Interesting that no has mentioned the date revisited

[Good Old Neon]

Crow -

 

What, exactly, should we be talking about? Must we publicly express our outrage every September 11th? Recount where we were, and what we were doing when we heard the news? Recall how it made us feel?

 

What, precisely, were you expecting?

[tugmoose]

I was waiting for Mark Whicker to weigh in.

[bjorn_skurj]

I was a little startled to see on the evening news last night that the Taliban has gone back to controlling 80 PERCENT of Afghanistan. I think the U.S. military should be used extremely judiciously, but when it is used, I very much prefer it to succeed, thanks.

[MattZ]

Oh, I don't know what I was expecting. Threads pop up around here on the anniversary of D-Day and the anniversary of the invention of the Twinkee for crying out loud. I certainly think it was interesting that no one wanted to discuss 9/11. There's still a lot of people that have a lot of pain related to that day. And, frankly, a lot of people who I would have thought would use the occasion to rail against what this country has looked like since then. A discussion, in any form, was what I was expecting. Maybe some trite cliches throughout like Never Forget, too?

 

It's not a question of what "should" we be talking about. At least not for me. Anytime this place is silent about something, it's interesting. Crow's thread might have been overly judgmental, and maybe that's what you were frustrated with.

 

I started a thread over in SES and it went nowhere fast.

[The High Heat]

I arrived too late last night for Crow's thread. I think closing it was more symbolic of the lack of conversation on the subject of 9/11 and maybe even to the extent that American behaviors and attitudes haven't really changed all that much after our country was attacked. Unless you were impacted in some way with the tragedy directly or subsequently, many Americans are sympathetic and respectful for the victims still carry on as if this thing happened generations ago. We still spend money, party and carry on as if we shouldn't be more cautious of the consequences of war. Pearl Harbor had every American focused on the war and protecting themselves and liberty. 9/11 was almost like a tv drama if you weren't there or haven't been affected by the fallout of the initial attack. Maybe not having a draft makes a huge difference in the attitude of Americans. 9/11 shouldn't be something we deem as a past event as we still haven't located all of those responsible for the tragedy and we are still at war because of 9/11.

 

The cost of 9/11/01 has been tremendous. Though history tells us we'll one day recover from this mess financially, too many families have lost loved ones due to what took place that day. There are the original victims and there are fast growing list of dead soldiers and civilians from across the world who make 9/11 still current.

 

Last year on 9/11 my nephew was shot to death in eastern Afghanistan. The void in my family, especially in my sister's life is something I can't even translate into words. For my family 9/11 cannot be avoided. It's there and always will be.

 

[Sir Stewart]

Peggy Noonan wrote this in today's Wall Street Journal:

It is eight years since 9/11, and here is an unexpected stage of grief: fear that the ache will go away. I don't suppose it ever will, but grieving has gradations, and "horror" becomes "absorbed sadness." Life moves on, and wants to move on, which is painful for those who will not forget and cannot be comforted. Part of the spookiness of life, part of its power to disorient us, is not only that people die, that they slip below the waves, but that the waves close above them so quickly, thesea so quickly looks the same.

[The High Heat]

Peggy Noonan wrote this in today's Wall Street Journal:

It is eight years since 9/11, and here is an unexpected stage of grief: fear that the ache will go away. I don't suppose it ever will, but grieving has gradations, and "horror" becomes "absorbed sadness." Life moves on, and wants to move on, which is painful for those who will not forget and cannot be comforted. Part of the spookiness of life, part of its power to disorient us, is not only that people die, that they slip below the waves, but that the waves close above them so quickly, thesea so quickly looks the same.

 

This is true for some. My family has only dealt with this personally for only a year. We're doing okay under the circumstances. There's pride with the pain.

 

I think the biggest problem with moving on from 9/11/01 is the fact that it is not a settled issue. We are still at war and the threat of another attack is still a serious issue until those responsible are held accountable. We as a country moved on after WWII when it ended. I don't feel we should move on completely until we have a resolution or a whole new philosphy of dealing with terroristic threats other than occupying other countries at the expense of more dead bodies of soldiers and civilians. The death toll must have an end for 9/11 to be a part of past history. The history of 9/11 is extant.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Crow -

 

What, exactly, should we be talking about? Must we publicly express our outrage every September 11th? Recount where we were, and what we were doing when we heard the news? Recall how it made us feel?

