The New Atheists

[Kevan]

Did you thank God when you won, or did you forget all about the prayer?

 

I was always very thankful! And when we lost I just assumed a player on the other team prayed harder! I shit you not!

 

Of course, I was, like, 8.

[jff]

my particular church of Presbyterians was pretty passive-aggressive.

 

 

(God'll probably strike me down for lying, but I'll take back my "see you in another thread" comment.)

 

I've found Presbyterians to be very low key about their religion, relative to other religious groups. There's a house full of them next door to me, and none of them have ever tried to church-chat or proseletize.

 

Maybe it's a southern thing, but in Atlanta Christianity is very much in your face, and you do get hit up by churchies a lot.

[Moss]

Interesting, I just started "Gravity's Rainbow" earlier and the first quote in the book is:

 

"Nature does not know extinction; all it knows is transformation. Everything science has taught me, and continues to teach me, strengthens my belief in the continuity of our spiritual existence after death." Wernher Von Braun

 

[jff]

I was always very thankful! And when we lost I just assumed a player on the other team prayed harder! I shit you not!

 

Of course, I was, like, 8.

 

No, I mean did you literally thank God...as in, give Him equal time after the win as you did before the win. At the risk of leading the witness, your answer could go a long way towards proving my point. Answer truthfully.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I've found Presbyterians to be very low key about their religion, relative to other religious groups. There's a house full of them next door to me, and none of them have ever tried to church-chat or proseletize.

 

You know, I thought that too until I went to a Presbyterian Youth convention in my teens. CHRIST that was some scary shit. They can be as glaze-eyed as the Jonestown crew if you give them a chance.

 

My church just happened to be pretty low-key. And again, we tended to get about as direct as, "Now God, we know you wouldn't take Kevin's life for any old reason, so surely you must have a plan and not just be killing people willy-nilly. Clearly, we are too dim to see the divine plan you had when you robbed him from his parents."

[u2roolz]

Ok it's time for me to open up and then ask some questions.

 

I went to Catholic school all the way through senior year in high school. By the time I got to 7th or 8th grade I stopped believing and started questioning. Of course due to biases my parents felt the need to send me to a Catholic high school for a "better" education than public school. I would say I gradually went from an Atheist to an Agnostic over the course of my college years.

 

I used to have nightmares almost every night in my childhood. I remember they involved someone being tortured (in a jungle type setting) from their point of view. At the time I didn't question it. It was just there in my dream state. It was only until I had a young woman act in one of my short films from college that I began to have a different opinion. She told me that her brother had nightmares of being in a concentration camp. He was only 4 years old. It seems like a fairly good reason to at least question reincarnation.

 

Last year on September 26th I had an amazing experience. Well, that fall I was feeling pretty worn out. I questioned if I had developed diabetes. It runs in my family and I've always been borderline. So anyways I went to bed like I normally do the night before and knew that I was going to my doctor the next day. I remember being awake for about a minute and had a voice talking to me. My back was facing my door and my face was facing my pillow, so I was also facing my wall. The voice told me "that everything is going to be alright. you're not going to die." And there was more but I fell asleep. But while it was happening I had the best feeling in the whole world. Also, I felt no need for flinching over to see who was talking to me. The voice was soothing to say the least and also very feminine but not really. If that makes sense. I always heard the expression "like an angel whispering in your ear". I'm not entirely sure if that entity was communicating with me through mental telepathy or if they were talking out loud. I should also add that I've had two experiences before while sleeping where I woke up with a jolt. Almost like my heart restarted itself. One time it seemed like I saw something white (like a feather) coming into my closed eyes and then I jumped out of bed with my heart racing.

 

A friend of mine told me something that I found really exciting and interesting. A friend of his remembered floating down from the sky and then into his earth bound body and then looking into his mother's eyes while walking on the street. I had a similar experience. I remember waking up one day, maybe the first day that I could walk. But I remember looking at myself in the mirror. It was as if I had my first sense of self and my existence. It's also strange that that's my earliest memory.

 

Onto the questions that I have: (ok, I'll get to them in a bit.)

[Winston Legthigh]

No, I mean did you literally thank God...as in, give Him equal time after the win as you did before the win. At the risk of leading the witness, your answer could go a long way towards proving my point. Answer truthfully.

Asking a yes/no question IS leading the witness!

[Kevan]

No, I mean did you literally thank God...as in, give Him equal time after the win as you did before the win. At the risk of leading the witness, your answer could go a long way towards proving my point. Answer truthfully.

 

If we won I would pray afterward and thank god for it. The only praying I did was late in close games, didn't happen all the time, so I guess time spent praying for outcome and in thanks about equalled out.

 

In my mind God was like my personal genie, the wishes he would grant were finite but would replenish if I didn't ask too often

[Guest Speed Racer]

I imagine God gets quite a kick out of people using prayer to ask for results.

 

I'm pretty sure all the heartburn of my youth had little to do with spicy foods and everything to do with god smiting me for my result-based prayers.

[embiggen]

when I read the title of this thread I thought "The New Athiests" was the name of a band or something. then I read some of this...boy was I wrong.

