Hold on just one damn minute...

[MattZ]

while affirmative action itself may not be racist, it most certainly opens the door for an arguably discriminatory decision to be made based on race.

 

Of course. I meant the affirmative action curveball as (potential) evidence for the point that not every single race-based decision is racist on its face (no pun intended). Bobbob seemed to be suggesting that any race-based decision was inappropriate out of hand. I certainly agree that affirmative action opens a door to possible problems.

[EL the Famous]

yea right....let's drop him at 75th and Jeffery or 43rd and King or Chatham or Roseland....

 

= 'BLACKER THAN YOU, DUDE.' whatever.

[LouieB]

i don't agree at all that the conversation in and of itself is ridiculous, but the fact that it's going in circles because nobody wants to really hear what the other is saying is. lou, i do see the difference...but that isn't what i or bobob is arguing.

 

i keep responding because, again, i do take someone inferring that i'm racist or even racially insensitive and/or out of touch w/ regards to race as insulting. 'you had to be there'? no, no i don't...because i'm HERE and, while i'm respectful or the perspective it's provides and a big proponent of not losing sight of history so you don't repeat it's mistakes, i'm just trying to focus on the NOW.

 

that said, it really has become ridiculous and tiring and disheartening. so, move on at will...after I take Matt's curveball and say:

 

i don't know about bobob, but yes...I do. racism is defined as: 'the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others' and/or 'discrimination or prejudice based on race.' actually, while affirmative action itself may not be racist, it most certainly opens the door for an arguably discriminatory decision to be made based on race.

 

 

 

lou, is your chicago/black person more authentic than the black guys bobob already stated he hangs out with? kind of like sarah palin's 'real america'? as i do live in the chicagoland area and my black friends were raised in the area, do i get a pass from 'uncle lou's tour of real blackness'? c'mon, that was right after saying you weren't 'talking down' to him.

Aw come on now....when we zeroed in on the racism issue he switched over to class. That's not right and no I am NOT insulting you, but fess up......aren't your african american coworkers damn proud of Barack?

 

And no he doesn't have to come here, but Chicago is a pretty damn interesting place isn't it? I know they have non-whites in FLA, so all he needs to do is go talk to them.

 

Afirmative action is not racist....period.....not if it is done correctly.

 

Likewise my joke about dropping him on the southside is also a joke, and my attempts to lighten this convo up a bit are clearly now falling on deaf ears.....someone else is going to have to pick this up. If people want to beleve that voting for Barack because he is (partiatially) black and a sizable (if not exclusive) reason for voting for him is racist; so it goes. The above dictionary definition should clear up that it isn't, but then again we can argue about that the rest of the day too.

 

LouieB

[MattZ]

Oh, and um, apparently the stock market didn't get the Obama memo about hope and change.

[John Smith]

 

I think my point is that maybe this discussion is pointless. If blacks voted for Obama 96% then they might possibly be racist for doing so, but if whites voted for him then they too must be racist for voting for him because he is black, blah blah blah. What

[John Smith]

Oh, and um, apparently the stock market didn't get the Obama memo about hope and change.

 

Neither did the economy and the stats that have been released recently (maybe today and yesterday) about missing earnings projection and UC claims riising to levels not seen since 1983 etc... The markets react to far more than just a feel goood vibe of hope.

[EL the Famous]

Of course. I meant the affirmative action curveball as (potential) evidence for the point that not every single race-based decision is racist on its face (no pun intended). Bobbob seemed to be suggesting that any race-based decision was inappropriate out of hand. I certainly agree that affirmative action opens a door to possible problems.

 

absolutely. maybe i'm missing something...what he's saying (and what i'm agreeing w/) is that any decision made solely on account of race, regardless of the intent, is (by the actual definition) racist. if that isn't what he's saying, then i tap out.

 

aren't your african american coworkers damn proud of Barack?

 

sure they are and so am i. and, yes, i'm sure that is in part of the fact that's he's black, for both of us. albeit, they may have it as a higher (but not sole) reason for their enthusiasm. i remember both mick and mason, to use him as an a example again, saying keyes was crazy and that they'd even 'vote for ditka or the other kinky dude' over him if he was the opposing candidate...again, it's a question of priority not exclusvitiy either direction.

 

Chicago IS a pretty damn interesting place and, i'm sure, there are just as interesting places in certain areas of, well, Miami for example where neither you OR bobob probably want to have a 'black-off' to see which area is more authentic. really, i have no idea where you are even going with that.

[gogo]

Just two quick things, other than this I'm not going near this conversation:

 

One of my friend's Barb's comments on canvassing in Ohio:

 

And there was the time I knocked on a door and a very nice African American man answered the door and told me he hadn't made up his mind yet. WHAT????? But I came to understand. He needed to know more. It was just as insulting for me to expect him to vote for Obama because they were both black men as it is to expect me to vote for Palin because we both have a set of tits. Although I think mine are better.

 

And, Lou mentioned Harold Washington above. This American Life did a piece on him just about a year ago. If you haven't heard it already, I highly recommend it. It's amazing how far we've come in 20 years.

