MattZ Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 So, the thread on jeff's guitars and my love of the old-martin sound got me surfing around on ebay. I am not in the market for a pre-war martin, and I won't be for a long time (if ever), but I saw some interesting guitars for sale, and it got me thinking. As a general matter, when cracks are repaired, does the guitar sound any differently? I guess the answer is going to be, depends where the crack is, and depends how good the work was? I ask because some of these guitars with minor repairs seem to be a fraction of the price. And if the difference in sound is minimal, that's all I care about. What are other things to look out for? Neck resets? Etc? Just seemed like something I need to learn some more about. Obviously, it's always going to be better to get your guitar from the store down the street, so that you can hold it and play it first, and I am lucky that I live in NYC where there are stores everywhere. But you pay a premium to buy from a store (obviously). If there's a silver lining to a recession and me worrying about losing my job, it may be that people sitting on old guitars that need cash, may be looking to sell. I wonder if there will be some deals out there in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stagerug Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I can help with this one a little, I think. I purchased myself a lovely Christmas present this year. I bought a Martin HD-28 from my local shop. They had two there. One in mint condition for like $2500 or something like that...and the other with a hairline crack from the middle/bottom of the bridge to the base of the guitar (from what I understand is the most common place for a humidity-related crack) that had been repaired, but not a real pro job. This guitar was selling for $1199.00...which I thought was crazy, and the guitar must not sound very good. I spent hours in there playing both guitars...I even brought my wife in to listen, and nobody could tell the difference. So I bought the cracked model, and had it re-repaired and set up by Martin-approved repairman for $100 (they actually use superglue and sand a buff it until it shines like new) and I ended up with a heck of a deal. Now, it does have a slight grey line where the crack is, but if you didn't know it was there, you'd never notice it unless you knew guitars. I play it almost exclusively...and it still sounds and plays great. I just make sure I manage the humidity properly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 When I shop vintage guitars I look for the following: 1. Original finish? If not it cuts the value in half.2. Cracked headstock or heel? Deal killer in my book.3. Original bridge plate?4. Oversized bridge replacement. I don't worry too much about neck sets, loose braces, replaced tuners, nuts, or saddles or divoted fret boards. All of these things go along with old guitars that have been played and they can all be easily fixed/returned to original spec. Cracks are gonna happen; as long as they are repaired correctly and are stable they are a non-issue to me. The important thing is how the guitar sounds. You can't replicate 70 years of aging. Lance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I even brought my wife in to listen, and nobody could tell the difference. So I bought the cracked model, and had it re-repaired and set up by Martin-approved repairman for $100 (they actually use superglue and sand a buff it until it shines like new) I was going to mention something about superglue before I read that. One of my old bandmates had a vintage acoustic guitar (a Kay, or Silvertone, or some other lower-end vintage archtop instrument) that had the neck re-set. The repair was done by an inexperienced repairman, who used superglue and set the neck slightly out of whack, which made accurate tuning impossible. Some time later the guitar was taken to a real guitar repair shop where my friend was informed that the guitar would probably not be able to withstand the heat required to undo the superglue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stagerug Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I was going to mention something about superglue before I read that. One of my old bandmates had a vintage acoustic guitar (a Kay, or Silvertone, or some other lower-end vintage archtop instrument) that had the neck re-set. The repair was done by an inexperienced repairman, who used superglue and set the neck slightly out of whack, which made accurate tuning impossible. Some time later the guitar was taken to a real guitar repair shop where my friend was informed that the guitar would probably not be able to withstand the heat required to undo the superglue. Yeah, I can't accurately speak to the setting of a neck, but you're probably right...that doesn't sound like the right solution to me either. Some sort of specialty wood glue would probably be what a luthier would use. But when it comes to repairing slight cracks in the top of vintage instruments that is what Martin suggests. This was a Martin-approved guitar repairman. He is only one of two guys in the entire state of Illinois Martin endorses. And he job he did on HD-28 is top notch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Golden Smoghead Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Anybody recommend any luthiers in the greater DC area? I have a 1961 Gibson Les Paul my uncle played on the Opry back in the 60s that has been mistreated. I think the big thing it needs is actually just a new set of tuners, but I'm pretty afraid of the wood condition / don't really feel comfortable swapping them out myself. I think I'm afraid the wood will all just disintegrate in my hands as soon as I lay a wrench on this sucker. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanman Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 When I shop vintage guitars I look for the following: 1. Original finish? If not it cuts the value in half.2. Cracked headstock or heel? Deal killer in my book.3. Original bridge plate?4. Oversized bridge replacement. I don't worry too much about neck sets, loose braces, replaced tuners, nuts, or saddles or divoted fret boards. All of these things go along with old guitars that have been played and they can all be easily fixed/returned to original spec. Cracks are gonna happen; as long as they are repaired correctly and are stable they are a non-issue to me. The important thing is how the guitar sounds. You can't replicate 70 years of aging. LanceI would care a bit more about the oringinal tunres than say a bridge plate, these things wear out all the time. There are ways to fill and redrill, that is a more common job then say regluing loose braces. Original finish does not mean non repaired, just original and maintained. Your dead on with the headstock...........Deal Killer! The bridge, well yes and no....that's a long discussion. NO EBAY KIDS..................PLAY BEFORE YOU BUY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanman Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Anybody recommend any