Wilco and atheism

[Good Old Neon]

I've seen that book. I'm sure the book is, like I've been trying to say all along, just a different way of arriving at a similar conclusion ie "music sounds good and makes me feel good." I'd rather spend my time reading Bukowski (who was surely channeling some other force in his writing. If you don't believe me, read the first 10 pages of Women).

 

I

[Good Old Neon]

I consider myself a fairly decent writer, and I write fiction for my own enjoyment (though I

[yermom]

That's one option. Or, you can try option B, which is to leave the statistics for those that need things explained to them, and figure out all this stuff for yourself. Figuring it out for yourself is a bit tougher of a path, but ultimately much more rewarding. Give it a try. Everyone seems so hung up on "finding answers." The only way to find answers is to seek them yourself, not to listen to a theologist or scientist because in either one's case, they've found their own answers through their own experiences. Do the same thing for yourself and you'll find the answers you're looking for. Hopefully, like myself, you will see that whether its science

I understand that we all need to take personal journeys on a spiritual (or whatever) path, but I'd like our search for ultimate truths about things like the origin of the universe to be a collective one. If every theologist or scientist in history ignored the work of his predecessors and tried to figure everything out on his/her own, we'd be even less knowledgeable than we are now about the physical world. Understanding the physical world leads to understanding the seemingly incorporeal world...unusual behavior isn't a demon inside you but perhaps a chemical disruption in the brain, lightening isn't a god on Olympus taking aim, etc.

 

I think this awesome quote is relevant to this thread:

 

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

---H.P. Lovecraft.

 

I don't know about youse guys, but I think I'd rather we all see the "terrifying vista of reality, and our frightful position therein" than cloak ourselves in a shroud of ignorant bliss. I think we can handle it. I think we could all still find peace and purpose in a world where we are discovered to be insignificant specks with no great creator watching over us. I have that much faith in our species.

[Good Old Neon]

I understand that we all need to take personal journeys on a spiritual (or whatever) path, but I'd like our search for ultimate truths about things like the origin of the universe to be a collective one. If every theologist or scientist in history ignored the work of his predecessors and tried to figure everything out on his/her own, we'd be even less knowledgeable than we are now about the physical world. Understanding the physical world leads to understanding the seemingly incorporeal world...unusual behavior isn't a demon inside you but perhaps a chemical disruption in the brain, lightening isn't a god on Olympus taking aim, etc.

 

I think this awesome quote is relevant to this thread:

 

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

---H.P. Lovecraft.

 

I don't know about youse guys, but I think I'd rather we all see the "terrifying vista of reality, and our frightful position therein" than cloak ourselves in a shroud of ignorant bliss. I think we can handle it. I think we could all still find peace and purpose in a world where we are discovered to be insignificant specks with no great creator watching over us. I have that much faith in our species.

 

Beautifully said (I'm thrilled to see you finally wade into this discussion) -

[yermom]

Hey, dude. I was here before...I said you're all hawt.

[Good Old Neon]

Hey, dude. I was here before...I said you're all hawt.

 

Well so yeah and but the sentiment is mutual - but yeah, I've been looking forward to something a bit more substantial, and I got it soooo.... thank you.

[EL the Famous]

P.S., I've been watching my kids all day, I've had a few beers, they may not want to actually take a nap now that they have allowed me to sink them into their cribs. Whoever is in charge of banning posters should keep a very close eye on me this mid-afternoon.

 

P.P.S., I still find this whole thing funny. Advance apologies about that.

 

P.P.P.S., I'm stoked TheMaker caught my Richard Dawson thing.

 

P.P.P.P.S., MChris was feeling herself up. Awesome!

[Panther]

Science has a theory. Science can imagine something, but religion claims to know and believe what it proclaims. Religion offers truth claims. Sorry, you're being stupid. Try harder to understand the claims made by science and religion, please.

 

The "believers" in this thread have gotten exponentionally dumber since I exited it.

 

dude if you read what I said then there is no need to explain what science is to me I understand I

[markosis]

I'd like our search for ultimate truths about things like the origin of the universe to be a collective one.

 

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say all along. Some use science, some use religion, some use art, some use whatever, and all any of us is doing is trying to figure out our own purpose so its pointless to bicker about each other's "contradictory" beliefs when the reality is were all stiving for the same thing: meaning.

 

We, us humans, despite all our failures and shortcomings, were pretty fucking cool, and I see no reason to attribute our achievements to anyone or anything but ourselves.

 

Well, yeah, I don't just walk over to my guitar and slap my hands on it and say "OK great divine force give me an idea." It takes effort and trial and error, and I know the transcendent feeling I recieve when I'm totally vibing and creating freely, and its one I attribute to something more powerful than myself. The point I was making with Bukowski was to read a 200 page novel in three days and be totally engrossed in that world was a transcendent experience. See, now maybe I should explain my side a little more clearly: Some may say it's firing synapses in the brain, I say I'm tapped in to the universal inspiration, but I also say its the same thing, just worded differently. Its not really the point to worry so much about the means of reaching the conclusion, when the conclusion is the same thing.

