Congrats to President-Elect OBAMA

[Sir Stewart]

OK how about this, how much is enough? Don't throw out an arbitrary 250K-income threshold. Just give me a number. Let's just say OK JUDE we think it's fair for you to pay a 7% property tax annually, 9% Minnesota State income tax, a 7% Minnesota Sales tax on everything you purchase (except some foods and clothing) and a 20% Federal Income Tax rate. Does that work?

 

Or am I simply being selfish because I may actually expect some sort of reward i.e. possibly a higher standard of living from putting forth a bit of extra effort and some work rather than being satisfied seeing a good portion of the fruits of my labors being taken and often times squandered?

 

Like I said - I'm kind of simple. I got lost once you used the '%' symbol.

[Moe_Syzlak]

OK how about this, how much is enough? Don't throw out an arbitrary 250K-income threshold. Just give me a number. Let's just say OK JUDE we think it's fair for you to pay a 7% property tax annually, 9% Minnesota State income tax, a 7% Minnesota Sales tax on everything you purchase (except some foods and clothing) and a 20% Federal Income Tax rate. Does that work?

 

Or am I simply being selfish because I may actually expect some sort of reward i.e. possibly a higher standard of living from putting forth a bit of extra effort and some work rather than being satisfied seeing a good portion of the fruits of my labors being taken and often times squandered?

You ARE going to see a higher standard of living. The idea that you should simply work less because it will all be taken by the govt if you work harder is just simply not true. Talk about overly simplistic. Also, it's interesting to note that by county, those that typically vote red are overwhelmingly the beneficiaries of government spending, while those that vote blue typically are the ones who feed the coffers.

[JUDE]

Like I said - I'm kind of simple. I got lost once you used the '%' symbol.

 

Dude, I

[Central Scrutinizer]

Or am I simply being selfish because I may actually expect some sort of reward i.e. possibly a higher standard of living from putting forth a bit of extra effort and some work rather than being satisfied seeing a good portion of the fruits of my labors being taken and often times squandered?

Or are you saying that your extra effort, because it resulted in more scratch, is worth more than someone who works hard (harder, longer more physicially), but due to his position in life -- through no fault of his own -- he can not expect to benefit from his attempts to provide for his family?

[Moe_Syzlak]

Dude, I’m not trying to bash you I just get a feel that around here if you question the use of tax dollars you are just a selfish right-wing-war-mongering-neocon. That is far from the case, I just want to know where I cross the line from doing the right thing and paying my part to keep the countries infrastructure going and cross over into being fleeced territory.

I question how are tax dollars are spent too. But that's not what you typically do. You just complain about the taxes in the first place.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Dude, I’m not trying to bash you I just get a feel that around here if you question the use of tax dollars you are just a selfish right-wing-war-mongering-neocon. That is far from the case, I just want to know where I cross the line from doing the right thing and paying my part to keep the countries infrastructure going and cross over into being fleeced territory.

Are you question specific use of tax dollars or merely continuing the fallacy that tax dollars = waste.

 

Certainly, both candidates have said they'll cut unnecessary spending. After an extra $9 trillion in debt, the party currently in the high office hasn't shown they're the answer to federal spending.

[Sir Stewart]

Dude, I'm not trying to bash you I just get a feel that around here if you question the use of tax dollars you are just a selfish right-wing-war-mongering-neocon. That is far from the case, I just want to know where I cross the line from doing the right thing and paying my part to keep the countries infrastructure going and cross over into being fleeced territory.

My original question is based on the general "taxes are bad" philosophy I hear so much of from the right. Overly simplistic people like Palin feed on it.

[JUDE]

You ARE going to see a higher standard of living. The idea that you should simply work less because it will all be taken by the govt if you work harder is just simply not true. Talk about overly simplistic. Also, it's interesting to note that by county, those that typically vote red are overwhelmingly the beneficiaries of government spending, while those that vote blue typically are the ones who feed the coffers.

