Wilco and atheism

[Central Scrutinizer]

I think this discussion is so yesterday, but I just want to point out that this is exactly the reason I presented my thoughts on the issue. Why is faith the starting point and it takes some misfortune to cause someone to lose it? There is no reason to start with faith other than the teachings of those that have raised you. At some point in life, you may feel "touched" by God and that may cause you to have faith. But you weren't born with that. God -- at least our various images of God (god(s) could exist -- I don't know, you don't know and so forth) -- are human creations.

There are things you have no control over -- you don't have to be a person of any faith to understand and agree with the "serenity prayer." Worry about the things you can change, don't worry about the things you can't change, and be able to know the difference.

 

Anyone can become overwhelmed by any combination of maladies. How you deal with it and get yourself out of bed is your believe system -- again doesn't have to have anything to do with God -- It's how you rationalize, deal with or come terms with meeting those maladies and being able to get out of bed. Be well and live well.

[Moe_Syzlak]

There are things you have no control over -- you don't have to be a person of any faith to understand and agree with the "serenity prayer." Worry about the things you can change, don't worry about the things you can't change, and be able to know the difference.

 

Anyone can become overwhelmed by any combination of maladies. How you deal with it and get yourself out of bed is your believe system -- again doesn't have to have anything to do with God -- It's how you rationalize, deal with or come terms with meeting those maladies and being able to get out of bed. Be well and live well.

No offense but I don't know what that has to do with my post you quoted.

[Central Scrutinizer]

No offense but I don't know what that has to do with my post you quoted.

You deal with the same problems whether you were ingrained from the womb to believe in god or whether the question is never raised. You have to deal with life. Some people reach the conclusion to lean on a creator, some lean on drugs, some build a comfort system -- avoidance, rationalizations, compromise, etc. -- to deal with life. Your believe system is based on something even if it's only behavioral.

 

You don't have to have faith to "lose it." As an atheist, met with crises, you behaviorally go through depression, despair, etc. How you react is wired the way you're wired. Despair = losing faith, just different origins, different terminology.

[jakobnicholas]

I think this discussion is so yesterday, but I just want to point out that this is exactly the reason I presented my thoughts on the issue. Why is faith the starting point and it takes some misfortune to cause someone to lose it? There is no reason to start with faith other than the teachings of those that have raised you. At some point in life, you may feel "touched" by God and that may cause you to have faith. But you weren't born with that. God -- at least our various images of God (god(s) could exist -- I don't know, you don't know and so forth) -- are human creations.

 

 

I'm not saying it takes a misfortune to lose it. But I know people who have had serious setbacks and/or injuries that devastated them and made them wonder how God (assuming He exists) could put them through that. And I get that.

 

None of us have an answer. But pure faith says that it's not for us to understand all the terrible things that happen. The most biblical followers and believers know we don't live on and shouldn't expect life to be Eden.

 

Yes, my beliefs are mostly the way they are because I was baptized and raised Catholic. Who knows what belief system I'd have had I not been raised that way. If I didn't have my religious beliefs, I think much of my life might be different....in some ways, maybe negatively.

 

I believe that those who are raised agnostic or atheist, shouldn't be expected to be believers. But hopefully, for one reason or another, they discover Christianity or something that makes them think/wonder about a higher power. I think it keeps people hopeful and more optimistic.

 

 

As for God being a human creation....I personally think you're wrong about that. I'm basing my belief on hundreds of years of writings and beliefs being passed on, but for me, God (Jesus) was witnessed by humans. Can I prove that? No. Can you prove I'm full of shit? No.

 

 

I DO love the quote by Tweedy about saying music, like religion, is a way for people to not feel alone. That should be something we can all agree on.

[Good Old Neon]

I think this discussion is so yesterday, but I just want to point out that this is exactly the reason I presented my thoughts on the issue. Why is faith the starting point and it takes some misfortune to cause someone to lose it? There is no reason to start with faith other than the teachings of those that have raised you. At some point in life, you may feel "touched" by God and that may cause you to have faith. But you weren't born with that. God -- at least our various images of God (god(s) could exist -- I don't know, you don't know and so forth) -- are human creations.

 

Exactly, outside of an ancient text, written by man, there exists not a single piece of evidence that presupposes us to believe in the existence of a god or gods. Further, the bible and other similar religious texts were written at a time when human understanding of the natural world and/or astrological events was in its infancy

[Moe_Syzlak]

You deal with the same problems whether you were ingrained from the womb to believe in god or whether the question is never raised. You have to deal with life. Some people reach the conclusion to lean on a creator, some lean on drugs, some build a comfort system -- avoidance, rationalizations, compromise, etc. -- to deal with life. Your believe system is based on something even if it's only behavioral.

 

You don't have to have faith to "lose it." As an atheist, met with crises, you behaviorally go through depression, despair, etc. How you react is wired the way you're wired. Despair = losing faith, just different origins, different terminology.

