is our kids getting more dumber?

[Atticus]

I made the unfortunate mistake of listening to NPR on the way to work this morning. They were interviewing Diane Ravitch about her book The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education. Scared the crap out of me.

 

I know there are some teachers lurking around here, and perhaps some folks with opinions. Are things really as bad as they sound?

 

Ms. Ravitch pointed out that No Child Left Behind and other "incentives" have resulted in state standardized testing that is incomprehensibly bass-ackwards (a score of 44% is considered "proficient" in one state--I think it was Illinois). She made other points to numerous to outline here--just curious if my crotchety-old-guy ranting about "these kids and their rap music and video games and meth-texting" is perhaps more than just generational grumbling...

 

oh, and good morning!

[SarahC]

I think No Child Left Behind was the stupidest thing we've ever done as a country concerning education.

 

My personal experience in the public school system, at least from an educational standpoint, was alright. Could it have been better? Absolutely, especially if those damn standardized tests were taken out of the equation. If every student learns at a different level the idea of measuring each against the other is ridiculous. There's too much pressure on the teachers I think, and having to waste time on getting kids up to the government "standard" takes time away from spending it actually teaching. For instance, from 6th to 12th grade I learned absolutely nothing new in science class. Instead I got the same concepts over and over, because that was what was on the test. Bullshit, right there man.

[fatheadfred]

They Dept. of Ed. mentioned they are gutting No Child Left Behind, as well as the stupid name of the campaign.

 

Choice is bad? Hmmm. I'll have to listen to the broadcast. Choice should be the centerpiece of an empowering educational philosophy.

[uncool2pillow]

Poon, is it a score of 44% or the 44th percentile? In Iowa, we use the good ole ITBS to determine proficiency. Students have to be above the 44th percentile based upon students who took the test in 2001. While statistically feasible, it's basically impossible because the test is designed to create a bell curve. Other states use more criterion-based tests and that's more reasonable.

 

In general, I was and am against NCLB because I think local control is, in general, better. I think it's hilarious that my fellow conservatives rail against our socialist president, but he's the one who's talking about returning control to the local level.

 

One of the scariest trends in public education today is happening in your own back yard, Poon. Texas's requirements for textbook adoption affect the whole country.

 

Most of the change I've noticed in public education over the past 17 years simply reflects our changing demographics. More non-English speakers, more kids identified with learning or emotional disorders, etc. It makes our job more challenging, but I think the vast majority of kids at my school are learning well.

[fatheadfred]

Ravitch is a dope. One of the founders of No Child Left Behind acting like she was unaware of the impacts this philosophy would have....k. Trying to save face and sell a book.

[Guest Speed Racer]

My own experience with high school and middle school where that middle school was supposed to teach me how to behave in school, so that in high school I could learn how to learn, so that I could go to college. My peers and family members who are now in education support this idea, to an extent.

 

As a white, upperclass kid whose parents sent her to educational summer camps at a young age, it was VERY easy for me to see that I was given a lot of advantages that many of my white, upperclass peers had, but that few other students had. Our districts started tracking in elementary school math class, starting around 5th grade. About 5 of us were withdrawn from our class to meet up with 10 other 5th graders, and we started learning algebra; those kids were my classmates up through high school, and the rest of my 5th grade class I really only saw at gym and lunch in high school.

 

I think my high school tracked too much, and didn't allow lmid and lower track kids any room for mobility; surely many of the kids I never saw would have done adequately in an honors history class (heavy reading, heavy writing) instead of the regular track history class (a little reading, rote memorization tests). When teachers don't expect much from you, it's easy to expect less of yourself.

 

Ooooh, rant time! It's not only about expectations of your students, but expectations of the teachers that have preceded you. Our English classes (the honors ones, at least), were about reading literature, and picking up literary criticism and theory. I knew NOTHING of grammar because I was never taught advanced grammar in elementary or middle schools. The high school teachers thought we already should have been taught that (nevermind the fact that we weren't - we SHOULD have been), so we never even got a one-day review until my senior AP English class - on the day we were supposed to bring in our college application essays. All of a sudden, our poor grammar was a really big deal - nevermind the fact that it had sucked for the three preceding years.

 

I read an article in my hometown paper last week that a computer science teacher, of all people, started a reading and writing mentoring program after school, funded out of his own pocket, that has been doing really, really well. Kids come in to work on their papers or reading assignments, and he and volunteer students proofread things for them and help them learn grammar concepts that no one ever really taught them. A lot of students have brought their reading levels and paper grades up, and he's campaigning with their advisors to get them out of the regular- and remedial- track English classes.

[Guest Speed Racer]

One of my favorite teachers at my high school (AP U.S. History) spent a class period talking about how are textbooks were written. He noted that we had the GBI edition - girls, blacks and Indians! - because after the regular chapter were two paragraphs titled "Women in the Revolutionary War," then two paragraphs titled, "African-Americans in the Revolutionary War," and finally, "American Indians in the Revolutionary War." Instead of integrating the topics into the chapters, they were always tacked on to the end in later editions. He joked that when our grandchildren were in high school, all three sections would finally be integrated into the chapter, which would be followed by two paragraphs titled, "Gays in the Revolutionary War."

[fatheadfred]

Too much survey of material, too little depth of understanding. Teach them how to learn, not what to learn.

[Lammycat]

 

 

In general, I was and am against NCLB because I think local control is, in general, better. I think it's hilarious that my fellow conservatives rail against our socialist president, but he's the one who's talking about returning control to the local level.

