Some good news about Americans and religion

[Good Old Neon]

So, the difference is basically that you are right and he is not? Something tells me that the campus yeller would make the same argument. And how do you have science backing you up? Science is the study of the natural world, whereas religion involves the supernatural.

 

And based on all the available scientific data, the supernatural, as it is usually defined, does not exist. If at some point in the future, a god chooses to reveal him or her or itself, or through some peer reviewed, scientific breakthrough, inconvertible proof of gods existence is found, and then we are able to determine that this god really does keep a naughty and nice list, and does send people to heaven or hell based on their actions, I will reevaluate my position as an atheist, but, until such time, I

[JUDE]

... I will reevaluate my position as an atheist, but, until such time, I

[ikol]

And based on all the available scientific data, the supernatural, as it is usually defined, does not exist.

 

At least not within the realm of the natural.

[quarter23cd]

An interesting thread and it kind of hits home for me right now. My sis in law has stirred up a rather interesting situation in my household lately by suddenly, out of nowhere, becoming a very active Catholic after years or agnosticism/atheism. We're all a bunch of lapsed Catholics in my family, to some degree. We all grew up with it, and I'm certainly the most "lapsed" of the bunch--I went through CCD and confirmation, too, but only to appease relatives who would otherwise have a coronary if I didn't. It certainly wasn't a genuine profession of faith on my part.

 

But her unexpected conversion has stirred up some rumblings in my household, as well. She is now teaching a CCD course and is hurt that we have not yet enrolled our children, who to this point have had little to no religious teaching and are getting to be of the age to start asking some pretty big questions. My wife, while still every bit as "lapsed" as I am, has begun questioning how to go about introducing our kids to the idea of religion. (the "we should probably give them a foundation in something, even if they choose otherwise later" argument)

 

I'm dragging my feet because, in my mind, there is a vast chasm between "introducing the idea" and "indoctrinating through weekly classes and mass attendence". I'm unabashedly agnostic and won't pretend to be otherwise. I'm as much a searcher of meaning as anybody else, but have never understood why "I don't know" isn't an acceptable answer when it comes to questions of belief. I've never understood people who claim to know. That kind of assuredness about something so ineffable is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Still, I'm pretty much a live and let live guy.

 

My open-mindedness has its limits, however, and this situation has helped me realize that I've built up quite a bias against Catholicism/Christianity (in other words, my own tolerance kind of sucks ) and this is a real test for me. Its a road I've already been down and, frankly, was happy to leave behind. And I guess I resent the idea of it being somehow the "default" religious position from which to start educating my children. (because I guess it is somehow "wrong" to raise an agnostic/atheist kid)

 

I'm interested to see that there are a number of Buddhists on the board. Meditation practice is an idea I first encountered via psychotherapy for panic attacks, of all places, several years ago and it resonated for me and I began tracing backwards to buddhist traditions. I don't actually call myself a Buddhist, although I don't know why not since, as I understand it (and please correct me if I am wrong), in its most basic form seems to be more of a practice than a religion.(which is a pretty big distinction) Its an idea I'd like to explore more, although I think it still retains enough of an unknown quality in our culture that even my wife raises an eyebrow a little bit at my interest. But, hey, if we're going to agree to take our kids to church once in a while, why not teach them to meditate, as well?

 

Its either going to make for really great, open-minded, well-adjusted kids or else its gonna fuck 'em up in the head just as badly as I am!

[EL the Famous]

As I

[mountain bed]

An interesting thread and it kind of hits home for me right now. My sis in law has stirred up a rather interesting situation in my household lately by suddenly, out of nowhere, becoming a very active Catholic after years or agnosticism/atheism. We're all a bunch of lapsed Catholics in my family, to some degree. We all grew up with it, and I'm certainly the most "lapsed" of the bunch--I went through CCD and confirmation, too, but only to appease relatives who would otherwise have a coronary if I didn't. It certainly wasn't a genuine profession of faith on my part.

