Some good news about Americans and religion

[bjorn_skurj]

very interesting post. i'm wondering, if you see religion as a creation of man (i agree), how you conceive of god? i mean, you clearly believe in god's existence -- even perfection -- so can you say what the relationship is between him and religion as you see it? i'm asking for interest's sake only. if religion isn't actually related to god or what brought you to believe in god, how did you come to believe in god and his perfection? (or someone like you, if you'd prefer not to get into it!)

 

while in presbyterian sunday school as a kid in poughkeepsie, i was in a group of little kids when the teacher collected us around her and said "god talks to us every day. who here has heard god speaking to you?" and i took that very literally. i had never heard god's voice, speaking to me, and i didn't raise my hand. most of the others did (i think all), and i thought either i was a throwaway or those other kids were liars. sorry, i think this relates to someone else's post!

My own personal belief in God goes back as far as I can remember and was first planted at an Episcopalian church, also in Poughkeepsie. This might sound like a cop-out, but I don't think humans have the capacity to fully understand God - maybe some very advanced people had or have this ability - I don't know. From about the age of 12 to the age of 22, I really, really tried to not believe in God, honest I did, embracing for a time every atheistic argument there is, from the complete lack of rationality one to the hypocrisy of its believers one. As I got older and got to know myself better emotionally, I realized that my much-abused and maligned faith was a positive thing, that accepting it made me a better and happier person and that the example that Jesus Christ set of compassion, love and sacrifice was the best way to live life. (I am quoting from a secondary source, but the founder of the Jesuits defined belief as a "sacrifice of reason.") To be honest, LSD, repeated playings of the Jesus Christ Superstar album and Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ played a part in this as well.

Whether one believes in Christ's divinity or not, I defy anyone to come up with a better role model - based on Jesus' words and acts alone and not those of the disciples. It's a model I continually fall short of - for example, I am actually quite private about my religious beliefs, ashamed of them in a way. This really is the most I have ever expounded on them and I still think it's too "uncool" to actually go to church. I hope one day to transcend that. (Also holding me back is the fact that there is nothing more awful than a bunch of people who can't sing for shit singing. If I could find a church where people just hang out and listen to Bob Marley at certain points of the service, that'd be awesome.)

As far as what I believe the ultimate reality of God might be, I wouldn't dare to speculate - I think the Hindus are closest to the mark on this when they state that God's ultimate nature is unknowable and He wears "masks" so we can have a partial understanding. I do think that evolution is His greatest work of genius, though.

[Good Old Neon]

If you don't believe in the guy, then what do you care about how other's choose to justify their beliefs?

 

Because many of those justifications and beliefs are used as a tool to control large portions of the population, in many cases, to their detriment.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think you

[bobbob1313]

Because many of those justifications and beliefs are used as a tool to control large portions of the population, in many cases, to their detriment.

 

I don't think open theism falls under that category. In this instance, you seem to just be mad that people believe something in a personal way, or rather, don't accept all of the trappings of the believing in God under the watchful eyes of the church. The idea of people having a personal relationship with their God that doesn't conveniently allow you to write them off as mindless sheep leaves you grasping for straws.

 

I don't have a problem with railing against organized religion because I'm all for bringing down most overly large, omnipresent groups that have a controlling interest in our lives, but a belief in the free will of man and his relationship to God as described by open theism doesn't seem like something that needs to be criticized.

 

Why do you care if people try to justify their belief in God while still rejecting some of the more well rooted teachings of the church and bible? Why would you criticize that? What's the point?

 

 

 

(This post seems like a mess when I'm typing it, so it might not make any sense...)

[bjorn_skurj]

I think all our friend wants is freedom FROM religion intruding upon his life in any way, which is gonna be tough in a nation where prob. 80 percent of the people believe in God.

[Analogman]

I think all our friend wants is freedom FROM religion intruding upon his life in any way, which is gonna be tough in a nation where prob. 80 percent of the people believe in God.

 

We can always hope - keep hope alive.

[bobbob1313]

I think he would also be pretty pleased if religion wasn't in anyone's life, seeing as he tries to undercut seemingly everyone's beliefs at every turn.