 

What, precisely, were you expecting?

 

Hell...I don't know.

 

We managed to devote 5 pages to talking about squishing bugs recently.

 

We managed to recognize David Foster Wallace in at least two different threads.

 

I just was expecting a bit of introspection about what may well be the turning point in the American experiment.

 

 

 

Crow's thread might have been overly judgmental, and maybe that's what you were frustrated with.

 

 

Do I sense another line to be added to my sig?

[bjorn_skurj]

I went to a 9/11 ceremony on Friday at a park alongside the Hudson River. It was a blustery day - the river was choppy. Seagulls shat upon the rocks, as they do on 9/11, Dec. 7. Sept. 17 and every other rotten day in American history and the good days too. As a ceremony, it was a bit bleh - there was some mediocre bagpiping, a weird benediction from a priest with a strong baritone. And when they presented the U.S. and New York State flags, the kid carrying it kept banging the top of the flagpole against the roof of the pavilion where the ceremony took place. It was all a little disorganized and rote, until a woman whose sister was on one of the planes spoke. She rather eloquently spoke of what it's like to lose someone close to you in such a way and how she cannot forget the terror her sister must have felt in that final hour before the plane hit the tower. I thought of the moment of uncertain fear when I finally woke up that morning (after everything had happened) and I heard what had happened. My sister was in D.C. for a conference and I was not sure whether she had flown out the previous night or that morning. I called my mom - who had been leaving me messages about the attacks all morning, culminating in an exasperated, "Wake up, Dan, there's a WAR!" - and she told me that she had made it home safely. Still, I will never forget how that fear felt, and how very much worse it must be for those people who lost someone they loved on that day. Other than that, I am not sure what tribute I could pay that would do any justice to them, and all the other people in the world hurt by people being killed for no good reason at all. Be less of an asshole, I guess.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Hell...I don't know.

 

We managed to devote 5 pages to talking about squishing bugs recently.

 

We managed to recognize David Foster Wallace in at least two different threads.

 

I just was expecting a bit of introspection about what may well be the turning point in the American experiment.

 

Grief is personal, and neither of the threads you cite are really personal. Certainly, people have their personal (and shockingly deep) feelings about bug squishing, but it's not personal quite in the same way as 9/11 was. Same for DFW. I assume most VCers are handling something in their lives that are a bit traumatic or heavy right now, and you'll notice not everyone has started a thread about it - that's their prerogative. Some people love talking through their grief, but if I've learned one thing on this earth so far, it's to absolutely refrain from judging how people are handling a traumatic event, especially when their ways differ from how I would mourn.

 

For me at least, I don't feel like 9/11 is something I have to mourn too personally for myself - I knew no one who was at any of the attack sites that day, and no one who was directly affected by anything that happened that day. While I thought a lot about the anniversary and read a number of wonderful articles in the New York Times on Friday, it didn't feel like my discussion to start. I would have felt more voyeur than participant had I started the thread. It's not something I'll ever forget, but that doesn't mean I have to post, say, or even think Never Forget.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Grief is personal, and neither of the threads you cite are really personal. Certainly, people have their personal (and shockingly deep) feelings about bug squishing, but it's not personal quite in the same way as 9/11 was. Same for DFW. I assume most VCers are handling something in their lives that are a bit traumatic or heavy right now, and you'll notice not everyone has started a thread about it - that's their prerogative. Some people love talking through their grief, but if I've learned one thing on this earth so far, it's to absolutely refrain from judging how people are handling a traumatic event, especially when their ways differ from how I would mourn.

 

For me at least, I don't feel like 9/11 is something I have to mourn too personally for myself - I knew no one who was at any of the attack sites that day, and no one who was directly affected by anything that happened that day. While I thought a lot about the anniversary and read a number of wonderful articles in the New York Times on Friday, it didn't feel like my discussion to start. I would have felt more voyeur than participant had I started the thread. It's not something I'll ever forget, but that doesn't mean I have to post, say, or even think Never Forget.

 

 

I'm not buying it.

 

We have posters (myself included) who write of illness, death, family issues, boyfriend issues; who share the most intimate moments of their lives on this forum.