[jff]

If we won I would pray afterward and thank god for it. The only praying I did was late in close games, didn't happen all the time, so I guess time spent praying for outcome and in thanks about equalled out.

 

 

 

Turns out I was leading the witness, so I'd like this answer stricken from the record...

 

 

 

 

...as it does not support the conclusion I was attmepting to lead the witness towards.

[Kevan]

Turns out I was leading the witness, so I'd like this answer stricken from the record...

 

 

 

 

...as it does not support the conclusion I was attmepting to lead the witness towards.

 

ah, who cares? What was the point you were leading toward? Maybe that will get this discussion back on topic.

[jff]

ah, who cares? What was the point you were leading toward? Maybe that will get this discussion back on topic.

 

That praying when things are crappy is more common than praying when things are going well.

[Kevan]

That praying when things are crappy is more common than praying when things are going well.

 

Ah, indeed. Indeed....

[u2roolz]

Alright, I'm kind of fascinated by what people think of the Adam & Eve story and Pandora. Bear with me I'm going to try and connect these ideas with a recent film that received some misogynistic reviews.

 

OK. Adam & Eve. Eve is offered fruit from the Tree of Knowledge from the serpent. She takes it and eats from it. I'm sure anyone at that point would eat from it, since it was the Tree of Knowledge. I guess the problem with it is that certain groups use it to put down women. I know that one woman named Eve is not indicative of any other woman's actions, but let's play along. What if Adam was offered the fruit first instead of Eve? Would he have accepted it? I think he would have. He did accept it when Eve offered it to him. Then he blamed her and she blamed the serpent. So I guess my question is "what is the big deal with her wanting to gain knowledge"? Curiosity? I'll get to Pandora in a bit. I know that I'm not the only one who sees the irony and beauty that Eve is the one to eat the fruit first and she is also herself a creator of children. It's almost really empowering if you think about it. She has eaten the fruit and can bear children. Of course, God banished them from the garden and then Adam lives for over 900 years? On a side note I came across an interesting site that claimed that liquified gold can bring about an extended life. (I won't get into who came here to mine it ) Anyways, it seems that this story kind of put women in their place for the course of history.

 

Pandora's Box. Pandora is the 1st woman in Greek mythology. Pandora opens the box or a jar against Zeus' wishes. She opens it out of curiosity and not malicious intentions. And much like in Adam & Eve, evil is released into the world. She closed the box after seeing what she unleashed onto the world and hope was left lying at the bottom of the box. Were these myths created to blame women for evil? I think there's more to it than that. In both situations the woman was tricked it seems. The jar was a gift given to her from Zeus. The fruit was offered by the serpent.

 

SPOILERS:

The Box. ( a remake of an old 80s Twilight Zone)I don't think anyone saw this film. I remember going onto the IMDB to read what people thought about it. I remember one woman was furious that the film was misogynistic. The premise: In 1976 a creepy disfigured old man shows up to this couple's house with a box. If they push the red button they receive a million dollars. And one person that they don't know will die. The husband has serious reservations about the man and the box. His job promotion is also in jeopardy. He doesn't want to push it. The wife wants to push the button because she wants to pay for her son's tuition and figures it will help them out in the long run. She is a school teacher. She pushes the button.

 

This is where the woman on IMDB got pissed. She was upset that a woman was portrayed in this light again as in Adam & Eve and Pandora's Box. In this instance I see things a bit differently. I felt that it was that woman's maternal instinct to provide for her son and family that made her push the button. Also, it may have been her frustrations for having the salary of a school teacher and not something more due to the times in which she lived. The fact that someone else will die is huge, but keep in mind that it was 1976 and people were less connected for obvious reasons. Still it's no reason for someone to have to die, but it does create interesting moral questions and dilemmas.

 

But as the film went along you noticed that it seemed to be women that pushed the button. Hmm. Interesting. I guess being a guy I can be upset that that man wouldn't want to receive a million dollars to provide for his family. Especially since his promotion didn't come through. He seemed a bit passive on the decision almost like you could say Adam in the Garden. Where was Adam in the Garden? Was he not wandering around? Was Eve the one wandering around the Garden because she was curious?

 

I will say that The Box is a psychological philosophical religious thriller. It's pretty obvious that the red box is an allusion to the fruit in the Garden of Knowledge. So is the mysterious man. He could be the devil or something completely different.

 

I won't spoil the ending of The Box, but I just wanted to know what people felt about these stories. And if anyone has seen The Box did they feel similar and ask questions.

[jakobnicholas]

That praying when things are crappy is more common than praying when things are going well.

 

 

 

You might be right. I think it's natural for people to pray when things aren't going well. But I think many devout Christians pray every day, even when things are going well. Prayers like, "help me stay positive today", or "please help keep my children safe walking to school" or "watch over my Grandma today and help her find happiness living alone" variety rather than the "make the Steelers win the Super Bowl" or "take away the cancer in my Uncle" variety.