 

And either way, it seems way too much to ask. Our country is ruled by the will of the people, and if 80% of the people believe in God, shouldn't we then expect that to be reflected in the way our country is run? I understand not wanting to legislate religion, but I'm not going to be pissed off if people vote based on their own morals which are guided by their religion. Just as he and myself and any other atheist would vote based on our morals which are guided by things other than a belief in an omnipresent, omniscient God.

[Moe_Syzlak]

I think all our friend wants is freedom FROM religion intruding upon his life in any way, which is gonna be tough in a nation where prob. 80 percent of the people believe in God.

Yup, but that's exactly what the separation of church and state is about. It is to protect against the tyranny of the majority.

 

I have a question for those saying that God (however you define it) has nothing to do with the evils committed in HIs name. What about the good deeds done in his name? Do you give god credit for that? On a more lighthearted note, I always think of athletes thanking God after a win. Are the guys on the losing team blaming Him?

[Good Old Neon]

The idea of people having a personal relationship with their God that doesn't conveniently allow you to write them off as mindless sheep leaves you grasping for straws.

 

 

Please, don

[bjorn_skurj]

I have a question for those saying that God (however you define it) has nothing to do with the evils committed in HIs name. What about the good deeds done in his name? Do you give god credit for that?

Sure. I do, at least. When I pray, I pray for two things, generally - strength to face the challenges in my life without being an asshole about it and protection for the people I care about. And I express gratitude for my life, the day and the blessings which have been bestowed upon me, many of which I do not fully appreciate or even deserve, really.

[bobbob1313]

Please, don’t put that shit on me, because I’ve never once said or expressed that. There are millions upon millions of thoughtful, intelligent, reasonable believers out there, and I have absolutely no problem with them, at all, really, I don’t. But there are also millions upon millions of “sheep” out there, folks who are the polar opposite of bjorn or uncle wilco or ikol or Beltman – and some of them are dangerous, on a micro and macro scale, these are the folks I have issues with.

 

Though I was not referring to open theism specifically, I can certainly see how you came to that conclusion – shame on me for being less than clear.

 

I think you'll have to forgive people for assuming things like that when you paint with such broad strokes. Of course, I realize that it is impossible to lay out your entire belief system on a message board, if people are going to try to work out who you are, all they can go with is what they know, and what they know based on this board is that stuff.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Sure. I do, at least. When I pray, I pray for two things, generally - strength to face the challenges in my life without being an asshole about it and protection for the people I care about. And I express gratitude for my life, the day and the blessings which have been bestowed upon me, many of which I do not fully appreciate or even deserve, really.

So don't you have to take the good with the bad? In your interpretation of God and the Bible, it gives you strength to do what you feel is the right thing. In some's (perhaps misguided) interpretations they are doing what they feel is good, even if we perceive it as evil. It's all human interpretation: the good and the bad.

[ikol]

I have a question for those saying that God (however you define it) has nothing to do with the evils committed in HIs name. What about the good deeds done in his name? Do you give god credit for that? On a more lighthearted note, I always think of athletes thanking God after a win. Are the guys on the losing team blaming Him?

 

I don't see anything contradictory about that. If you view God as the source of all good, it doesn't follow that He is the source of all evil, especially if you view evil as a lack of good rather than a positive quality.

[Moe_Syzlak]

I don't see anything contradictory about that. If you view God as the source of all good, it doesn't follow that He is the source of all evil, especially if you view evil as a lack of good rather than a positive quality.

We're talking about acts committed by individuals whose personal interpretations of "God's will" influence their actions. We may perceive the actions of Mother theresa as good and Osama Bin Laden as evil, but I'm pretty sure that there are faithful in the world who don't see it that way.

[Winston Legthigh]

If you view God as the source of all good, it doesn't follow that He is the source of all evil, especially if you view evil as a lack of good rather than a positive quality.

 

It doesn't make sense that a singular omnipotent God would be the source of one but not the other.

[bjorn_skurj]

It doesn't make sense that a singular omnipotent God would be the source of one but not the other.

Evil is the job of the Morning Star, the Adversary, the fallen angel.