 

But her unexpected conversion has stirred up some rumblings in my household, as well. She is now teaching a CCD course and is hurt that we have not yet enrolled our children, who to this point have had little to no religious teaching and are getting to be of the age to start asking some pretty big questions. My wife, while still every bit as "lapsed" as I am, has begun questioning how to go about introducing our kids to the idea of religion. (the "we should probably give them a foundation in something, even if they choose otherwise later" argument)

 

I'm dragging my feet because, in my mind, there is a vast chasm between "introducing the idea" and "indoctrinating through weekly classes and mass attendence". I'm unabashedly agnostic and won't pretend to be otherwise. I'm as much a searcher of meaning as anybody else, but have never understood why "I don't know" isn't an acceptable answer when it comes to questions of belief. I've never understood people who claim to know. That kind of assuredness about something so ineffable is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Still, I'm pretty much a live and let live guy.

 

My open-mindedness has its limits, however, and this situation has helped me realize that I've built up quite a bias against Catholicism/Christianity (in other words, my own tolerance kind of sucks ) and this is a real test for me. Its a road I've already been down and, frankly, was happy to leave behind. And I guess I resent the idea of it being somehow the "default" religious position from which to start educating my children. (because I guess it is somehow "wrong" to raise an agnostic/atheist kid)

 

I'm interested to see that there are a number of Buddhists on the board. Meditation practice is an idea I first encountered via psychotherapy for panic attacks, of all places, several years ago and it resonated for me and I began tracing backwards to buddhist traditions. I don't actually call myself a Buddhist, although I don't know why not since, as I understand it (and please correct me if I am wrong), in its most basic form seems to be more of a practice than a religion.(which is a pretty big distinction) Its an idea I'd like to explore more, although I think it still retains enough of an unknown quality in our culture that even my wife raises an eyebrow a little bit at my interest. But, hey, if we're going to agree to take our kids to church once in a while, why not teach them to meditate, as well?

 

Its either going to make for really great, open-minded, well-adjusted kids or else its gonna fuck 'em up in the head just as badly as I am!

Very nice post, q23. I hope things work out for you. As I've said before I found meditation to be very helpful to me.

[Good Old Neon]

nice. of course that is 'religion's' fault...not the people who actually committed the acts.

 

and, no, i don't hang out on aetheist message boards, not do i hang out on god-themed message boards either. i hang out on this one and, again, unlike a good majority of your posts...i'v never challenged anybody's aetheism, nor tried to convince anybody to believe in God. maybe an 'agenda' has less to do with it than you need to not just express your opinion, but prove everybody else's wrong.

 

eh, whatever. god bless.

 

I

[Moe_Syzlak]

I always hesitate to comment on things like this, because it can be so heated and I really feel like it is a personal choice. What works for you is great and I wouldn't tell you you're wrong anymore than i expect to be told I'm wrong. Ultimately, there is no answer to this question. Those like I am Jack's... will always come back to scientific method and others will scoff that science doesn't apply to the spiritual. It's circular. That is why i now consider myself agnostic, but heavily leaning towards atheist. I was raised Catholic, but never had any bad experiences with the church that drove me away. For me, it was simple: as I became older and more able to formulate my own opinions on issues of this magnitude, the concepts of religion of an "God" simply didn't pass the sniff test for me. It just didn't make sense for me and logically (the way I tend to approach things and hence probably why I reached the point I'm at now) it simply seemed that religion represented a form of comfort and control that, at least for me, was not needed. My brother died tragically at age 20, but I didn't feel I required the comfort of belief in an afterlife, for example. And I have always tried to "do right" by others and myself based on natural inclination to do so, not otherworldly rewards. In short, it's what works for me and I have no problem with anyone who chooses another path that works for them. My issues are that i don't feel my beliefs (or lack thereof) infringe on others' beliefs or ability to believe. For me, there are way too many people -- on all sides -- that wish to impose their beliefs. That is really all I would like to see change.

