We're Financial Moguls!!!

[uncool2pillow]

Is this what was meant by "ownership society"!?!

Good one!

[uncool2pillow]

I don't know who's to blame for any of this. My sense is it's all of us. Our greed. Our shortsightedness. And the financial industry's lack of self-regulation. Giving us a loan they knew we couldn't pay back better than we ourselve's realized. Could more regulation have prevented this? It sounds like the experts think so, but did we really want the lawmakers to regulate us out of that nice, big 4-bedroom house in the nice school district?

 

Anyway... When I just checked the markets now, I thought, panic is really here. The dow down almost $1000 over 2 days. Oil going down, more than $10 in 2 days, then going up $6 today because people are selling their stock and buying commodities. Is this rational thinking or panic?

[remphish1]

If the government wanted to save billions of dollars they would have outlawed short selling! This is the easiest thing they could have done to prevent this huge bailouts. Shorts artificially drove down prices on these giants where they couldn't raise capital anymore. Anyhoo my questions is $85 billion for this bailout?! Where does this money come from? Isn't this like half the cost of the Iraq war and magically we have the money to bail them out when we are not in the greatest economic shape right now? I understand the impact an AIG failure would have but where do we have all this money?

 

 

I am quoting myself but wow maybe I should be on the SEC! Go me!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080919/ap_on_...c_short_selling

 

[Sir Stewart]

I thought of your post when I heard about that this morning. Well done.

[Guest Jules]

The rich and powerful pound the middle class and poor into the dirt yet again.

Is this a joke?

[austrya]

I'm middle class and I don't feel like I'm being pounded into the dirt.

 

But I can see why some middle class folks feel like they are. If you worked in an industry that isn't doing so hot and there were plant closings/lay offs, etc and you lost your home because you weren't able to make the mortgage payment.

 

I feel for people who, due to stuff beyond their control, are hurting.

 

I can't feel bad for someone who brought this on themselves due to greed and over spending.

[Guest Jules]

But I can see why some middle class folks feel like they are. If you worked in an industry that isn't doing so hot and there were plant closings/lay offs, etc and you lost your home because you weren't able to make the mortgage payment.

OK, but how is this "being pounded into the dirt by the rich and powerful".

[austrya]

OK, but how is this "being pounded into the dirt by the rich and powerful".

 

Because the rich and powerful are the ones still driving the nice cars and living in the nice homes and sending their kids to expensive schools. People just need someone to blame and it's always easier to blame someone better off than you.

 

Plus, I think a lot of people who are really hurting right now see the government bailing out the airlines, freddie/fannie, AIG, and probably the auto industry next, and feel that they aren't doing enough to help them (the general public) personally. They see it as "great, I have a shitty job because that's all that's available and now I have to pay extra taxes to help bail out the big guys"

 

I don't know.

[NightOfJoy]

OK, but how is this "being pounded into the dirt by the rich and powerful".

 

You are aware of the tremendous disparity between the rich and poor....the gap of which has grown even greater the last 8 years, right? The middle class has been shrinking and many of those left in the middle class are living paycheck to paycheck (you can count my family in that category-my wife and I have college degrees, have professional jobs and hold a low debt load--including zero $ owed to credit cards....and do not live an extraordinary lifestyle by any means). The poor and middle class have been taking it up the pipe for years-we're being taken advantage of in so many ways by those in power (read-rich) that I cant even begin to categorize it. Surely you are aware of all this. Those who make the rules always stack the deck in their favor. Some day the back of the middle class is going to break. I sure hope that me and my kids arent around to see it.

[Edie]

If I am correctly understanding the structure of the proposed bailout (and agency), this could actually end up being profitable for the taxpayers/government and eventually the income could help paydown the pre-existing debt. Think about it -- AIG or Fannie/Freddie selling for the pennies on the dollars that they were sold at would have been unheard of just 12 months ago. Eventually, home prices will rebound, which will more than fund these purchases.

 

Frankly, the situation has the free-market folks by the short and curlies and now they (and we) literally have to accept whatever terms come down.

[Winston Legthigh]

Those who make the rules always stack the deck in their favor. Some day the back of the middle class is going to break. I sure hope that me and my kids arent around to see it.

Funny thing about a democracy, is that WE make the rules. Surely you are aware of all this?

[NightOfJoy]

Funny thing about a democracy, is that WE make the rules. Surely you are aware of all this?

 

Funny, I dont recall being asked my opinion on unregulated swaps at any point over the last 10 years.

[mountain bed]

Funny thing about a democracy, is that WE make the rules. Surely you are aware of all this?

And the masters make the rules

For the wise men and the fools

But it's alright, Ma

[Winston Legthigh]

Funny, I dont recall being asked my opinion on unregulated swaps at any point over the last 10 years.

I guess you should write your congress(wo)man. DIY.

[NightOfJoy]

And the masters make the rules

For the wise men and the fools

But it's alright, Ma

 

[bjorn_skurj]

If I am correctly understanding the structure of the proposed bailout (and agency), this could actually end up being profitable for the taxpayers/government and eventually the income could help paydown the pre-existing debt. Think about it -- AIG or Fannie/Freddie selling for the pennies on the dollars that they were sold at would have been unheard of just 12 months ago. Eventually, home prices will rebound, which will more than fund these purchases.

