Your ranking of Wilco albums

[choo-choo-charlie]

I know a lot of people railed One Wing on the list when it was played live. I think it was definitely a case of the band seeing the song going one way, but fan response caused them to change up the song by the time it was recorded. I thought it had promise initially, but I think the arguments of thrashing excess were probably accurate. This may not make sense but I think the song has an unfinished feel, because it never became the song they envisioned because it wasn't one that fans seemed to want.

 

This is an interesting opinion. Do you really think that Wilco would change a song based on fan reactions or "what the fans want?" They seem to me to be the kind of band that puts out the material that the band wants to put out, regardless of who will buy it, listen to it, etc.

[MCHowdy]

This is an interesting opinion. Do you really think that Wilco would change a song based on fan reactions or "what the fans want?" They seem to me to be the kind of band that puts out the material that the band wants to put out, regardless of who will buy it, listen to it, etc.

 

Maybe so: they may be purists. But they are a pop group in (large) part, and pop groups try to make albums that will reach a large number of people. Sometimes individual songs are crafted in such a way that they will draw in some fans that might not be snared by the more challenging stuff. I say this not as a criticism at all. I'd suggest that a song like "Walken" was crafted for a larger audience, but that doesn't hurt it as a piece of art, at least to me.

 

However, "You and I", which I believe must have been recorded as an attempt to reach a larger audience, strikes me as attempt at the same target, but misses by a mile.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Maybe so: they may be purists. But they are a pop group in (large) part, and pop groups try to make albums that will reach a large number of people.

 

Can you let me know which genre of music is written and recorded with the aim of NOT reaching a large number of people?

 

All musicians make music to reach a large number of people. That's like saying John is down at Goodyear to buy tires, so that he can put them on his car. The second clause is always, always redundant. Surely Wilco makes music that will attract listeners, not least of all because they really enjoy playing shows, and shows tend to be much less fun without an audience.

 

To suggest that they changed a medicore end to a mediocre song because of a mediocre reaction from an audience at one or two shows, to make it even MORE mediocre in an attempt to really jazz the crowds up - one song - is silly.

 

As for "You & I," just a few thoughts:

 

* Jeff has long stated that he has wanted to record a duet; in fact, "Forget the Flowers" was orginally conceived as, and once performed as, a duet; and

 

* If you had a chance to record with Feist (or any musician you enjoy, of the opposite sex) wouldn't you?

[MCHowdy]

Can you let me know which genre of music is written and recorded with the aim of NOT reaching a large number of people?

 

All musicians make music to reach a large number of people. That's like saying John is down at Goodyear to buy tires, so that he can put them on his car. The second clause is always, always redundant. Surely Wilco makes music that will attract listeners, not least of all because they really enjoy playing shows, and shows tend to be much less fun without an audience.

 

To suggest that they changed a medicore end to a mediocre song because of a mediocre reaction from an audience at one or two shows, to make it even MORE mediocre in an attempt to really jazz the crowds up - one song - is silly.

 

As for "You & I," just a few thoughts:

 

* Jeff has long stated that he has wanted to record a duet; in fact, "Forget the Flowers" was orginally conceived as, and once performed as, a duet; and

 

* If you had a chance to record with Feist (or any musician you enjoy, of the opposite sex) wouldn't you?

 

 

Well, you seem to be willfully misapprehending what I wrote to make some kind of point. What point that is, I don't know, maybe just to be smarter than me. But your analogy needs a lot of work. You also seem to be referring to my post in your first paragraph, and somebody else's in the third.

 

"Pop" music, more than most, is "popular" by nature, and therefore has, by definition, a larger potential audience that it can reach. Ornette Coleman may have been a genius, and he may have hoped that his recordings would reach a large audience, but I assure you he never expected to or even aimed for it. Wanted is different from aimed. But when Roger McGuinn used his ideas on rock records, those records went on to sell millions. Maybe not exactly because of those ideas, but placed in a "pop" context, they had a greater chance at selling larger numbers.

 

Also, I know literally hundreds of musicians and, yes, I've met quite a few who have no interest in trying to reach a large audience. For whatever reasons they may have.

