WWIII Beginning...?

[bjorn_skurj]

There's also the whole issue of Georgia's NATO aspirations and the fact that they were helping us out in Iraq.

 

That's all very nice, but even if we weren't in Iraq, we are not taking on the Red Army in its own backyard over a small country. Hopefully, Russia will not kill too many people before they decide to stop.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I just saw a headline across the bottom of the screen on MSNBC that said:

 

"WHY YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT THE WAR IN GEORGIA"

 

Sheesh. Apparently, we really need to spell out for people why this is big deal.

 

 

After all this is America. You shouldn't be surprised.

[fatheadfred]

There's also the whole issue of Georgia's NATO aspirations and the fact that they were helping us out in Iraq.

 

Yeah, I am trying to figure this out from the internets. I even scanned some message boards in Russia...they feel like the victims. But then, the westerners say Georgia is the victim mostly due to this contingent of border countries with NATO aims. Scary thinking how these flare ups could lead to WW 3. You think the global economy was enacted to help marginalize all out WW due to opportunity cost of lost consumers for each country (market)? Unless a contingent of the willing enacted plans to bum rush the whole show. Russia, Iran, China? Pretty formidable. How would you answer to that?

 

It is hard to fathom living during WW 1 and 2 and feeling a sense that everything is balls out war.

[Gobias Industries]

China, however, cares too much about economic growth to do anything. I mean, they've put off reclaiming Taiwan for 50 years so they can develop into an industrialized nation. Russia, Iran, yeah, I suppose it's entirely possible.

[bjorn_skurj]

Hey, all it took was one disgruntled Bosnian Serb, a gun and a twist of fate to start the Great War 94 years ago this month.

[John Smith]

FYI, this thread is not about Bush.

 

Sorry but this thread has to be at least partially about Bush nothing happens in a vaccum...

 

Back in 2005, speaking before a crowd of more than 150,000 exuberant Georgians cheering "Bushi! Bushi!", President Bush made a promise to the people of that former Soviet republic: "The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

 

 

So when Georgia made a move to militarilly get their breakaway province of Osettia (sp?) back into the fold and the Russian's invaded in response, did the Georgians make their move with the belief that the US would be there? Or was this simply a case of empty rhetoric? Regardless of what you or I think about what the president said, the people of Georgia believe that the US was going to be there for them. Or at least that's what the various refugees and civillians have been saying.

 

Outside of the war discussion should the US be pushing for countries in Asia Minor to join NATO? Should we be pushing for countries to join NATO when we know it will only make relations with Russia or any other power worse? Or is it simply a matter of us piling up our allies to get the us against you situation with more of us than they have of you? Do we have to make every dealing with Russia a confrontation?

[Good Old Neon]

Sorry but this thread has to be at least partially about Bush nothing happens in a vaccum...

 

Back in 2005, speaking before a crowd of more than 150,000 exuberant Georgians cheering "Bushi! Bushi!", President Bush made a promise to the people of that former Soviet republic: "The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

 

 

So when Georgia made a move to militarilly get their breakaway province of Osettia (sp?) back into the fold and the Russian's invaded in response, did the Georgians make their move with the belief that the US would be there? Or was this simply a case of empty rhetoric? Regardless of what you or I think about what the president said, the people of Georgia believe that the US was going to be there for them. Or at least that's what the various refugees and civillians have been saying.

 

Outside of the war discussion should the US be pushing for countries in Asia Minor to join NATO? Should we be pushing for countries to join NATO when we know it will only make relations with Russia or any other power worse? Or is it simply a matter of us piling up our allies to get the us against you situation with more of us than they have of you? Do we have to make every dealing with Russia a confrontation?

 

Good point(s)

[bjorn_skurj]

In this case, Georgia is the drunk friend who decides he wants to get into it with a tiger at the zoo, moons the tiger, tells the tiger he's going to kick its tiger ass, then jumps in the cage and promptly gets mauled. The U.S. is the not-as-drunk-and-possibly-on-probation friend who gets out of there ASAP before the cops show up.

[Good Old Neon]

In this case, Georgia is the drunk friend who decides he wants to get into it with a tiger at the zoo, moons the tiger, tells the tiger he's going to kick its tiger ass, then jumps in the cage and promptly gets mauled. The U.S. is the not-as-drunk-and-possibly-on-probation friend who gets out of there ASAP before the cops show up.

 

That. Was. Awesome.

[John Smith]

In this case, Georgia is the drunk friend who decides he wants to get into it with a tiger at the zoo, moons the tiger, tells the tiger he's going to kick its tiger ass, then jumps in the cage and promptly gets mauled. The U.S. is the not-as-drunk-and-possibly-on-probation friend who gets out of there ASAP before the cops show up.

 

Or perhaps the US is the one who supplied the beer? McLovin if you will.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

In this case, Georgia is the drunk friend who decides he wants to get into it with a tiger at the zoo, moons the tiger, tells the tiger he's going to kick its tiger ass, then jumps in the cage and promptly gets mauled. The U.S. is the not-as-drunk-and-possibly-on-probation friend who gets out of there ASAP before the cops show up.

It's really not that simple at all. I'm not sure why you're under that impression.

[bjorn_skurj]

It's really not that simple at all. I'm not sure why you're under that impression.