 

I come here looking for a sense of community. Looking for a connection with people to reflect on a terrible time in our country and I get SCOLDED?

 

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

 

So...if I understand the ground rules that are being expressed as a subtext here I suppose there be no more posts requesting Vibes, telling us about our kids' various achievements and employment opportunities. No more cute stories about cats.

 

I thought this was a community. I'm not sure exactly what this is anymore.

 

Just another message board for fans?

 

Really?

 

We will just talk about health care

[MattZ]

Do I sense another line to be added to my sig?

 

I hope you didn't take my statement too harshly. I understand where your frustration came from. Truly. But your thread was quite pointed, and I can understand how someone would react the way that Good Old Neon did, too. No one is right here. No one is wrong either.

 

As an aside, I have been struggling recently with a friend of a friend getting married on 9/11. My initial reaction was to be horrified. And then my second thought was that we all have to live our lives. And 9/11 is a stupid date on a stupid calendar. What better way to respect the horror from that day than by extending a middle finger, and creating something new and beautiful and eternal?

 

This shit is complicated.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

 

 

This shit is complicated.

 

 

It most certainly is.

[isadorah]

This is the first year I didn't think anything of it being Sept. 11 and didn't feel upset or out of place. I only realized what day it was when I saw someone post something on Facebook. I call that healing and wonder at what point we find the mourning process complete. Yes it is different for everyone, but maybe the silence on the board means that healing process has found its way through the community for most and we don't feel the need to lament it anymore. [NOTE: I was next door to the whitehouse when everything happened and watched the pentagon burn while trying to figure out how to get out of DC]

 

What I find saddening is how we as a country continue to mourn Sept. 11 and have somehow completely forgotten Hurricane Katrina even though the death tolls were almost the same, the displacement numbers for Katrina were astronomical, and the devastation and destruction was greater than that of Sept 11. Either that or we just healed really quickly when it came to one over the other. Or...well...I'll keep the rest to myself...

[remphish1]

This is the first year I didn't think anything of it being Sept. 11 and didn't feel upset or out of place. I only realized what day it was when I saw someone post something on Facebook. I call that healing and wonder at what point we find the mourning process complete. Yes it is different for everyone, but maybe the silence on the board means that healing process has found its way through the community for most and we don't feel the need to lament it anymore. [NOTE: I was next door to the whitehouse when everything happened and watched the pentagon burn while trying to figure out how to get out of DC]

 

What I find saddening is how we as a country continue to mourn Sept. 11 and have somehow completely forgotten Hurricane Katrina even though the death tolls were almost the same, the displacement numbers for Katrina were astronomical, and the devastation and destruction was greater than that of Sept 11. Either that or we just healed really quickly when it came to one over the other. Or...well...I'll keep the rest to myself...

 

I didn't do anything in particular on Sept 11 but I did watch on the History Channel the story of the World Trade Center Marriott which was very moving. I didn't realize this 25 story building also collapsed that day and how 14 people survived by being in the right place at the right time. It was very touching and was another angle of The World Trade Center sight from that day that I was unaware of. It is also irnic how the 1993 WTC bombings and the aftermath saved the lives of this group of 14 people at the Marriott. Did anyone catch this?

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm not buying it.

 

We have posters (myself included) who write of illness, death, family issues, boyfriend issues; who share the most intimate moments of their lives on this forum.

 

I come here looking for a sense of community. Looking for a connection with people to reflect on a terrible time in our country and I get SCOLDED?

 

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

 

So...if I understand the ground rules that are being expressed as a subtext here I suppose there be no more posts requesting Vibes, telling us about our kids' various achievements and employment opportunities. No more cute stories about cats.

 

I thought this was a community. I'm not sure exactly what this is anymore.

 

Just another message board for fans?

 

Really?

 

We will just talk about health care

 

So, you think it's okay to judge how other people grieve? Really? You got scolded because of your approach, not because you said, "September 11 - the anniversary? Thoughts?" Your first thread was about how YOU wanted people to deal with 9/11. It was not about 9/11. You judged people in your post - judged them rather harshly based on how YOU thought they were supposed to react - and you were surprised when someone suggested that was not appropriate?

 

What I said (and you can read my post again) is that some people like to talk about these kinds of things and some people don't. You said you are one of those people, and you started the thread. Coincidence of coincidences! People can post whatever they want to post about, but if I posted a thread about my cute cats and subsequently shat on people who did not feel the same way about my cats, I would not be surprised if the thread was closed.