 

Jeff's stated desire or not, You and I just strikes me as incomplete, and as a not very good song. I apologize to those who like it, because my intention is never to make anyone feel bad about liking any Wilco song.

 

Feist, maybe. Gillian Welch? You bet.

[Winston Legthigh]

Can you let me know which genre of music is written and recorded with the aim of NOT reaching a large number of people?

 

Have you listened to Trout Mask Replica?

[choo-choo-charlie]

However, "You and I", which I believe must have been recorded as an attempt to reach a larger audience, strikes me as attempt at the same target, but misses by a mile.

 

When I first heard that Tweedy and Feist were going to sing a duet on W(TA), I felt the same way. I thought "they're going right for the new Feist fans that came on board with '1,2,3,4' and this is gonna be the pop machine that's going to launch Wilco into an entirely different realm." I thought they were gonna pop up on an iPod commercial or something. I think I was wrong. And part of me is glad that "You and I" didn't achieve that.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Have you listened to Trout Mask Replica?

 

Hey, you're talking to a big Jandek fan. And even he was/is actively seeking listeners. People who write and even record aren't necessarily looking for an audience, but people who write and record and release - there's no way you can argue they don't want other people to hear them. Their levels of success in that regard may vary, but it really is about that simple.

 

Wilco has always sounded on every record as if they are playing the music they want to play at that time. We can argue their intentions for hours, and even presume to know what psychological dispositions encouraged them to record this way, but frankly I don't care too much; I think that we're heading into Overthinksville. The fact that songs sound "unfinished," a description I disagree with, may simply be a "we do because we can," action. With a stable audience base, why not release whatever you want with whomever you can?

[Winston Legthigh]

Hey, you're talking to a big Jandek fan. And even he was/is actively seeking listeners. People who write and even record aren't necessarily looking for an audience, but people who write and record and release - there's no way you can argue they don't want other people to hear them. Their levels of success in that regard may vary, but it really is about that simple.

Other people? yes. Large amounts of people? (your original words) Arguable.

[MCHowdy]

When I first heard that Tweedy and Feist were going to sing a duet on W(TA), I felt the same way. I thought "they're going right for the new Feist fans that came on board with '1,2,3,4' and this is gonna be the pop machine that's going to launch Wilco into an entirely different realm." I thought they were gonna pop up on an iPod commercial or something. I think I was wrong. And part of me is glad that "You and I" didn't achieve that.

 

 

I hear what you're saying. When I was (much) younger I was a huge Clash fan (obviously) and lived in dread that they would one day not be "my little secret." Well, I was a teenager, so I didn't realize at the time that they already weren't "mine." When they went to that entirely different realm after Combat Rock, I was disappointed, but I overcame it later. In fact, I never felt that way about a band again, and having been a musician all of my life, I never begrudge any band success.

 

Strange that we sometimes feel that way, though, isn't it? Like we don't want to share, at least too much.

[MCHowdy]

Other people? yes. Large amounts of people? (your original words) Arguable.

 

 

Good point.

 

To take that in a slightly different, we could all probably come up with a long list of artists whom we suspect may have purposefully sabotaged their own careers just to avoid dealing with large audiences. I could probably prove none of the cases, I admit.

[bourbonbreath]

1- YHF

2- AGIB

3- BT

4- ST

5- SBS

6- AM

7- WTA

 

ready for a new record after the disappointing WTA.

[Central Scrutinizer]

To suggest that they changed a medicore end to a mediocre song because of a mediocre reaction from an audience at one or two shows, to make it even MORE mediocre in an attempt to really jazz the crowds up - one song - is silly.

If you are suggesting that a band trying out material live before recording is indifferent to the audience's response, that how a song is played is not affected by how people respond to it -- in person, as a live audience or comments on a fan site, that's silly.

[choo-choo-charlie]

I hear what you're saying. When I was (much) younger I was a huge Clash fan (obviously) and lived in dread that they would one day not be "my little secret." Well, I was a teenager, so I didn't realize at the time that they already weren't "mine." When they went to that entirely different realm after Combat Rock, I was disappointed, but I overcame it later. In fact, I never felt that way about a band again, and having been a musician all of my life, I never begrudge any band success.