 

 

Have you ever heard of the point of diminishing returns? Also, you didn

[bjorn_skurj]

I have to wonder - when people say they want to choose how to spend the money they've worked so hard for instead of the government taking it, are they envisioning some sort of system where you write checks once a year labeled "My Town's Roads and Infrastructure" and stuff like that?

Yeah. No kidding. Even Horatio Alger did not succeed in a vacuum. If there was not an orderly society with roads and water systems and such, Joe the Plumber would be pretty well fucked, wouldn't he?

[Spawn's dad]

Certainly, both candidates have said they'll cut unnecessary spending.

 

right, and I call bullshit. until someone actually does it it's

we have a gubment that's driven on pork and unnecessary spending.

so maybe Obama comes in and changes things, but until it happens

I think we all have a right to be skeptical.

[JUDE]

I question how are tax dollars are spent too. But that's not what you typically do. You just complain about the taxes in the first place.

 

Examples please of me doing the typical all taxes are bad stump speech.

 

Are you question specific use of tax dollars or merely continuing the fallacy that tax dollars = waste.

 

Certainly, both candidates have said they'll cut unnecessary spending. After an extra $9 trillion in debt, the party currently in the high office hasn't shown they're the answer to federal spending.

 

Please provide examples of my touting the benefits of a McCain presidency over Obama in regards to spending.

[bleedorange]

My original question is based on the general "taxes are bad" philosophy I hear so much of from the right. Overly simplistic people like Palin feed on it.

 

Since campaigning is nothing more than sound bites and 30-second ads, overly simplistic phrases are pretty much the order of the day. I know that when I argue about increasing tax rates it doesn't stem from the notion that all taxes are evil or unnecessary. I'm not an anarchist.

 

But, no, philosophically, I don't think my rates should be increased and then have the government turn around and write a check to someone else who pays little to no tax in the form of a "tax refund."

 

We have in place in this country plenty of subsistence/need programs for people who need the help. Yet with an influx of immigrants, both legal and illegal, these programs never seem to be enough. So we're told we need to sacrifice and provide more for these people. Well, I have to admit, at a certain point, I have to start looking out for myself and my family. It is not a desire of mine to see everyone in the same boat. I want the opportunity to improve life for myself. I also don't believe that life and economics is a zero-sum game.

 

I guess that just makes me a selfish conservative.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Examples please of me doing the typical all taxes are bad stump speech.

Well that's what it seems like right now and apparently, from others' responses, I'm not the only one who thinks so. If that's not what your issue is, I don't understand your point. You seem to be saying taxes are unfair and I don't want to pay them for things I don't care about (i.e. children apparently). That, to me, is overly simplistic. There are plenty of things that I wish my tax dollars didn't go to, but to many these are essential programs. Sure government is wasteful, but when we reduce government revenue, we don't see tighter budgets, we see larger deficits. So, until you can provide a reasonable and realistic solution rather than just "government should both tax and spend less" than it will just seem like you are bitching about your taxes. As if ANYONE loves paying taxes!

[quarter23cd]

And the unborn are at the head of that list.

Many, many, many people believe stongly in the sanctity of life. And it scares many people that someone like Obama (with the help of a Democratic congress) can pass bills that will basically allow abortions to be anywhere, at anytime for anyone without any questions asked.

The thing is, on the left-leaning side of this question, I've encountered very few people who really, really like abortion and think we should keep it around because it is great fun for everybody involved. It is not. I would love to see the number of abortions go way, way down--due to being mostly unnecessary. From a philosophical standpoint, my problems with the anti-abortion groups lie mostly with the ones who work to limit eduction and and/or access to contraceptives. Talk about exacerbating the problem!