[sweetheart-mine]

My own personal belief in God goes back as far as I can remember and was first planted at an Episcopalian church, also in Poughkeepsie. This might sound like a cop-out, but I don't think humans have the capacity to fully understand God - maybe some very advanced people had or have this ability - I don't know. From about the age of 12 to the age of 22, I really, really tried to not believe in God, honest I did, embracing for a time every atheistic argument there is, from the complete lack of rationality one to the hypocrisy of its believers one. As I got older and got to know myself better emotionally, I realized that my much-abused and maligned faith was a positive thing, that accepting it made me a better and happier person and that the example that Jesus Christ set of compassion, love and sacrifice was the best way to live life. (I am quoting from a secondary source, but the founder of the Jesuits defined belief as a "sacrifice of reason.") To be honest, LSD, repeated playings of the Jesus Christ Superstar album and Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ played a part in this as well.

Whether one believes in Christ's divinity or not, I defy anyone to come up with a better role model - based on Jesus' words and acts alone and not those of the disciples. It's a model I continually fall short of - for example, I am actually quite private about my religious beliefs, ashamed of them in a way. This really is the most I have ever expounded on them and I still think it's too "uncool" to actually go to church. I hope one day to transcend that. (Also holding me back is the fact that there is nothing more awful than a bunch of people who can't sing for shit singing. If I could find a church where people just hang out and listen to Bob Marley at certain points of the service, that'd be awesome.)

As far as what I believe the ultimate reality of God might be, I wouldn't dare to speculate - I think the Hindus are closest to the mark on this when they state that God's ultimate nature is unknowable and He wears "masks" so we can have a partial understanding. I do think that evolution is His greatest work of genius, though.

wow, thank you for this. i really like your reasons: "... accepting it made me a better and happier person and ... the example that Jesus Christ set of compassion, love and sacrifice was the best way to live life." the jesuits' founder defining belief as a sacrifice of reason is, i think, why some of us cannot and/or do not want to do it (believe). but your reasons seem to me, well, reasonable. and honorable. i don't think -- this is in general -- that believers are better people than others (and i know you didn't say that), but many do seem happier, and during the more despairing times of my life i've wished i could do it, sometimes wished pretty hard, but all the while knowing it wouldn't happen, so the wishing has never gone on for long. i've briefly envied those who believe in god but then in the end found other comforts and other ways of giving. not to mention therapy and a good cosmo.

 

my life has myriad spiritual aspects (at least that's how i see them), but they are much more amorphous than any organized religion presents. as an agnostic, i don't see this thing you said as a cop-out at all: "...I don't think humans have the capacity to fully understand God...." If there is a god or other larger-than-human life force, that thought of yours makes perfect sense to me.

 

oh yah, there are a number of drawbacks to going to church as i recall, one for sure being the congregation's singing! others include getting up early after saturday night; trying to keep a straight face during a serious sermon while pew-mate young buddies laugh uncontrollably at the seriousness; not admiring the hat on the head in front of me; watching mrs stepata sitting there so purely when i knew she was an awful bitch the rest of the week.

 

re: bob marley: of course, that reminds me of tweedy's imagining that a good concert is like what church ought to be.

[ikol]

It doesn't make sense that a singular omnipotent God would be the source of one but not the other.

 

If you view both good and evil as positive qualities (i.e. they are both things), then you might be right. However, if only good is positive, while evil is merely the absence of good, then God is no more the source of evil than He is the source of nothing.

[bobbob1313]

I will never understand why people try to back religious folks into logical traps like that. Live and let live, people.

[quarter23cd]

If I could find a church where people just hang out and listen to Bob Marley at certain points of the service, that'd be awesome.

I think you're onto something here.

[Winston Legthigh]

I will never understand why people try to back religious folks into logical traps like that. Live and let live, people.

?

 

Who's not letting live? Who's to say i'm not "religious folk?"

[mfwahl]

Yes, my agenda all along has been to convert the entire VW community into faithless atheists. The jig is up

[bobbob1313]

?

 

Who's not letting live? Who's to say i'm not "religious folk?"

 

Then what's the point of doing that? The only reason I can see someone doing that is so that they can go "AHA! You don't really believe what you believe! Gotcha!"

 

It seems dumb.

[Winston Legthigh]

Then what's the point of doing that? The only reason I can see someone doing that is so that they can go "AHA! You don't really believe what you believe! Gotcha!"

 

It seems dumb.

 

Take it easy. ikol's statement didn't make sense to me. ikol clarified it.

[bobbob1313]

Not just you.