 

Strange that we sometimes feel that way, though, isn't it? Like we don't want to share, at least too much.

 

Indeed. I'm all for Wilco achieving the success they're aiming for, be it in number of record sales, satisfaction with a recording, or a sold-out tour chock full of mind-blowing shows that fans would gobble up past the three-hour mark. But I know what you mean about the "sharing." I've been happy (and successful) in sharing Wilco with others, in the form of burning intro/compilation CDs, sending video/interview links, and ultimately, converting new fans. I just had a hard time envisioning my 16-year old sister-in-law, who worships at the altar of whatever is trendy in pop music (like the Feist single), embracing and possibly even loving Wilco...

[Guest Speed Racer]

If you are suggesting that a band trying out material live before recording is indifferent to the audience's response, that how a song is played is not affected by how people respond to it -- in person, as a live audience or comments on a fan site, that's silly.

 

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. Of course the band fleshes material out after they debut it live - look at Spiders for chrissake. But on the other hand, look at Spiders. The band received very, very favorable reactions when it debuted in 2002, and recorded an entirely different version that they could assume audiences might be a little surprised by, because that was the version they felt would fit the record, and that was the song they wanted to record. A lot of people still consider the 2002 version to be their favorite. Then there was "Let's Fight," of course, which thank god hasn't seen the light and - if the heavens really smile upon us - has never been put to tape.

 

Point being, of course Wilco listens to audience reaction, and sometimes they listen. To think that the audience reaction will ultimately be the guiding force in the studio is a bit off, in my opinion. I have a really hard time thinking Jeff (or anyone) said, "You know that ending? I don't know, I'm playing the song live and everyone's going wild, and then that ending...we lose the crowd. We should probably change the ending - don't you think this [plays a bit] will definitely hold people's attention better?" I think it's a lot more probable that Wilco, the band that recorded about nine strikingly different versions of C/Kamera, probably just tried the song with a different ending and it stuck.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I just had a hard time envisioning my 16-year old sister-in-law, who worships at the altar of whatever is trendy in pop music (like the Feist single), embracing and possibly even loving Wilco...

 

To me, these sentiments (and I don't intend to speak for you, it's just easiest to quote you right now) are a mark of our terminal uniqueness. "I like Wilco, because the music speaks to *me.*" A lot of us can wrap our heads around sharing this music with the cool (and uncool) people on the message boards, a lot of people want to share this music with people in our life whom we value and respect, but to think that some 15 year-old gum-chewing, Blackberry-conjoined girl heard "You & I" on the radio and then suddenly just loves YHF - well, I think there are some people who would argue that she can't connect to Wilco the way they can.

 

Music, to me, is not much different than a spiritual experience; evaluating someone else's connection, when it has absolutely no relation to my enjoyment or connection[*], is none of my business.

 

[*] this is excepting crowd experiences, because I'm pretty sure there were rude people at Wilco shows back in 1995, too.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I have a really hard time thinking Jeff (or anyone) said, "You know that ending? I don't know, I'm playing the song live and everyone's going wild, and then that ending ... we lose the crowd. We should probably change the ending - don't you think this [plays a bit] will definitely hold people's attention better?" I think it's a lot more probable that Wilco, the band that recorded about nine strikingly different versions of C/Kamera, probably just tried the song with a different ending and it stuck.

You can visualize it however you want. The most likely explanation I can offer is that it's cross-intuitive: Wilco band members evolve the composition and performance of a song based on crowd reaction, fan reaction and their own reaction because the tastes of artist and fans has to be symbiotic to maintain the music community.

 

You think all the pissing and moaning of Nels Cline and his "shredding" don't get back to the band, don't pummel the artist enough that he/they don't take a step back, say "*% that" and take another tack?

 

In short, I think within the relationship of artist and fan, each are challenging/constraining one another. For either to put blinders on jeopardizes or eliminates the relationship.

[Central Scrutinizer]

To me, these sentiments (and I don't intend to speak for you, it's just easiest to quote you right now) are a mark of our terminal uniqueness. "I like Wilco, because the music speaks to *me.*" A lot of us can wrap our heads around sharing this music with the cool (and uncool) people on the message boards, a lot of people want to share this music with people in our life whom we value and respect, but to think that some 15 year-old gum-chewing, Blackberry-conjoined girl heard "You & I" on the radio and then suddenly just loves YHF - well, I think there are some people who would argue that she can't connect to Wilco the way they can.