[John Smith]

Also I would like to add that I was very pleased with Elisabeth Hasselbeck for her humble seemingly honest statment about acceptign the Obama presidency. She was so angry and unhinged right up until the election. Is she being honest? Only time will tell, but she seemed sincere to me.

[myboyblue]

Also I would like to add that I was very pleased with Elisabeth Hasselbeck for her humble seemingly honest statment about acceptign the Obama presidency. She was so angry and unhinged right up until the election. Is she being honest? Only time will tell, but she seemed sincere to me.

I NEED Elisabeth to be comfortable with this.

[Winston Legthigh]

what he's saying (and what i'm agreeing w/) is that any decision made solely on account of race, regardless of the intent, is (by the actual definition) racist.

 

Don't you think this definition of racism is a little too wide? To me it's like calling a hetero male sexist because he only likes fucking women.

[John Smith]

I NEED Elisabeth to be comfortable with this.

 

I know she's a joke, but she does have some pull with a lot of people, at elast she did until her antics regarding the election.

[MattZ]

Don't you think this definition of racism is a little too wide? To me it's like calling a hetero male sexist because he only likes fucking women.

 

I think it's too wide. Although it's probably more like claiming that desegregating buses in the south is racist against white people because they had fewer places to sit. Not every race-based action is racist.

[OOO]

I am going to go ahead and out myself as a locationist. I found Barack's candidacy slightly more appealing because he's a senator from my state.

 

 

That was hard but I'm glad I said it.

[Spawn's dad]

Holy cow. Step away from the interweb and look what you miss

[cryptique]

Holy cow. Step away from the interweb and look what you miss

I wish I'd missed it.

[EL the Famous]

I wish I'd missed it.

 

before or after you posted in the middle of it?

 

eh, whatever, on the topic of race...and i saw only one person mention it, what about this:

 

 

[aricandover]

before or after you posted in the middle of it?

 

eh, whatever, on the topic of race...and i saw only one person mention it, what about this:

 

 

 

 

nader, please.

 

thank you, Rev. Sharpton.

[MattZ]

By definition, acting to help one race is acting to hurt another race, no? I think it's interesting to consider the implications of that, and whether it's racist or not. I just happen to think that not every race-based action is racist. I am very well prepared to shut up if others don't want to discuss it anymore.

 

nader, please.

 

x2

[cryptique]

before or after you posted in the middle of it?

Before. I should have ducked out of this thread as soon as the election was called for Obama.

 

I posted once since the latest fight began (several pages ago) but typed up a handful of posts since then that I didn't submit. I'm not wading into it any further than I (ill-advisedly) already have.

 

nader, please.

I mentioned that, but no one seemed to care.

[jakobnicholas]

Interesting (paraphrased) quotes from Jon Meacham and Evan Thomas of Newsweek on Charlie Rose, talking about Obama:

 

 

"He's very elusive."

 

"Obama came out with his family and kids. And then they went back off stage. Have you ever seen a victory speech by a President with noone but the candidate. All by himself."

 

"There's a slightly creep cult of personality. He's so singular...he's a deeply manipulative guy....manages his own spectacle."

 

"He stands back and soaks in the moment. He watches us watching him."

 

"He's self-aware enough to know that this creature he's designed isn't a real person."

[Winston Legthigh]

By definition, acting to help one race is acting to hurt another race, no?

No.

 

Members of Race A don't have the same rights as members of Race B.

Laws are passed that grant members of Race A the same rights as members of Race B.

 

This law helped Race A by giving them new rights, but didn't take away any rights from (thereby hurting) Race B.

[EL the Famous]

thank you, Rev. Sharpton.

 

touche. actually, not really. i'm not 'outraged' by it it at all or think he should be banned from the airwaves, but what an egotistical idiot.

 

By definition, acting to help one race is acting to hurt another race, no? I think it's interesting to consider the implications of that, and whether it's racist or not. I just happen to think that not every race-based action is racist. I am very well prepared to shut up if others don't want to discuss it anymore.

 

mmmm, not really or maybe i don't see it in realtion to affirmative action. or, in a larger sense, if helping said race is done at the expense of another that it isn't racist. or something.

 

i'll agree w/ you that not every race-based action is negatively racist, but...if said action is based solely on race...how can it not be racist? i think the issue is the intent/and or degree you place behind the word.

[OOO]

No.

 

Members of Race A don't have the same rights as members of Race B.

Laws are passed that grant members of Race A the same rights as members of Race B.

 

This law helped Race A by giving them new rights, but didn't take away any rights from (thereby hurting) Race B.

 

You should have explained this concept to people who voted for Proposition 8 in California.

[MattZ]

No.

 

Members of Race A don't have the same rights as members of Race B.

Laws are passed that grant members of Race A the same rights as members of Race B.

 

This law helped Race A by giving them new rights, but didn't take away any rights from (thereby hurting) Race B.

 

Look, clearly this discussion isn't worth continuing. Not sure why -- I think on the whole it's been interesting and respectful. I do think that members of Race B in your example (historically) have argued that they are being harmed. As I mentioned earlier -- see affirmative action as an example. Many white people believe that affirmative action is racist. I just don't agree with it.