of his decisions, too.

 

 

What's the correlation here? They're totally exclusive of one another.

 

Federal investigators...House Subcommittees...

 

I'm sorry, but whether atheletes engaged in an age old practice of cheating or not is simply not important enough to warrant the time and money being spent by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to investigate.

[Lammycat]

Federal investigators...House Subcommittees...

 

I'm sorry, but whether atheletes engaged in an age old practice of cheating or not is simply not important enough to warrant the time and money being spent by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to investigate.

I disagree that using HGH/Steroids/PEDs is an "age old practice" but agree that government money and time being spent on it is excessive.

[bobbob1313]

It is an extension of age old practices. If HGH were widely available to players in the 60's, you can be damn sure they would've been taking them.

 

I just don't see how there can be sliding levels of wrongness when it comes to cheating. It's all wrong, or none of it is wrong.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3246675

 

SAN FRANCISCO -- Federal prosecutors mistakenly filed court papers Thursday that incorrectly stated that Barry Bonds failed a steroids test in November of 2001 -- one month after breaking the single-season home run mark.

 

U.S. attorney spokesman Josh Eaton now says that the reference in Thursday's government court filing regarding Bonds testing positive was actually referring to a November 2000 test that was previously disclosed in the indictment of Bonds and had already been reported.

[Lammycat]

It is an extension of age old practices. If HGH were widely available to players in the 60's, you can be damn sure they would've been taking them.

 

I just don't see how there can be sliding levels of wrongness when it comes to cheating. It's all wrong, or none of it is wrong.

Cheating has always gone on in baseball, yes. I don't associate betting on the game while a manager/player (cheating) or throwing a series (cheating)_to be equal to doctoring a ball (cheating) or corking a bat (cheating). Like all crimes are technically "crimes," different crimes run the gamut of seriousness and consequences for getting caught.

 

Additionally, the old adage: "it's only cheating if you get caught" seems to fit the bill here, too.

[bobbob1313]

He was only caught because, instead of working on things like, you know, the fucking war, congress decided finding out if people cheating while playing games was the most important thing going.