Torture memos released

[Beltmann]

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

There are so many things wrong with this, that I just don

[Edie]

As a Christian, I object to torture on moral grounds. Still, as a citizen my main objection is primarily pragmatic: There is no evidence that suggests torture makes us safer; in fact, much research shows it actually makes us less safe, by poisoning our intelligence with false information, by emboldening our enemies, and by reducing our international clout.

 

As usual, in two sentences you have summed it up precisely.

 

Knowing that our country has tortured makes me more than uncomfortable -- like a gun turret that is currently pointed at people we consider to be our "enemy". How long before we become "the enemy" and the turret is pointed at us? Our civil rights are something we need to protect fiercely, but torture is never the way to do it.

 

I can understand that Obama wants to move on; his agenda is brimming with things that need our attention desperately. However, the people that authorized illegal acts should have the full weight of the law brought to bear. It will be a bigger distraction if Obama doesn't.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

As usual, in two sentences you have summed it up precisely.

 

Knowing that our country has tortured makes me more than uncomfortable -- like a gun turret that is currently pointed at people we consider to be our "enemy". How long before we become "the enemy" and the turret is pointed at us? Our civil rights are something we need to protect fiercely, but torture is never the way to do it.

 

I can understand that Obama wants to move on; his agenda is brimming with things that need our attention desperately. However, the people that authorized illegal acts should have the full weight of the law brought to bear. It will be a bigger distraction if Obama doesn't.

 

 

The time for moralizing, hand wringing and retribution will come after the threat is over.

[caliber66]

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[OOO]

This is not necessarily 100% relevant, but I watch the show 24, and it's really easy to watch that show and get angry at people who want criminals/terrorists to have due process. There are a bunch of times on the show when Jack isn't able to torture someone and terrorists are able to get away with there plan and/or Jack tortures someone and uses that information to win the day.

 

"THERE'S NO TIME, MR. PRESIDENT!!! IF I DON'T DO THIS RIGHT NOW, INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE GOING TO DIE!"

 

Anyway, I'm able to separate that show from reality, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people are less against torture because it generally seems to work on the show.

[Beltmann]

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[Hixter]

The Golden Rule is fine with me when it comes to rules and conventions on the battlefield. Wear a uniform, carry your weapon in the open, avoid harming civilians as much as possible and treat prisoners humanely and we'll do likewise. Play dirty and we might play a little dirty too. Seems fair to me.

[OOO]

That is an eye for an eye, which is not the Golden Rule. At all.

[Beltmann]

The Golden Rule is fine with me when it comes to rules and conventions on the battlefield. Wear a uniform, carry your weapon in the open, avoid harming civilians as much as possible and treat prisoners humanely and we'll do likewise. Play dirty and we might play a little dirty too. Seems fair to me.

Allow me to quote Captain Ian Fishback [bold is mine], who wrote the following to Senator John McCain:

 

"I am a graduate of West Point currently serving as a Captain in the U.S. Army Infantry. I have served two combat tours with the 82nd Airborne Division, one each in Afghanistan and Iraq. While I served in the Global War on Terror, the actions and statements of my leadership led me to believe that United States policy did not require application of the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan or Iraq. On 7 May 2004, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's testimony that the United States followed the Geneva Conventions in Iraq and the "spirit" of the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan prompted me to begin an approach for clarification. For 17 months, I tried to determine what specific standards governed the treatment of detainees by consulting my chain of command through battalion commander, multiple JAG lawyers, multiple Democrat and Republican Congressmen and their aides, the Ft. Bragg Inspector General's office, multiple government reports, the Secretary of the Army and multiple general officers, a professional interrogator at Guantanamo Bay, the deputy head of the department at West Point responsible for teaching Just War Theory and Law of Land Warfare, and numerous peers who I regard as honorable and intelligent men.

 

"Instead of resolving my concerns, the approach for clarification process leaves me deeply troubled. Despite my efforts, I have been unable to get clear, consistent answers from my leadership about what constitutes lawful and humane treatment of detainees. I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment. I and troops under my command witnessed some of these abuses in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

"This is a tragedy. I can remember, as a cadet at West Point, resolving to ensure that my men would never commit a dishonorable act; that I would protect them from that type of burden. It absolutely breaks my heart that I have failed some of them in this regard.