 

 

Most of the change I've noticed in public education over the past 17 years simply reflects our changing demographics. More non-English speakers, more kids identified with learning or emotional disorders, etc. It makes our job more challenging, but I think the vast majority of kids at my school are learning well.

I agree with giving more control/autonomy to a localized educational system. Problem is that the big money comes from federal funding. How to raise money locally/state-wide without becomes an issue. One of the main gidsts of NCLB is the over-used "accountability" issue. At it's core, standardized testing/accountability, I have no issue with that part of NCLB. I take issue with tying funds into it, though, and casting the onus entirely upon individual schools based solely on the test score results. There needs to be accountability at a lot of levels, not just the individual school score results. It's absurd to base the "success" or "failure" of a school, it's teachers, and it's students solely on the standardized tests.

 

And choice is key, I agree. More choice is now offered due to "failing" schools. Is this a good thing? In a roundabout way, I guess it is. Charter schools breaking away from traditional classroom and curricular structures are increasing in numbers and in successes (in what forms successes can be qualitative and quantitatively measured). I like this trewnd. I think, in general, the way kids learn is changing and that traditional schools are step behind.

 

Too much survey of material, too little depth of understanding. Teach them how to learn, not what to learn.

Metacognitive skills have always been a part of the teaching, as long as I've been doing it at least.

[fatheadfred]

College students are struggling with metacognitive thinking. I guess you could say many adults are losing this ability as well.

[Guest Speed Racer]

College students are struggling with metacognitive thinking. I guess you could say many adults are losing this ability as well.

 

That's a pretty sweeping generalization, and I that doesn't mean it's not a part of the education system. That you suggest adults are "losing this ability as well" implies that there's something more than the 18-and-under education system at work.

 

Just because people have the ability to think for themselves doesn't mean they will (or even should) exercise it, nor does it mean that their conclusions will be the "right" ones.

[cryptique]

College students are struggling with metacognitive thinking. I guess you could say many adults are losing this ability as well.

 

"Meta-what?"

[Guest Runaway Jim]

(AP U.S. History)

 

Best class I ever took.

[Good Old Neon]

Stupid shit like this certainly isn't helping...

 

Texas Conservatives Win Curriculum Change

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

[SarahC]

 

"Meta-what?"

oh man, that's funny.

[Atticus]

 

"Meta-what?"

 

9.9

[Atticus]

Stupid shit like this certainly isn't helping...

 

Texas Conservatives Win Curriculum Change

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

 

christ...

[fatheadfred]

That's a pretty sweeping generalization, and I that doesn't mean it's not a part of the education system. That you suggest adults are "losing this ability as well" implies that there's something more than the 18-and-under education system at work.

 

Just because people have the ability to think for themselves doesn't mean they will (or even should) exercise it, nor does it mean that their conclusions will be the "right" ones.

 

Sweeping generalization is a dirty phrase for a macro level perspective, is it not? Yes, it is difficult to single out one societal component as the root.

 

That second statement. Kinda makes it sound like thinking is difficult to do, arduous. Placing value judgements upon people's thoughts isn't productive either. Who is ever right? Looking back on your life you will see a large body of learning, whether your thoughts at the time are right or wrong doesn't change the concept that you've learned. Does the dogma of right or wrong prevent experiential learning? You bet it does.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Sweeping generalization is a dirty phrase for a macro level perspective, is it not?

 

No, I thought it was a phrase implying that you're saying what you want with little interest in whether facts back them up. Oddly enough, not at all meta-what thinking.

 

Does the dogma of right or wrong prevent experiential learning? You bet it does.

 

You totally missed what I was getting at, but that's okay, I probably phrased it poorly. I was insinuating that you disagree with what a lot of people think, and therefore devalue their ability to meta-what think.

[Edie]

christ...

 

That is ugly. Just this sentence is terrifying:

 

“We are adding balance,” said Dr. Don McLeroy, the leader of the conservative faction on the board, after the vote. “History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left.”

[Guest Speed Racer]

Hoping that it doesn't detract from the main thread too much:

 

I am appalled that Illinois is one of the few states that has just high (read: reasonable) physical education requirements. Illinois requires 7 semesters of PE in high school, which is about 6 more semesters than any other state I've heard of. That's all sorts of fucked up, and I do think that level of activity does contribute to academic success.

[Good Old Neon]

That is ugly. Just this sentence is terrifying:

 

“We are adding balance,” said Dr. Don McLeroy, the leader of the conservative faction on the board, after the vote. “History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left.”

 

Yep - these people shouldn’t even be allowed to decide what pretty pictures are included in one of those coloring books they sometimes give children at like, Applebees, nevermind anything having to do with history or science or economics or, like, reality.

[LouieB]

Just chiming in on a small issue here. NCLB is the totality of federal aid to education. Those aspects of it that are ridiculous and counter productive should be taken out to be sure, but there are many aspects of the entire bill (which is only called NCLB because of Bush) which are perfectly fine, including massive amount of funds to help local schools and many special initiatives that even liberals like (since this law was cosponsored by Ted Kennedy).

 

LouieB

[borracho]

after 15 or so years in fundraising, my wife is going back to college to get her elementary education degree... she's got her work cut out for her when she graduates...

[Vacant Horizon]

Small class sizes.

 

Obama a socialist? more of a nice kinda liberal Repblican.

 

the county i live in is a clusterfuck of an education system as a result of nepotism and racism that no one wants to talk about.

 

 

as for it being a mistake to listen to NPR, no joke. great way to increase anxiety on the way to and from work in already stressful traffic.