 

You're right. Some people share the most intimate moments of their lives here on this board. September 11 impacted me greatly, but was not one of the most intimate moments of my life. It was for thousands of people, but not me. For me to start a thread about it therefore, TO ME, would not seem genuine - and that could very well be the sentiment of a lot of people here.

 

If you're going to whack out on the "where's the community?!?!" angle, you might want to tone down on the judgement, or at least post CDM's Guide to Community Behavior first.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

So, you think it's okay to judge how other people grieve? Really? You got scolded because of your approach, not because you said, "September 11 - the anniversary? Thoughts?" Your first thread was about how YOU wanted people to deal with 9/11. It was not about 9/11. You judged people in your post - judged them rather harshly based on how YOU thought they were supposed to react - and you were surprised when someone suggested that was not appropriate?

 

What I said (and you can read my post again) is that some people like to talk about these kinds of things and some people don't. You said you are one of those people, and you started the thread. Coincidence of coincidences! People can post whatever they want to post about, but if I posted a thread about my cute cats and subsequently shat on people who did not feel the same way about my cats, I would not be surprised if the thread was closed.

 

You're right. Some people share the most intimate moments of their lives here on this board. September 11 impacted me greatly, but was not one of the most intimate moments of my life. It was for thousands of people, but not me. For me to start a thread about it therefore, TO ME, would not seem genuine - and that could very well be the sentiment of a lot of people here.

 

If you're going to whack out on the "where's the community?!?!" angle, you might want to tone down on the judgement, or at least post CDM's Guide to Community Behavior first.

 

 

You win..

 

It's 9/14.

[Good Old Neon]

So, you think it's okay to judge how other people grieve? Really? You got scolded because of your approach, not because you said, "September 11 - the anniversary? Thoughts?" Your first thread was about how YOU wanted people to deal with 9/11. It was not about 9/11. You judged people in your post - judged them rather harshly based on how YOU thought they were supposed to react - and you were surprised when someone suggested that was not appropriate?

 

What I said (and you can read my post again) is that some people like to talk about these kinds of things and some people don't. You said you are one of those people, and you started the thread. Coincidence of coincidences! People can post whatever they want to post about, but if I posted a thread about my cute cats and subsequently shat on people who did not feel the same way about my cats, I would not be surprised if the thread was closed.

 

You're right. Some people share the most intimate moments of their lives here on this board. September 11 impacted me greatly, but was not one of the most intimate moments of my life. It was for thousands of people, but not me. For me to start a thread about it therefore, TO ME, would not seem genuine - and that could very well be the sentiment of a lot of people here.

 

If you're going to whack out on the "where's the community?!?!" angle, you might want to tone down on the judgement, or at least post CDM's Guide to Community Behavior first.

 

This.

 

My reply had more to do with your shame-on-all-of-you-for-not expressing-your-feelings/outrage-regarding-9/11…again tone, than with anything having to do with a 9/11 thread.

 

Perhaps some of us chose to attend a mass, and did our grieving in private, in a pew, or, maybe some of us spent the day at the ocean, with friends and family, expressing our grief, or maybe someone living in California hiked a favorite nearby peak, and upon reaching the summit, looked east with a heavy heart. As Speed Racer has pointed out, everyone grieves in there own way, hell, some of us don’t even grieve – and that, I think, is ok to.

 

You were scolded because you chose to scold everyone, collectively, for not discussing what is, essentially, a private matter. Most folks have probably already bared their souls regarding what happened on that day, on numerous occasions over the intervening years, and if you took a moment to search, perhaps you could have found them. For me, at a certain point, saying I was sad on 9/11 becomes redundant and unnecessary, as it goes without saying.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

This.

 

My reply had more to do with your shame-on-all-of-you-for-not expressing-your-feelings/outrage-regarding-9/11…again tone, than with anything having to do with a 9/11 thread.

 

Perhaps some of us chose to attend a mass, and did our grieving in private, in a pew, or, maybe some of us spent the day at the ocean, with friends and family, expressing our grief, or maybe someone living in California hiked a favorite nearby peak, and upon reaching the summit, looked east with a heavy heart. As Speed Racer has pointed out, everyone grieves in there own way, hell, some of us don’t even grieve – and that, I think, is ok to.