Oh I understand what you're saying, it just has nothing to do with my post or point. You seem to be talking about belief systems and how they -- whatever they are -- help one get through life. My point is, in response to jakobnicholas, that we ALL don't start with a belief or faith in god(s). You may feel you did, but I would say it is a learned behavior. But for the sake of discussion, even if you were born with an innate faith in God, not everyone is (I know I wasn't despite being raised Catholic and baptized just like jakobnicholas). Therefore, the presupposition that faith is lost in all cases is erroneous. Believers always start with the premise that God exists and is a part of all of us and, in many cases, this also goes with the premise that your faith is the right faith. Understanding and tolerance of other faith and the lack of faith would be much easier to attain, IMO, if these prejudices were lost. When one puts forth that an atheist must have gone through a misfortune in order to arrive at their world view, can you see how that might be seen as insulting? It's really the same as when an atheist posits that believers must be stupid and deluding themselves. Both are offensive and incorrect.

[sweetheart-mine]

Oh I understand what you're saying, it just has nothing to do with my post or point. You seem to be talking about belief systems and how they -- whatever they are -- help one get through life. My point is, in response to jakobnicholas, that we ALL don't start with a belief or faith in god(s). You may feel you did, but I would say it is a learned behavior. But for the sake of discussion, even if you were born with an innate faith in God, not everyone is (I know I wasn't despite being raised Catholic and baptized just like jakobnicholas). Therefore, the presupposition that faith is lost in all cases is erroneous. Believers always start with the premise that God exists and is a part of all of us and, in many cases, this also goes with the premise that your faith is the right faith. Understanding and tolerance of other faith and the lack of faith would be much easier to attain, IMO, if these prejudices were lost. When one puts forth that an atheist must have gone through a misfortune in order to arrive at their world view, can you see how that might be seen as insulting? It's really the same as when an atheist posits that believers must be stupid and deluding themselves. Both are offensive and incorrect.

 

bravo and amen.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Oh I understand what you're saying, it just has nothing to do with my post or point. You seem to be talking about belief systems and how they -- whatever they are -- help one get through life. My point is, in response to jakobnicholas, that we ALL don't start with a belief or faith in god(s). You may feel you did, but I would say it is a learned behavior. But for the sake of discussion, even if you were born with an innate faith in God, not everyone is (I know I wasn't despite being raised Catholic and baptized just like jakobnicholas). Therefore, the presupposition that faith is lost in all cases is erroneous. Believers always start with the premise that God exists and is a part of all of us and, in many cases, this also goes with the premise that your faith is the right faith. Understanding and tolerance of other faith and the lack of faith would be much easier to attain, IMO, if these prejudices were lost. When one puts forth that an atheist must have gone through a misfortune in order to arrive at their world view, can you see how that might be seen as insulting? It's really the same as when an atheist posits that believers must be stupid and deluding themselves. Both are offensive and incorrect.

 

I'm saying whatever view you have of life is learned behavior. How you read and react to the world around you. You are, it seems, echoing my points that we have behavioral responses. To some that includes faith.

 

No one is saying you start with a belief or faith in God. I reread his post. He spoke about his case and a few examples that he knows of. We are all different.

 

It is simply not true that "believers" start with a belief or faith in God. Most religions, in fact have a profession of faith, which is the result of study and exploration of the discipline to see if you agree, if you ascribe to it. Most people are there in the middle school years because of learned behavior from their family and faith community. But must catholic faiths you have to make that decision as an adult. People get to that faith from myriad directions. I've used the analogy of exploring faith being like the kid in the Family Circus cartoon, where he ends up going all over the neighborhood and finds what he was supposed to be not far from where he started.

 

If through time, your belief system changes, you can fall away -- through reason or emotion, "crisis of faith -- you "lose your religion." I didn't read ANYONE say anything about an athiest went through misfortune to "lose faith." I've known cases where people have come to that conclusion as much as from a reaction to the church as their own determinations on it -- that is what they said; not my judgment of what they did.

 

Indeed, both approaches are offensive and incorrect, and yet if you go back to your posts, you've taken that approach in many of yours, including this one -- in the demonstration of "eye for an eye."

 

Society sets itself up with a whole slew of dichotomies from which no one can hear the other side because they hear what they want to hear, raise their defenses or biases, seeking to reinforce them rather than hear the other side. You can wade through the active threads on here and see it.

 

The poll that was done was refreshing because, if you broke down the other among "organized faith" vs. "spirituality", there's an interesting spread on this board. It's places like this where there's great potential for dialogue of understanding. I appreciate your efforts to make your points; it helps us both to realize we bring our own biases into this and we need to keep forging communication.

[Panther]

Religion(s) are strange the idea of them is somewhat unsettling to me, what they

[Good Old Neon]

Religion(s) are strange the idea of them is somewhat unsettling to me, what they

[Panther]

well sorry I thought it made sense, could you be more specific or do you mean none of it makes sense to you like the sentences lol

[Party @ the Moontower]

I understand why people like Bill Maher feel the need to publicly make fun of the religious fanatics but Atheism is retarded. Sorry if I am offending any of you but Atheism is by far the dumbest religion ever. Atheism is simply the belief in nothing but that's all it is belief and these people actually have the guts to make fun of other peoples beliefs at least other religions are creative geeshhh. I suppose Atheist don't believe in the soul and that's fine but let me say this "you don't know nothing about my soul".