 

Music, to me, is not much different than a spiritual experience; evaluating someone else's connection, when it has absolutely no relation to my enjoyment or connection[*], is none of my business.

 

[*] this is excepting crowd experiences, because I'm pretty sure there were rude people at Wilco shows back in 1995, too.

 

See, but I think this is exactly why it IS your business. The artist creates outside of you, and without audience and response (critique) it is an empty exercise. The artist would have no reason to leave his living room, no reason to open the door so that any sound could get out. It is how you assimilate the music that develops your taste (I like this, I don't like that, he sounds like the other guy). If it was not your business, or you had no intrinsic value in sharing your opinion or building and exploring your tastes, you wouldn't be on a band bulletin board; you wouldn't be commenting on others' views of what they hear.

 

It's not just the live performance. It is the community; how artists embody style, fashion, other media, slang/dialect/language, that creates, builds/destroys the artist-fan relationship. "Just a fan"? Would a man have written that song unaware of such a relationship?

 

Indeed that is what is great about Tweedy and this band because it is a dynamic, dysfunctional relationship for dysfunctional people. There are all sort of handles to grab hold for the music, from it's musical ramblings (like the cliche of the group of blind people describing an elephant). The band tests the tastes of its audience, but also embraces them, else the "alt-country" folk wouldn't still find kin with the "noise" audience, the folk "freak." Nor would they feel such affront when the band changes directions.

 

And because behind it all, it is a business. It is craft but it is also career, job, function. Supply and demand (I guess this goes back to the guy's comments). To quote Paul Simon, "got to keep the customer satisfied."

[MCHowdy]

You can visualize it however you want. The most likely explanation I can offer is that it's cross-intuitive: Wilco band members evolve the composition and performance of a song based on crowd reaction, fan reaction and their own reaction because the tastes of artist and fans has to be symbiotic to maintain the music community.

 

You think all the pissing and moaning of Nels Cline and his "shredding" don't get back to the band, don't pummel the artist enough that he/they don't take a step back, say "*% that" and take another tack?

 

In short, I think within the relationship of artist and fan, each are challenging/constraining one another. For either to put blinders on jeopardizes or eliminates the relationship.

 

 

This post, along with your post just below it, is very well put, very thoughtful. Performance art is especially susceptible to forces beyond just the artist's alone, and that's true whether the artist wants to be influenced or not. None of us are uninfluenced by our environment. A band that plays as many shows as Wilco is not going to go into the studio one month and suddenly achieve a clean slate.

 

I've been a musician my entire life, and it's always thrilling/frightening to debut a new song. Afterwards it's always the first thing spoken of, and always in terms of "I wonder what they liked/didn't like." That dialogue, however subtle, can change the direction of a song.

[Guest Speed Racer]

See, but I think this is exactly why it IS your business.

 

Whoever else likes Wilco, or why they like Wilco, or whether they are worthy of liking Wilco, or whether too many people like Wilco, is not my business. I enjoy chatting with other people who like Wilco, I enjoy going to shows, and I enjoy passing on Wilco shows to other people, but it's not my business to evaluate why anyone does or does not like the band.

 

ETA: To have written your post, you have to have misread my intentions in the post you quote. I'm not talking abou the artist/fan/audience relationship at all here. Rather, I'm addressing people who want to "keep" Wilco as their secret band, or people who complain that too many people like Wilco. I address the fan/audience/artist relationship in my previous post, but not that one.

[Guest Speed Racer]

The artist would have no reason to leave his living room

 

He succeeded for a long time without leaving his living room, so to speak.

[Guest Speed Racer]

You think all the pissing and moaning of Nels Cline and his "shredding" don't get back to the band, don't pummel the artist enough that he/they don't take a step back, say "*% that" and take another tack?

 

The band has stated numerous times that they follow the boards occasionally, and I don't doubt that they read their own reviews. There is no way anyone can hear any criticism of their behavior and conduct that behavior again without at least thinking about the criticism. Nothing happens in a vacuum; I never said anything happens in a vacuum.