[sweetheart-mine]

I'm interested to see that there are a number of Buddhists on the board. Meditation practice is an idea I first encountered via psychotherapy for panic attacks, of all places, several years ago and it resonated for me and I began tracing backwards to buddhist traditions. I don't actually call myself a Buddhist, although I don't know why not since, as I understand it (and please correct me if I am wrong), in its most basic form seems to be more of a practice than a religion.(which is a pretty big distinction) Its an idea I'd like to explore more, although I think it still retains enough of an unknown quality in our culture that even my wife raises an eyebrow a little bit at my interest. But, hey, if we're going to agree to take our kids to church once in a while, why not teach them to meditate, as well?

many buddhists don't think of it as a religion, though it gets put in that category all over the place, i guess because if you're a buddhist you tend not to be a practicing catholic, hindu, jew, presbyterian, or anything else religious. in countries where there are large buddhist populations, though, some buddhist practices are very much considered sacred and for many it's a large part of daily life. it's one of the few organized religions (maybe the only one) that a person can practice yet call it whatever you think it is. my husband and i tend to think of it as a philosophy, though its teachings are more than that, really, and you're right that it's also a "practice" -- every part of it is, starting of course with the practice of meditation.

 

how interesting that you encountered meditation via therapy for panic attacks. i've had panic disorder for many years -- hey, maybe it's one reason i was drawn to my buddhist husband. you know, people argue about religion and prayer in schools, which i've never thought to be a good idea, but i sure would be all for teaching the practice of meditation in school. the kids would be a lot better prepared for just about anything they might encounter in life. zen buddhism is different from tibetan buddhism, but i do know that the meditation practice of the latter can be taught without any dogma or doctrine whatsoever.

 

ok, class is over for today.

[quarter23cd]

you know, people argue about religion and prayer in schools, which i've never thought to be a good idea, but i sure would be all for teaching the practice of meditation in school. the kids would be a lot better prepared for just about anything they might encounter in life.

The childcare center my kids go to offers different sorts of activities on Fridays and for a month or two recently on Fridays they brought in an instructor who was teaching the kids yoga and meditation...and I thought it was just about the greatest thing I've ever heard of. (plus, if anyone can get my 3 year old to sit still for more than 10 seconds, that's just awesome!)

[EL the Famous]

I

[sweetheart-mine]

The childcare center my kids go to offers different sorts of activities on Fridays and for a month or two recently on Fridays they brought in an instructor who was teaching the kids yoga and meditation...and I thought it was just about the greatest thing I've ever heard of. (plus, if anyone can get my 3 year old to sit still for more than 10 seconds, that's just awesome!)

3-year-olds in america being taught yoga and meditation! wow! that is out-of-this-world fantastic. you just made my day. we don't have kids, but if we did i'd have to ask you where you live and move the family there. also, kudos to you for your openness in general.

 

to dash any impression that i'm a master yogi or meditator: i'm only an admirer, and occasional participant. my mind could still use a lot of work.

 

i love this thread.

[sweetheart-mine]

it's just bothers me to read a lot of the posts that seem more grounded in how someone's belief in god was expressed than the belief itself. bad apples, etc.

coming in from the side here: i'm starting to get where you're coming from on this, i think, but with this post i have trouble separating "how someone's belief in god is expressed" from the belief itself. belief isn't external or objective, so how do people understand belief without people's expression of it?

[quarter23cd]

3-year-olds in america being taught yoga and meditation! wow! that is out-of-this-world fantastic. you just made my day. we don't have kids, but if we did i'd have to ask you where you live and move the family there.

Don't pack your bags just yet. I live just outside Columbus, Ohio (while hardly a cultural backwater, also not the most progressive place in the world), so I couldn't have been more surprised to walk in one day and see a sign that says "Friday is yoga day!" We just happen to have lucked out in finding a very cool place for our kids.

[Good Old Neon]

i've stated it can have both positive and negative effect. much like your 50/50 spilt on what/who is accountable, we disagree on the scale.

 

again, i'm amazed by your argument over 9/11. you've stated you have no belief in the existence of God whatsoever...yet you pony up w/ an example of how responsible he/religion could be considered for it. be it an individual or an entire organized faith, it's still personal interpretation of god's word and (at least in my faith) one has to be held accountable for their actions, divinely inspired or not.

 

it's just bothers me to read a lot of the posts that seem more grounded in how someone's belief in god was expressed than the belief itself. bad apples, etc.

 

Oh I don

[bjorn_skurj]

1. Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters are both great books which have helped me to come to grips with my belief in God and Christ and its implications for the future of my eternal soul. I recommend them to anyone.