 

P.S I don't know anything (like all of us) in the grand scheme and I'm aware of that.

I am simply trying to work through denial and arrive some place better.

 

I don't think it Atheism is a religion, it's not having beliefs in gods. Beyond that, to be an atheists is like thinking in an open playground without rules.

 

I'm with you all the way on the P.S.

[Panther]

I totally understand that but over the last few decades I suppose, Atheism has become a religion of sorts there are Atheist camps for kids I

[jakobnicholas]

Sorry if I am offending any of you but Atheism is by far the dumbest religion ever.

 

 

 

Personally, I have never understood Atheism. I can understand someone not brought up in Christianity or religion or any higher power belief system to not believe in God or a god. But eventually, how does one not conclude that SOMETHING beyond our imagination or comprehension is over-seeing or looking upon everything?

 

 

Just the fact we exist and can see and can think and can care and taste the sweetness of a strawberry....NO WAY is that all an accident.

 

 

The thought of death being final...lights out...nothing....black.....I don't believe it.

 

 

Plus, I've always thought that infants or children who lose their life to an accident or disease got totally screwed. I've gotta believe they go somewhere to live life....or maybe they get to come back as Mick Jagger or someone who's got to live an amazing life.

[Party @ the Moontower]

I Atheism has become a religion of sorts there are Atheist camps for kids I'm sure their are T shirts

 

Having a camp and t-shirts=religion? I went to Girl Scout camp, and wore the t-shirt...even drank the kool-aid!

 

I get what your saying, but labels don't apply to this belief. That's what confuses the masses. People think for themselves. To each their own though. I believe people have the right to think what they want, just don't cram it down my throat. Help guide my soul, just don't try to own it.

[Moe_Syzlak]

There is clearly a divide in the atheist community (that sounds dumb) but if you call yourself an atheist or agnostic you are still being categorized in a very real way.

Again, this is where I have a hard time with the popular interpretation of the word "atheist." Folks like Dawkins surely hold some responsibility, but so too do people of faith who can't accept that a simple lack of a belief doesn't constitute an affront and an active disbelief. How would you (not specifically you, PANTHER, but the royal "you") feel if you were lumped in as sharing the same values as Fred Phelps just because you called yourself a Christian? Hardly seems fair or productive. As for why the labels? I don't require a label, but if asked what am I to say? Seems a little like "don't ask, don't tell" to me.

[Panther]

Again, this is where I have a hard time with the popular interpretation of the word "atheist." Folks like Dawkins surely hold some responsibility, but so too do people of faith who can't accept that a simple lack of a belief doesn't constitute an affront and an active disbelief. How would you (not specifically you, PANTHER, but the royal "you") feel if you were lumped in as sharing the same values as Fred Phelps just because you called yourself a Christian. Hardly seems fair or productive. As for why the labels? I don't require a label, but if asked what am I to say? Seems a little like "don't ask, don't tell" to me.

 

I agree that lumping Christians with Fred Phelps is just as bad as lumping atheist with Dawkins so I guesses you could say I was playing devils advocate with my statement.

But this sort of validates my point that you will be categorized as something that you may not be by claiming atheism so why bother it

[Moe_Syzlak]

So if all Christians were lumped with Phelps, they should just stop calling themselves Christians rather than try to correct the misperception?

[Panther]

No because christianity is already a religion so they just have to deal with it if they choose,

Atheism is apprently becoming a religion for some and is something else for others I was just saying what I would do.

Explaining the misconception is fine it accomplishes the same thing as saying what you think Im just saying whats the point why keep the lable why keep the word.

[Panther]

Having a camp and t-shirts=religion? I went to Girl Scout camp, and wore the t-shirt...even drank the kool-aid!

 

I get what your saying, but labels don't apply to this belief. That's what confuses the masses. People think for themselves. To each their own though. I believe people have the right to think what they want, just don't cram it down my throat. Help guide my soul, just don't try to own it.

 

"Help guide my soul, just don't try to own it." I really like that thought.

I didn't mean to be aggressive in defining atheism I

[Good Old Neon]

The thought of death being final...lights out...nothing....black.....I don't believe it.

 

I imagine death is sort of what it was like for the billions and billions of years in which you didn

[Panther]

I imagine death is sort of what it was like for the billions and billions of years in which you didn

[Panther]

I understand what your saying and clearly you hold the man in high regard it was probably not fair for me to use the words

[bjorn_skurj]

Just the fact we exist and can see and can think and can care and taste the sweetness of a strawberry....NO WAY is that all an accident.

 

It's not an accident. It is the product of billions of years of evolution as is, some theorize, our need to believe in supernatural forces.

 

[sweetheart-mine]

It's not an accident. It is the product of billions of years of evolution as is, some theorize, our need to believe in supernatural forces.

 

you read my mind with this reply, i kid you not. i came up with that response and planned to post it as soon as i finished reading. not the last part, but the rest of it.

 

you must be pre-psychic.