 

As there are more than a billion Catholics worldwide, there are certain prayers said in rosary and/or mass that must be recited millions of times every day:

 

 

OUR FATHER: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

 

HAIL MARY: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

APOSTLE'S CREED: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

[jff]

 

APOSTLE'S CREED: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

 

I managed to make it through catholic school wothout memorizing that one.

 

What is that symbol catholics make on their face during mass? Not the sign of the cross, the other one. I never learned what that is, despite having gone through years of sunday school, catholic high school, confirmation, etc.

[Good Old Neon]

 

APOSTLE'S CREED: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

 

When I was a kid, I thought I was praying to, or maybe it was just for, Apollo Creed.

[jff]

When I was a kid, I thought I was praying to, or maybe it was just for, Apollo Creed.

 

Maybe if you prayed harder he wouldn't have been killed by that commie/atheist Ivan Drago.

[Winston Legthigh]

What is that symbol catholics make on their face during mass? Not the sign of the cross, the other one. I never learned what that is, despite having gone through years of sunday school, catholic high school, confirmation, etc.

I think you're referring to the triple sign of the cross (done with the tip of the thumb over the forehead, lips, then chest) done before the Gospel, usually accompanied by "May the Word of God be on my mind, my lips and in my heart"

[jff]

I think you're referring to the triple sign of the cross (done with the tip of the thumb over the forehead, lips, then chest) done before the Gospel, usually accompanied by "May the Word of God be on my mind, my lips and in my heart"

 

Yeah, that's it, although my church never said "May the Word of God be on my mind, my lips and in my heart." Perhaps they said it in latin. I always thought it was weird that everyone but me knew when and how to do that.

[Winston Legthigh]

Yeah, that's it, although my church never said "May the Word of God be on my mind, my lips and in my heart." Perhaps they said it in latin. I always thought it was weird that everyone but me knew when and how to do that.

I don't think anyone of the parishioners really say the words either - but our pastor does.

[bleedorange]

When I was a kid, I thought I was praying to, or maybe it was just for, Apollo Creed.

 

I made the same connotation when I was a kid. It helps when Rocky IV is your favorite movie as an 8-year-old.

[Ghost of Electricity]

Since starting this thread I have intentionally refrained from posting in it, but also kept a fairly close eye on it. There are reasons for not engaging in the debate I provoked that I will get to shortly.

 

But first I would like to drag out a familiar metaphor: that of a fence dividing atheists and faithful. Most of the population, I would hazard to guess is populated fairly close to the fence, many even stradle it. The problem is the few people who sit too far away from the fence whose view of those on the other side is obstructed. Back in the nether reaches of the yard that these types of people inhabit the soil is rocky and they perpetually engage themselves in hurling stomes at the "them" on the other side of the fence. These stones largely fall clear of the multitudes in the middle, who can conveniently ignore them.

 

The traditional "religion vs. science" debate, or at least the part of it that is high profile, is carried out by those dogmatics lurking in the back of the yard.

 

The VC bunch seems like a fairly educated, reasonable bunch. By starting this I wanted to see to what degree the discussion would be that of neighborly openness and to what degree it would be throwing stones.

 

In his book "A Friendly Letter to Sceptics and Atheists" David Myers quotes anthropologist Richard Schweder: " Fanatics and Infidels have their ways of keeping each other in business." The subject of psychology has come up at least once here, and Myers would definitely have something to say about that. There's a good chance he wrote your psych 101 textbook. He is a man of science, and also a man of faith, and a person well-qualified to point out (these are my words not his) that a discussion of these two topics does not need to "Religion versus Science" but can also, and more productively be phrased as "Religion and Science." The two need not be competitive, and indeed they are both better served if treated as complimentary. The fence that separates believers from non-believers is NOT the fence that separates religion and science.

 

Dawkins and Hitchens are keen to write off religion as superstition and myth, but themselves seem unable to buy into many of the myths about religion, and in particular about religious people.

 

The Theory of Evolution is a prime example. Most Christians do not doubt it for a second, there have been prominent theologians such as Benjamin Warfield who welcomed evolution, and prominent evolutionary biologists, such as Theodore Dobzhansky, who were devout believers. Dawkins ignores there examples and instead focuses on those on the lunatic fringe of Christianity who came up with the theory of Intelligent Design.

 

While the fundamentalist Christian camp will still pitch their tent on creationist grounds, most have left for firmer territory. This, however, does not render the Bible false. It is ridiculous to think that a book written two thousand years ago can have anything to say about modern scientific understanding, and equally ridiculous to dismiss it because it has nothing to say about modern scienctific understanding. It is more than an outdated science textbook. There are still valuable moral teachings there, for believers and non-believers alike.

 

Incidentally, I am personally surprised at how well Genesis actually did without that 2000 years of science behind it. The sequence of events in the creation myth closely parallels the sequence that science gives us- from the big bang (light) through the creation first of galaxies and solar systems to the emergence of life and, finally, the emergence of human beings.

 

This is enough for now, but I would like to make clear my position in the imaginary yard. I'm sitting squarely on the fence, hoping I'll fall one way but suspecting I'll fall the other.

[M. (hristine]

Mostly it's what we do here at VC between Volkswagon commercials.