 

Frankly, the situation has the free-market folks by the short and curlies and now they (and we) literally have to accept whatever terms come down.

I pray to God that these people get the living fuck regulated out of them, like FDR regulated them back in '33. Regulators, mount up!

[cryptique]

Funny thing about a democracy, is that WE make the rules. Surely you are aware of all this?

No, "we" really don't make the rules, and our "democracy" isn't especially democratic.

 

In any typical election, we get to choose between a Republican candidate who is beholden to powerful special interests, or a Democratic candidate who is beholden to powerful special interests. Third-party or independent candidates virtually never win elections that actually matter in terms of setting economic policy, so the electorate is nearly always left with a choice between two badly compromised candidates. Even if a candidate prevails who is not in the pocket of big business, that person will have little effect on policy, because most of that person's fellow legislators are taking their marching orders from the rich and powerful.

 

It's easy to pretend that in a "democracy," the people make the rules. The reality, in a "representative democracy," is quite different.

[EL the Famous]

OK, but how is this "being pounded into the dirt by the rich and powerful".

 

you know i'm no fan of that type of hyperbole, but i would agree that certain business practices by certain ceo's/management have helped to facilitate a greater financial disparity, to a benefit to them (arguably, both rich and powerful in this context) and the opposite to their employees. maybe not 'pounded in the dirt', but definitely feeling like they are spinning their wheels when cost of living is at a rate that years worth of raises barely keep up or don't even cover things.

 

i'm not saying that a ceo shouldn't make more than the guy in the cubicle or worker on the line, but i do believe there is a greater disparity between the two and that it's even more frustrating when the company isn't performing well, maybe even due to poor decisions at their level, some still make a staggering amount of cash while the rest of their employees are the ones penalized for it. plus, if said pratices were unethical...reap what you sew, man.

 

not that the case w/ my employeer of course.

[Winston Legthigh]

No, "we" really don't make the rules, and our "democracy" isn't especially democratic.

 

In any typical election, we get to choose between a Republican candidate who is beholden to powerful special interests, or a Democratic candidate who is beholden to powerful special interests. Third-party or independent candidates virtually never win elections that actually matter in terms of setting economic policy, so the electorate is nearly always left with a choice between two badly compromised candidates. Even if a candidate prevails who is not in the pocket of big business, that person will have little effect on policy, because most of that person's fellow legislators are taking their marching orders from the rich and powerful.

 

It's easy to pretend that in a "democracy," the people make the rules. The reality, in a "representative democracy," is quite different.

OK OK, without getting into the semantics of what "democracy" means, and also fully conceding to your statements above (after all, I *did* vote for Nader, twice...). I'm just saying that every citizen DOES have a voice in this country. I'm not as pessimistic as some, and not as optimistic as others. I realize and appreciate that opening doors (to those that can affect legislation) takes effort, time, skill, and certainly luck, if you're not coming from an established lobby group. But, I don't think those doors are closed, nor do I think the task impossible.

[cryptique]

I'm considerably more cynical than you are, then.

 

Don't get me wrong -- even though I'm not a Democrat (or a Republican), I will vote enthusiastically for Obama in this election, and I do harbor some hope that he really will insulate his administration from the special interests -- but down in the trenches where legislation is hashed out (i.e., Congress) the lobbyists still exert enormous influence, and we'll have to wait and see whether Obama (if elected) can stand up to them when it comes to sign or veto the legislation that they help write.

[Guest Jules]

The poor and middle class have been taking it up the pipe for years-we're being taken advantage of in so many ways by those in power (read-rich) that I cant even begin to categorize it.

Humor me.

[EL the Famous]

Humor me.

 

did you read my post?

[Guest Jules]

but i would agree that certain business practices by certain ceo's/management have helped to facilitate a greater financial disparity, to a benefit to them (arguably, both rich and powerful in this context) and the opposite to their employees. maybe not 'pounded in the dirt', but definitely feeling like they are spinning their wheels when cost of living is at a rate that years worth of raises barely keep up or don't even cover things.

Granted.

 

PaulB is doing the broad stroke thing, though.

[austrya]

Most of the middle class that lives paycheck to paycheck do it out of greed and overspending.

 

I'm not saying every case is like that, but I would guestimate that about 75% are.

 

People don't realize that they should have about 7-8 months worth of take home salary in the bank for an emergency, like losing your job. Well, they realize it but think it will never happen to them, so why not buy that plasma tv that they don't need. A vacation is more important than a savings account. I've been there, I know how it is.

 

Some friends of mine are taking the whole family on a cruise this winter. I was talking to her yesterday and she was saying how their car is starting to act up and they need to put about $600 worth of work into it but "we don't have that kind of money in the bank." Yet they see nothing wrong with spending over $5K on a family vacation as long as they can put it on a credit card.

[EL the Famous]

Granted. PaulB is doing the broad stroke thing, though.

 

i know, dude. i will say that we probably differ in our view on just how broad said stroke is. not all ceo's and/or rich folks are bad and trying to keep the middle class down...but some are.