 

"That is in the past and there is nothing we can do about it now. But, we can learn from our mistakes and ensure that this does not happen again. Take a major step in that direction; eliminate the confusion. My approach for clarification provides clear evidence that confusion over standards was a major contributor to the prisoner abuse. We owe our soldiers better than this. Give them a clear standard that is in accordance with the bedrock principles of our nation.

 

"Some do not see the need for this work. Some argue that since our actions are not as horrifying as Al Qaeda's, we should not be concerned. When did Al Qaeda become any type of standard by which we measure the morality of the United States? We are America, and our actions should be held to a higher standard, the ideals expressed in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

 

"Others argue that clear standards will limit the President's ability to wage the War on Terror. Since clear standards only limit interrogation techniques, it is reasonable for me to assume that supporters of this argument desire to use coercion to acquire information from detainees. This is morally inconsistent with the Constitution and justice in war. It is unacceptable.

 

"Both of these arguments stem from the larger question, the most important question that this generation will answer. Do we sacrifice our ideals in order to preserve security? Terrorism inspires fear and suppresses ideals like freedom and individual rights. Overcoming the fear posed by terrorist threats is a tremendous test of our courage. Will we confront danger and adversity in order to preserve our ideals, or will our courage and commitment to individual rights wither at the prospect of sacrifice? My response is simple. If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. I would rather die fighting than give up even the smallest part of the idea that is "America."

 

"Once again, I strongly urge you to do justice to your men and women in uniform. Give them clear standards of conduct that reflect the ideals they risk their lives for.

 

"With the Utmost Respect,

 

"-- Capt. Ian Fishback

1st Battalion,

504th Parachute Infantry Regiment,

82nd Airborne Division,

Fort Bragg, North Carolina"

[ikol]

According to the Golden Rule, torture is OK as long as it is conducted by masochists.

[bjorn_skurj]

This is not necessarily 100% relevant, but I watch the show 24, and it's really easy to watch that show and get angry at people who want criminals/terrorists to have due process. There are a bunch of times on the show when Jack isn't able to torture someone and terrorists are able to get away with there plan and/or Jack tortures someone and uses that information to win the day.

 

"THERE'S NO TIME, MR. PRESIDENT!!! IF I DON'T DO THIS RIGHT NOW, INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE GOING TO DIE!"

 

Anyway, I'm able to separate that show from reality, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people are less against torture because it generally seems to work on the show.

Yeah, no shit. Many analyses have shown torture is not an effective way to gather reliable information. I don't want it done in my name.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

It is true that the acts of 9/11, along with the continuing threat of terrorism, create difficult security challenges. However, these challenges must be met within a legal framework consistent with American values. If laws were broken and we do not hold the authorizing officials accountable, the precedent set is alarming. It's not about moralizing nor retribution; it's about the rule of law. Have we as Americans decided that ratified treaties become void at the precise moment they are most needed for guidance? Have we decided that war crimes should not be prosecuted if they are committed by officials of our own government? Have we decided that it is acceptable to violate the Geneva Conventions whenever convenient? Are we a nation governed by the rule of law or are we not?

 

If torture is indeed necessary to combat terrorism--a battle that will never truly be "over"--then the United States should withdraw from the United Nations Torture Treaty, withdraw from the Geneva Conventions, change American law to allow torture, and allow all future presidents to torture under the protection of law. Perhaps that is who we now want to be. Which begs the question: How did we morph from champions of human dignity into a nation of gung-ho torturers eager to look the other way?

 

 

Hate to be overly cynical here...but 'torture' isn't a new tool and it didn't miraculously start being a tool in the intelligence gathering agencies' tool bag in 2001. We've beenrendering individuals for years. (Yes...even Clinton upported rendition under HIS watch.) It didn't start in the Bush years. LSD got the big money boost when the CIA experimented using it as an interrogation tool. We probably don't really want to know what price has been paid to keep us safe and free since we became a world player.

 

It's a mean, ugly world out there. And it has always been that way.

[Beltmann]

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[John Smith]

The Golden Rule is fine with me when it comes to rules and conventions on the battlefield. Wear a uniform, carry your weapon in the open, avoid harming civilians as much as possible and treat prisoners humanely and we'll do likewise. Play dirty and we might play a little dirty too. Seems fair to me.