 

2. If a supernatural agent really told bin Laden to carry out 9/11, et. al., I would bet that supernatural agent was not God.

 

3. Also written in the Bjorn Book is: "God is perfect; man is not. Religion is a creation of man - our attempt to understand and link back to an entity, a reality that very few of us are equipped to understand very well. Religions vary widely in quality, as do humans, so it's inevitable that bad people will manipulate other people's religious impulses for wicked ends. Does this mean that religion is dangerous and should be discarded? Is that even possible? I don't think so. I also think people would transfer their dickishness to other ideological systems and carry on as usual."

[Good Old Neon]

2. If a supernatural agent really told bin Laden to carry out 9/11, et. al., I would bet that supernatural agent was not God.

 

But why? According to scripture and religious doctrine, throughout history, god has compelled his creations to do much worse. And if everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is all a part of god

[sweetheart-mine]

3. Also written in the Bjorn Book is: "God is perfect; man is not. Religion is a creation of man - our attempt to understand and link back to an entity, a reality that very few of us are equipped to understand very well. Religions vary widely in quality, as do humans, so it's inevitable that bad people will manipulate other people's religious impulses for wicked ends. Does this mean that religion is dangerous and should be discarded? Is that even possible? I don't think so. I also think people would transfer their dickishness to other ideological systems and carry on as usual."

very interesting post. i'm wondering, if you see religion as a creation of man (i agree), how you conceive of god? i mean, you clearly believe in god's existence -- even perfection -- so can you say what the relationship is between him and religion as you see it? i'm asking for interest's sake only. if religion isn't actually related to god or what brought you to believe in god, how did you come to believe in god and his perfection? (or someone like you, if you'd prefer not to get into it!)

 

while in presbyterian sunday school as a kid in poughkeepsie, i was in a group of little kids when the teacher collected us around her and said "god talks to us every day. who here has heard god speaking to you?" and i took that very literally. i had never heard god's voice, speaking to me, and i didn't raise my hand. most of the others did (i think all), and i thought either i was a throwaway or those other kids were liars. sorry, i think this relates to someone else's post!

[Winston Legthigh]

3. Also written in the Bjorn Book is: "God is perfect; man is not. Religion is a creation of man - our attempt to understand and link back to an entity, a reality that very few of us are equipped to understand very well. Religions vary widely in quality, as do humans, so it's inevitable that bad people will manipulate other people's religious impulses for wicked ends. Does this mean that religion is dangerous and should be discarded? Is that even possible? I don't think so. I also think people would transfer their dickishness to other ideological systems and carry on as usual."

 

Oh. My. Science.

[Good Old Neon]

while in presbyterian sunday school as a kid in poughkeepsie, i was in a group of little kids when the teacher collected us around her and said "god talks to us every day. who here has heard god speaking to you?" and i took that very literally. i had never heard god's voice, speaking to me, and i didn't raise my hand. most of the others did (i think all), and i thought either i was a throwaway or those other kids were liars. sorry, i think this relates to someone else's post!

 

Are you sure you didn

[bjorn_skurj]

But why? According to scripture and religious doctrine, throughout history, god has compelled his creations to do much worse. And if everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is all a part of god

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

And if everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is all a part of god

[Good Old Neon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

 

I

[bobbob1313]

I

[Good Old Neon]

I don't believe God had anything to do with the wickedness perpetrated in His name, and those who perpetrated the wickedness had a lot of explaining to do shortly after their deaths, but I have an easier time separating God from religion than some. No one who really had a true understanding of God would launch the Crusades, a jihad, or whatever. While I believe God can control everything that goes on in the universe, I don't think He does. Man, I believe, was created with free will (I admit this particular belief is up for debate, as are all of my beliefs), or else what would be the point of our being created in the first place? If we really ARE marionettes, how come this isn't paradise? Why do we not do everything God tells us to do without temptation to do otherwise? Or maybe, as the Cathars held, Satan is the entity that holds sway over the material world and God only reigns in the spiritual realm. Lewis touches upon this too, characterizing our existence on earth as living in "enemy-occupied territory."

 

I think you