 

That is my ultimate point in all of this: It doesn't matter what you call it when its really the same thing. Example: A song. "Far, Far Away," for the sake of example. You may call it a happy song, I may call it a sad song, but its the same song. The reasons you have for calling it happy may seemingly contradict the reasons I have for calling it sad, but its the same song we're listening to, simply through different ears into different brains.

[yermom]

Hey, something weird just happened here. Who spiked my Coke Zero?

I had this page up, went away to get a hair cut and read through it when I returned. I then hit refresh to see if there were new posts and I could swear a post was missing? Did someone delete something? PANTHER or Markosis, I believe? Whoever it was, I liked what you'd said there.

[Good Old Neon]

dude if you read what I said then there is no need to explain what science is to me I understand I

[Central Scrutinizer]

The "believers" in this thread have gotten exponentionally dumber since I exited it.

I'm betting there's a sucking sound following you whenever you go.

 

BTW, it's exponentially.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Yes - we can. If you're really interested in understanding the evolution of music, I suggest you stop by the library and pick up Daniel Levitin's This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession

 

http://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Brain-Musi...n/dp/0525949690

That is some interesting stuff. I posted a link to his most recent book sometime back ....

 

No, not really - in the reality based science community, it is theology that presents the contrarian argument. Nowhere within the world of science is it accepted that a higher power exists - theology and religion claims otherwise, so, in fact, the onus is on your team to present empirical evidence of the existance of god.

But we're not in a science community. I have home-field advantage. You're up!

[Central Scrutinizer]

I have that much faith in our species.

Hey, our species was responsible for George W. Bush. Got faith?

[markosis]

I had this page up, went away to get a hair cut and read through it when I returned. I then hit refresh to see if there were new posts and I could swear a post was missing? Did someone delete something? PANTHER or Markosis, I believe? Whoever it was, I liked what you'd said there.

 

I think it was something to the effect of:

 

everyone, in conversations about theology, gets all hung up on "the origins of the universe" and "what happens when we die." For me, here's how I deal with those issues:

 

1. We were created, and we are here. That much is true. Why that is, I don't know, and I don't particularly care. I know I am here now and I'll focus on the future instead of the past.

2. What happens when we die? We won't know until we're dead, so there's really no point worrying about it because there's no way of knowing.

 

Was that it? I deleted it because I thought it sounded a little harsh.

[yermom]

That was it! I'm down with the "won't know until we're dead, so there's really no point in worrying about it." I'm a big fan of focusing on the life I know I've got to live today, rather than living for some mysterious life that might come after this heart stops thumping.

[lost highway]

When I left town for the weekend this thread was looking stimulating and respectful. It took a swing into a-hole territory. Oh well, people get touchy about this stuff.

[Spawn's dad]

True, but that does not mean one cannot draw inspiration from the underlying principles. My vegetarianism stems from the Buddhist belief that all life is "sacred"

[lost highway]

just another a-hole in a religion thread

 

Hey, you're alright.

[Good Old Neon]

for what it's worth, Buddhists really don't believe all life is sacred, really more that one isn't more valuable than another. And the Zen spin on things

could equate a life being worth about as much as a pile of shit. You might want to head to head out and grab a steak. The Buddhist path is more about using skillful means to depersonalize our expereince of the world so we can view more closely the way things actually are when divorced from our conditioned view of reality. Truth is, Buddhism isn't a vegetarian religion at all. Mendicant monastics like the Theravadans eat whatever they are offered, and Zen and Tibetan Buddhists both consume meat. While many Buddhists (in particular western) choose to be vegetarians there really is nothing that says it's ideal or even desirable. In fact, the Buddha actually spoke out against it when his cousin, Devadata, tried to mandate that the monks lived as vegetarians.

 

just another a-hole in a religion thread

 

Yeah, I'm more of a Mahayana man myself - but yeah, I understand that not all buddhists are vegetarians - of course, I know a bit more about it now than I did 20 years ago (which, probably still isnt' all that much at all really). In actuality, my personal beliefs w/r/t the sacredness of all life are probably more closely alligned with Jainism (stripped free of all the mysticism and such) than Buddhism - for what it's worth.

[Spawn's dad]

all due respect, you're way too big of a prick to be a Jain.

[Good Old Neon]

all due respect, you're way too big of a prick to be a Jain.

 

Yeah, I've sort of made prickishness a virtue.

[Spawn's dad]

Plus, I can't imagine that mouth cover working for you...though I bet many in here wish it would

 

[Good Old Neon]

Plus, I can't imagine that mouth cover working for you...though I bet many in here wish it would

 

 

- though, more often than not, I use my fingers...when I type, I use my fingers when I type.

[sweetheart-mine]

Hey, you're alright.

no, he was right. that guy is always right.