 

Is your golden rule do uto others as they have done unto you? Or is it do unto others as you would have them do unto you? If it is the former, than torture killig civillians etc... are all good, if it is the later, then there is no justification for torture. Some might say no justification for war either, but you can justify it as self defense of your self or others.

 

 

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Is your golden rule do uto others as they have done unto you? Or is it do unto others as you would have them do unto you? If it is the former, than torture killig civillians etc... are all good, if it is the later, then there is no justification for torture. Some might say no justification for war either, but you can justify it as self defense of your self or others.

 

 

 

 

It is definately not a new thing, however this is the first time that tirture is an offcial US policy. In my lifetime we had tortured people in Vietnam but not officially and they (the previous administration) worked overly hard to justify the torture that they said we were not doing.

 

 

I guess all the individuals 'rendered' in the Clinton years were done so by rogue elements in the intelligence services. Glad to know that now.

[John Smith]

[quote name='Crow Daddy Magnus

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Ahhhh the old standby but Clinton... It never grows old. Got to love the classics. Gone With the Wind, Stairway to Heaven, But Clinton... One thing about that though, if it was wrong then, what makes it right now? Also didn't the republicans spend eight years selling the notion that Clinton did not do anything right while in office, especially in the realm of anti-terrorism? Why hold him up as a paragon of virtue now? Beyond that the rendition program is way different from our state sponsored torture program. Turns out KSM may have been waterboarded over 180 times in one month. Zub over 80. Were these guys that tough to break? The FBI said that Zub was giving info freely and was tortured anyway and that he gave up lots of publicly available information and already known information under torture and that information was used as a reason to further torture him some more. They got KSM to confess to Daniel Pearl's murder even though the Paki's had some on in custody and convicted him of the murder. At what point does their ticking time bomb knowledge expire? Seems to me that months and months after capture the information would no longer be valid. If it were me in charge of AQ I would be changing any plans made as soon as one of my operatives was captured, thus rendering the information that guy has as being moot.

 

I'm not too familiar with the Clinton era rendition program. But did it involve snatching Canadian tourists off airplanes and sending them off to Egypt and Syria to be tortured? In other words was it an outsourcing of torture like it has been during the Bush era? Or were the clintonites sending people back top their home countries after capture? Give me some details all I've ever gotten was but clinton... and that has been about it.

 

 

I think we're fiddling while Rome burns.

[miss jayne]

Why does torture surprise us? America has done some pretty incredible acts in search of freedom. Let's start with taking the land in 1492 and the genocide that followed.Last night I heard that one prisoner was waterboarded six times in one day for one month(that fact was from the redcross memo, I believe). All I could think about is what the person or group of people who are capable of doing or okaying or supervising any of that must feel like on a daily basis today. Everyone involved should be held accountable...maybe not jail but community service to rediscover their humanity. While were on that program perhaps working side by side with the terrorists on a reforestation project or helping the elderly who might have some wisdom to share. (Yes, my world is Utopian)Just saying we have all fallen from grace around this War on Terror. I think the justice department will prosecute and Obama will let them take care of the legal aspects/political minefield of this horrendous situation.

[ikol]

Why does torture surprise us? America has done some pretty incredible acts in search of freedom. Let's start with taking the land in 1492 and the genocide that followed.

 

That was Spain.

[dondoboy]

I've hemmed and hawed about this since the topic came up, not knowing whether or not it was worth torturing someone to protect the greater good. If it worked, any of it. But I read this last night and my love for the Founding Fathers cemented me in believing that if torture was too terrible to birth our nation, its too terrible to protect it.

 

These are just some excerpts:

 

America's Anti-Torture Tradition

by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

 

Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.

 

"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements

[Edie]

Thanks for posting that Dondo....

 

Anyone catch the Daily Show last night? As usual, Jon Stewart nailed it. Torture is never right. Period.

[Good Old Neon]

I think I

[John Smith]

I think I

[futureage1]

I disagree with his premises. He starts with the improbable ticking time bomb, which is a catch -22. How do we know there is a ticking time bomb to begin with? If we don