Must be pro-Russian media, which gives me the impression that Saakashvili's entire political life is based upon "standing up" to Russia on the South Ossetia/Abkhazia issue. Plus, any country which borders on Russia and tries to join NATO is taking its life into its hands. Putin don't play that. If Saakashvili REALLY thought the EU or the U.S. would get his bacon out of the fire on this, he was crazy.

But, it should be said that this situation reminds one of the Sudetenland in 1938, and we may have a new Cold War on our hands. Let's see what happens with the Ukraine.

[aricandover]

You'd think that the Georgians would've learned from the Second Chechen War and not given the Russians an excuse to send tanks to the border.

[bjorn_skurj]

Here is a long article from which I got everything I know about this:

 

A long article about this

[Hixter]

Do we have to make every dealing with Russia a confrontation?

 

Putin and Russia are the ones who are flexing their muscles. Last year they restarted their "we're going to fly our heavy bombers right up to your borders" flights, they've poisoned people in other countries and last week they were talking about basing their bombers in Cuba. The confrontations are not coming from the U.S., but rather a newly revived Russian bear coming out of hibernation after more than 15 years.

[John Smith]

Putin and Russia are the ones who are flexing their muscles. Last year they restarted their "we're going to fly our heavy bombers right up to your borders" flights, they've poisoned people in other countries and last week they were talking about basing their bombers in Cuba. The confrontations are not coming from the U.S., but rather a newly revived Russian bear coming out of hibernation after more than 15 years.

 

While it is True that the current aggression started with the Georgia/South Ossetia situation and Russia

[Hixter]

My reference to Russia/US confrontations is in regards to so many other unstated factors that have occurred over the years, the back story so to speak. Things such as the US pushing for NATO membership for so many former Soviet client states and former Soviet Union members. Yes we are pushing for Georgia to be in NATO, we are pushing for the Ukraine and Belarus etc

[bjorn_skurj]

From BBC:

 

Georgia and Russia agree on truce

 

Russia and Georgia have agreed a truce brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and have approved the principles of a full peace plan.

 

The exact details of the proposals appeared to be still under discussion.

 

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili suggested some details agreed by Russia were unacceptable and said the document needed fleshing out.

 

Earlier, Russia announced its military activity in the area was completed and witnesses saw troops pulling out.

 

But despite the diplomacy and apparent withdrawal, rhetoric on both sides remained fiery and analysts were predicting a long road to peace.

 

Fighting flared last Thursday night when Georgia sent its army to regain control of South Ossetia - a region nominally part of Georgia, but with de facto independence and where a majority of people hold Russian passports.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

As a country if Russia made these same moves and was deploying the system in Canada and Mexico and invited them to join the Warsaw Pact we would view these things as aggressive.

 

This may or may not mean that the US policy is the root cause of what is occurring over there right now, but we have definitely been a contributing factor.

 

 

I knew if I left this thread open long enough, this old warhorse statement would make an appearance. Almost as sure as Godwin's law will come into play soon.

[bjorn_skurj]

Godwin's Law might get suspended in this case, as the South Ossetia-Sudetenland comparison is valid.

[John Smith]

There's a reason those former members of the Soviet Union have aligned themselves with the U.S. and not Russia: they don't trust them. They've been on the receiving end of the bear's claws and they see the U.S. as a more dependable ally, hence today's show of support where the leaders of Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania and Lativia joined the rally in Georgia.

 

Russia knows that the proposed *defensive* anti-missile system is designed to protect Europe from Iran and North Korea and is not a threat to them. But they still dream of recovering their former glory and swallowing up those republics again one day and it'll be much more difficult if American/NATO troops and installations are already there.

 

this is spin. Of course the system is on paper defensive. But if it ever worked the way it is proposed it essentially takes away one nations first strike capability and it takes away their retaliatory capability. The best offese is a good defense that allows you to dictae the game. And this system is not in place to protect Europe from Iran or Korea. Europe and Korea have no issues, all their issues are for the most part with the US Ditto for Iran.

 

Sure those countries might naturally align themselves with the US, but we are actively pushing the issue. In spite of the rhetoric our administration has worked dilligently to isolate Russia. The Neocons have their laundry list of countries they have issues with and Russia is one of them. One reason is for the communist past the other is because Russia has huge natural resources and the Neocons world view is one where the US can militarily dominate resource rich area's or have friendly governments in place to ensure the resources we need keep coming to us. We are not in a postion to do either with Russia.

 

I knew if I left this thread open long enough, this old warhorse statement would make an appearance. Almost as sure as Godwin's law will come into play soon.

 

Is any part of the staement I made untrue? Our nation would collectively shit its pants if Russia behaveed in our back yard the way we do in theirs. I could just as easily say something about your non-sequitor making its obligatory appearance.

 

There is a reason "godwins" works. It is because any discussion can work incrimentally towards an imaginary do not cross line. So why not just bring out the Nazi comparison and say here it is, here is the absolute extreme to prove that argument A will always have a point where the behavior becomes unacceptable. I suppose you could Sub In Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or anyone of a hundred tyrants, but everyone knows what the Nazis' did and who they were, Not every one is familiar with how the brits tried to subdue Afghanistan or with Pol Pot etc... It just works to end the discussion.