 

You were scolded because you chose to scold everyone, collectively, for not discussing what is, essentially, a private matter. Most folks have probably already bared their souls regarding what happened on that day, on numerous occasions over the intervening years, and if you took a moment to search, perhaps you could have found them. For me, at a certain point, saying I was sad on 9/11 becomes redundant and unnecessary, as it goes without saying.

 

 

I didn't expect chest beating (which you are really adept at)...I came looking for a shared collective reflection and found nothing.

 

So yeah, I was an ass about it.

 

We find so many ways to pull ourselves apart. But reflection and sharing in this online community should not have been out of place. We need a way to bring ourselves together.

 

So, instead of reflections of the tragedy, you guys have been spending your time castigating me for calling out the board collectively. Easier to scold a noted internet clown and curmudgeon than reflect.

 

So, I won't make any comments or reflections on March 20 or April 20.

[Tweedling]

The lack of response did not surprise me at all.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Sweet lord, stop martyring yourself! Your first thread - and let's face it, each subsequent reply - was about as community-friendly as a nest of porcupines. You're STILL scolding people for not doing this on your terms.

 

We need a way to bring ourselves together.

 

This reminds me of a rather painful moment growing up when my mother decided that my family was going to have the BEST FAMILY DAY EVER. She pushed and pushed and was the biggest pain in the ass all day, literaly yelling at us because we didn't look like we were having enough fun.

 

You can't force a "community moment." No matter how much you yell at us for apparently pulling ourselves apart.

[cryptique]

I understand why one might have expected to see a thread about 9/11 here, because we talk about every other coddamned thing. I'm sure there were 9/11 anniversary threads in the past.

 

This year no one started one. There are any number of reasons why this happened, starting with the somewhat lower board traffic (from some people, anyway) since the big crash earlier this year.

 

But I also think there's a point beyond which it's no longer necessary for many of us to endlessly air our feelings about such events in public year after year. Many people have engaged in that sort of thing every year since it happened, and maybe this was the year that we collectively decided, without consulting each other, that it was time to take our observances offline and make them more private. Perhaps it had to do with the election of a new administration. Possibly it was a function of the implosion of our economy since the last anniversary. Maybe it was just a natural occurrence after eight years. Or maybe we're now in the "big round number" stage, where we mark the decade anniversaries and certain half-decades (e.g., 25 years) but otherwise don't make a big fuss.

 

Personally, I marked the occasion by watching 102 Minutes That Changed America on the History Channel. It's just video footage (professional and amateur) and miscellaneous audio (911 calls, phone messages, communications between firefighters, etc.) arranged in real time, more or less, during the attacks. No narration at all. It's a powerful way to revisit that day.

[cryptique]

This reminds me of a rather painful moment growing up when my mother decided that my family was going to have the BEST FAMILY DAY EVER. She pushed and pushed and was the biggest pain in the ass all day, literaly yelling at us because we didn't look like we were having enough fun.

Do we have the same mother? Jeezus, you've described mine to a T.

 

Not only does she push in exactly that manner, she absolutely cannot let a pleasant, spontaneous family moment pass without commenting on how wonderful it is, thereby ruining it for everyone.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Sweet lord, stop martyring yourself! Your first thread - and let's face it, each subsequent reply - was about as community-friendly as a nest of porcupines. You're STILL scolding people for not doing this on your terms.

 

 

 

This reminds me of a rather painful moment growing up when my mother decided that my family was going to have the BEST FAMILY DAY EVER. She pushed and pushed and was the biggest pain in the ass all day, literaly yelling at us because we didn't look like we were having enough fun.

 

You can't force a "community moment." No matter how much you yell at us for apparently pulling ourselves apart.

 

 

Yeah...

 

But all that being said...we really aren't a community, are we?

[Good Old Neon]

The lack of response did not surprise me at all.

 

It shouldn’t, as what you would consider a liberal, if not a socialist, I spent the day calling the victim’s families, just to remind them that I hate America, and that they deserved it, and oh – socialism. As I’m sure the rest of the community did as well.

 

Of course, I don’t recall you starting a 9/11 remembrance thread….but I did, so, my patriotism is obviously bigger than yours.