[JUDE]

Well that's what it seems like right now and apparently, from others' responses, I'm not the only one who thinks so. If that's not what your issue is, I don't understand your point. You seem to be saying taxes are unfair and I don't want to pay them for things I don't care about (i.e. children apparently). That, to me, is overly simplistic. There are plenty of things that I wish my tax dollars didn't go to, but to many these are essential programs. Sure government is wasteful, but when we reduce government revenue, we don't see tighter budgets, we see larger deficits. So, until you can provide a reasonable and realistic solution rather than just "government should both tax and spend less" than it will just seem like you are bitching about your taxes. As if ANYONE loves paying taxes![/quote]

 

Do you have a number for me yet?

[LouieB]

The Bush administration never wasted a single taxpayer dollar, not a one....neither would a McCain administration.....only an Obama administration will waste money or take more in taxes than they need.....

 

 

LouieB

[JUDE]

The Bush administration never wasted a single taxpayer dollar, not a one....neither would a McCain administration.....only an Obama administration will waste money or take more in taxes than they need.....

 

 

LouieB

 

Finally, someone get's it.

[NightOfJoy]

Very cool. Congrats.

 

I found out later this morning that four other people in my office got tix too.

 

 

This is gonna be GREAT!

 

[bjorn_skurj]

I agree 100 percent.

 

 

And the unborn are at the head of that list.

 

 

 

Many, many, many people believe stongly in the sanctity of life. And it scares many people that someone like Obama (with the help of a Democratic congress) can pass bills that will basically allow abortions to be anywhere, at anytime for anyone without any questions asked.

 

 

Yeah, many other issues are important. But ask the Catholic church what IT'S number one crisis is. The answer will be a moral crisis....namely the rights of the unborn.

 

 

 

(Contiune your thrashing of relgious nuts)

I believe in the sanctity of life too, but I place the sanctity of a potential human being a step below the sanctity of a woman's right to control her own destiny.

[Sir Stewart]

I found out later this morning that four other people in my office got tix too.

 

 

This is gonna be GREAT!

 

 

Was this from the random drawing on the Obama site?

[bleedorange]

The Bush administration never wasted a single taxpayer dollar, not a one....neither would a McCain administration.....only an Obama administration will waste money or take more in taxes than they need.....

 

 

LouieB

 

Nobody is saying that. In fact, the Bush administration has been terribly wasteful and has spent way too much. Bush is a Republican, but in the economic sense, he's no conservative.

 

Of course, no one on the GOP or Democratic ticket is.

[Moe_Syzlak]

]

 

Do you have a number for me yet?

Why are you so fixated on a number? I have no idea. We are in a hole and we need revenue. Do you have a list of specific programs that can be cut that add up to a reduction in spending that will eliminate our deficit without raising taxes?

[MattZ]

Do you have a number for me yet?

 

35% federal income tax

10% local tax

20% capital gains tax/dividend tax

 

EDIT: and how about 8 3/4 sales tax.

[JUDE]

Why are you so fixated on a number? I have no idea. We are in a hole and we need revenue. Do you have a list of specific programs that can be cut that add up to a reduction in spending that will eliminate our deficit without raising taxes?

 

I'm fixated on a number so I can figure out how much I need to pay so I can live my life without being a "bad guy" who doesn't want to do the right thing because he questions the system. It also helps for budgeting purposes since taxes supersede everything else.

 

 

 

35% federal income tax

10% local tax

20% capital gains tax/dividend tax

 

EDIT: and how about 8 3/4 sales tax.

 

So you think a combine rate of 65% is reasonable?

[NightOfJoy]

Was this from the random drawing on the Obama site?

 

Someone I know forwarded an application email to me from Obama's campaign (I posted here right after I got it). I thought that since I volunteered for him, it was worth a shot. Color me surprised that I actually was awarded some. I suppose this means that O isnt holding it against me for voting Libertarian in the 90s. I admit to having some trepidation.....if the mood is sour (meaning the projections arent going the way we want), I'll be not attending. My days of civil disobedience are o-vah!