 

Simply, I disagree with the statement that W(TA) was consciously recorded as an album intended to reach a new market for the band.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Whoever else likes Wilco, or why they like Wilco, or whether they are worthy of liking Wilco, or whether too many people like Wilco, is not my business. I enjoy chatting with other people who like Wilco, I enjoy going to shows, and I enjoy passing on Wilco shows to other people, but it's not my business to evaluate why anyone does or does not like the band.

 

ETA: To have written your post, you have to have misread my intentions in the post you quote. I'm not talking abou the artist/fan/audience relationship at all here. Rather, I'm addressing people who want to "keep" Wilco as their secret band, or people who complain that too many people like Wilco. I address the fan/audience/artist relationship in my previous post, but not that one.

I was taking your comments directly, and not considering them within the context of the discussion, and may in fact have been subconsciously addressing the two posts (although I thought I took them in order ). So I apologize if that was the case.

 

But to address your first paragraph, I think it is unavoidable that it becomes your business because you are interacting with other people and that interaction colors your views -- even if it's "how the intercourse did these idiots turn their computer on, let alone log into Via Chicago?!?"

 

The band has stated numerous times that they follow the boards occasionally, and I don't doubt that they read their own reviews. There is no way anyone can hear any criticism of their behavior and conduct that behavior again without at least thinking about the criticism. Nothing happens in a vacuum; I never said anything happens in a vacuum.

 

Simply, I disagree with the statement that W(TA) was consciously recorded as an album intended to reach a new market for the band.

O.K. On your simple statement I heartily concur.

[Guest Speed Racer]

But to address your first paragraph, I think it is unavoidable that it becomes your business because you are interacting with other people and that interaction colors your views -- even if it's "how the intercourse did these idiots turn their computer on, let alone log into Via Chicago?!?"

 

I like Chipotle. I don't care who else does, or whether they like it as much as I do, why they like it, or what their favorite item to order there is. Aside from the, "IfnoonegoesandthentheycloseOMGOMGOMGit'syourbusiness!!!!" retort, it's not my business.

 

I was alone the first time I heard Being There. I didn't need anyone else to tell me that day that Wilco was amazing. I was alone the first time I heard Leave Me Like You Found Me. I didn't need anyone else to tell me it was one of the worst noises put to tape, ever. I enjoy discussing these opinions with other people.

[Gobias Industries]

BT

W(tA)

AGIB

YHF

SBS

ST

AM

 

YHF, SBS, and ST are all pretty clumped together though. It's become harder and harder to listen to anything other than W(tA) recently though. Not sure why.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I like Chipotle. I don't care who else does, or whether they like it as much as I do, why they like it, or what their favorite item to order there is. Aside from the, "IfnoonegoesandthentheycloseOMGOMGOMGit'syourbusiness!!!!" retort, it's not my business.

 

I was alone the first time I heard Being There. I didn't need anyone else to tell me that day that Wilco was amazing. I was alone the first time I heard Leave Me Like You Found Me. I didn't need anyone else to tell me it was one of the worst noises put to tape, ever. I enjoy discussing these opinions with other people.

 

How did you come to try Chipolte? Did someone recommend it? Did you ask about it before you ventured upon it? The first time you sought it out. Why? It's not of my business, but you didn't happen upon an impromptu Chipolte. Someone developed the menu, decor, entrees, determined dining layout, how customers would be seated, waited on -- the dining experience all hammered out to entice you or people you know who would recommend meeting there. If you go with someone, and order different entrees, you may offer each other a taste.

 

Even if you went to Chipolte the first time alone, as you listened to Being There, you brought your whole range of experience -- based on advice (or repelled by bad advice), previous tastes, restaurant suggestions, food choices. How does one determine, for instance, that a jalapeno should be smoked and that it creates a whole other amazing flavor? Who would wander, uninitiated upon adabo sauce and say, "gee I want to put that in my mouth!"

 

I may not care why you eat there, but I may want to try it. You may suggest a band, or an eccentric performer and I may want to give him a listen. I enjoy discussing opinions with other people. The interplay changes your view of the world, and one another.