luthiers in the greater DC area?Not too sure about DC but I do know for sure the the northeast has some mighty fine luthiers. The tuners a simple job but I respect a man that bows out for the sake of the instrument. I'll do it for you, but the shipping will double the price of the job. Is New York too far, great luthiers around those parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I would care a bit more about the oringinal tunres than say a bridge plate, these things wear out all the time. There are ways to fill and redrill, that is a more common job then say regluing loose braces. Original finish does not mean non repaired, just original and maintained. Your dead on with the headstock...........Deal Killer! The bridge, well yes and no....that's a long discussion. NO EBAY KIDS..................PLAY BEFORE YOU BUY Bridge plate replacement means someone (not always a qualified someone) is messing around with the structure of the guitar in an area one cannot readily see; especially with pre-war Martins where the bridge plate is underneath the x-brace. Very scary considering the amount of money pre-war Martins command these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
In a little rowboat Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 id say oceanman and lance pretty much covered what id have said...a word on glue...repairs should be done with titebond or hideglue only...in extreme cases epoxy is used but only as a lifesaving last resort, superglue only to attach a new nut...also, i regard to repairs, any reglue must remove the original glue first, any other repair is not acceptable, as glue does not bond to old glue, heat or not... Structural repairs impact the sound of the guitar of course (loose braces, lifting bridge, neck reset) but crack repairs if done correctly generally dont impact or change the sound much...also a neck reset in some circles is a required and accepted process in the life of the instrument...im a lot more afraid of bridgeplate concerns than a neck issue...also, a snapped headstock can be repaired in a fashion to actually make the joint stronger than the pre injury condition, although i stay away from these instruments j Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 superglue only to attach a new nut... Maybe this is a dumb question, but why is superglue ok for attaching a new nut? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I don't even glue my own nuts on anymore, I will glue yours though. I use white glue on anything I can and won't touch a guitar if it doesn't need it. I like to add a thin maple strip with white glue over the existing bridge plate,or a little tape under the existing holes and epoxy/redrill does a fine job. Doll rods work wonders if drilled right. Replace it if nothing else works, but that pad has to be really f'ded up. Last bridge replacement I did was a shitty Washburn, the original was epoxied and had two doll rods on either side through the top,WTF......... a little check or two, but still pleased...why Washburn,Why? That bridge got bigger! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 If you're going to buy online, buy from a dealer with their own website. Real, high-end stores that know what they're doing know how to run a website. Go to a high-end vintage dealer and talk - don't even look at the inventory, just talk - to a luthier about your budget and what you're looking for. They'll let you know what you can reasonably expect, and then with that in mind you can go shopping. If you're not prepared to spend 5-6 figures, you're not going to get a pre-war anything without cracks, re-sets, re-frets, etc. Do you want a collector or do you want something you play? My guitar has a small crack that totally reduces the value but its effect on the sound is negligible. Willie's is a place down the road from me where I picked up my 1967 Gibson. They had a $100k+ pre-war Martin on their site for a long time; the week Wilco went through it sold, and the next week Jeff appeared on stage with a new pre-war Martin. In the audio commentary for IATTBYH, Jeff talks about how he's playing a Firebird(?) he just picked up at Willie's. GREAT store. Totally rude to women, but GREAT store. Poke around, check the prices and descriptions, and that might help give you an idea. Reading how good sellers describe their sales lets you know what to look for in a dealer and an instrument. They haven't had any six-figure Martins for a while, but they have a Les Paul that's going for quite a bundle now... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
In a little rowboat Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 If you're going to buy online, buy from a dealer with their own website. Real, high-end stores that know what they're doing know how to run a website. Go to a high-end vintage dealer and talk - don't even look at the inventory, just talk - to a luthier about your budget and what you're looking for. They'll let you know what you can reasonably expect, and then with that in mind you can go shopping. If you're not prepared to spend 5-6 figures, you're not going to get a pre-war anything without cracks, re-sets, re-frets, etc. Do you want a collector or do you want something you play? My guitar has a small crack that totally reduces the value but its effect on the sound is negligible. Willie's is a place down the road from me where I picked up my 1967 Gibson. Great stock...ridiculously overpriced...a shame... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Willie's is a place down the road from me where I picked up my 1967 Gibson. They had a $100k+ pre-war Martin on their site for a long time; the week Wilco went through it sold, and the next week Jeff appeared on stage with a new pre-war Martin. In the audio commentary for IATTBYH, Jeff talks about how he's playing a Firebird(?) he just picked up at Willie's. GREAT store. Totally rude to women, but GREAT store. Poke around, check the prices and descriptions, and that might help give you an idea. Reading how good sellers describe their sales lets you know what to look for in a dealer and an instrument. They haven't had any six-figure Martins for a while, but they have a Les Paul that's going for quite a bundle now... I think you just killed my evening posting that link up. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyjimmy Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I like Wille's and have done some business w/them. Wanna swoon over vintage gear? Look here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I like Wille's and have done some business w/them. Wanna swoon over vintage gear? Look here. Damn, some of those vintage instruments are cheaper than a new run-of-the-mill Gibson. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Golden Smoghead Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I don't even glue my own nuts on anymore, I will glue yours though.O-man you are nothing but an awesome dude. But this is a funny-ass thing to put on a forum amigo! hahahaha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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