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we owe 81 trillion?? 114 trillion?? why dont you guys just tell each other we owe a bazillion and a half dollars. it would be as believable.


see you realize the trick there sparky. they are adding up what we owe before we have to pay it and calling it "unfunded mandates" but the bill isnt due and the money hasnt been collected. anyway, you knew that


that chart is a pile of shit as well (those "notes" make you want to puke)

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What is amazing to me is that we spent trillions to bail out Merril Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc... but the tea partiers threw a fit about spending a few million to keep people from getting foreclosed on because they "got in above their heads" or whatever. Pathetic. The 20 people that run this country know what they are doing. Keep us fighting the other side while they steal us blind.

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You don't get it yet. Why do you all defend this path to disaster that our nation is traveling? Both parties are responsible. OK?? I'm not taking sides here. I've told you they all support bigger and bigger government. Why is it okay for Obama, Democrats, etc. to continue the same failed policies that Bush, Republicans, neo-cons etc., and the Democrats before them and the Republicans before them, forced upon us? Where is the money coming from to pay whatever amount of trillions we owe and are going to owe? Are we going to have to pay 100 % of what we earn some day to support this ever growing socialist society? Are we going to print trillions of more worthless dollars? Are we going to continue to fight costly endless wars? This has to stop. Unfortunately you all think we have to continue the same failed policies that have not worked. Do you think they are going to work if we only spend a few trillion more? That's insane...

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You don't get it yet. Why do you all defend this path to disaster that our nation is traveling? Both parties are responsible. OK?? I'm not taking sides here. I've told you they all support bigger and bigger government. Why is it okay for Obama, Democrats, etc. to continue the same failed policies that Bush, Republicans, neo-cons etc., and the Democrats before them and the Republicans before them, forced upon us? Where is the money coming from to pay whatever amount of trillions we owe and are going to owe? Are we going to have to pay 100 % of what we earn some day to support this ever growing socialist society? Are we going to print trillions of more worthless dollars? Are we going to continue to fight costly endless wars? This has to stop. Unfortunately you all think we have to continue the same failed policies that have not worked. Do you think they are going to work if we only spend a few trillion more? That's insane...


I would tend to agree that both parties are servants to corporations and fiscally irresponsible. At this point for me it's things like the Environment, health care, abortion, gay rights... that put me squarely in the democrat camp.

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Why do you think the Deomocrats are going to satisfy you on these issues? Government sponsored health care has not curtailed rising costs nor has it improved medical care for the people. Should we continue to follow these policies just because a Democrat supports them? Think beyond party. We need to create a new paradigm or a new political organization based on getting the government out of our lives. The bigger the government, the less freedom we have. Abortion and gay rights are distraction issues. They are not issues the federal government or presidential candidates should even be concerned with. These are issues that should be left to the individual or the states just like education or gambling. Do you think that government guarantees of covering liability issues for nuclear energy companies could actually harm the environment by reducing their share of responsibility if something goes wrong? It's similar to the government guarantees we have given to banks in the way of bailouts. Moral hazard anyone? The risk should be placed on the company not the American taxpayer.


Bigger and bigger government either the Republican version or the Democrat version is still big government and not the solution to our growing problems...


In economic theory, moral hazard is a tendency to take undue risks because the costs are not borne by the party taking the risk. The term defines a situation where the behavior of one party may change to the detriment of another after a transaction has taken place. For example, a person with insurance against automobile theft may be less cautious about locking their car, because the negative consequences of vehicle theft are now (partially) the responsibility of the insurance company. A party makes a decision about how much risk to take, while another party bears the costs if things go badly, and the party insulated from risk behaves differently from how it would if it were fully exposed to the risk.

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So Sparky who is it you are flogging here? You a die in the wool libertarian who wants to close down the government entirely? Go ahead fess up.


Everyone believes the deficit is too high and that both parties are responsible. The rest is just BS in thin air. Until we have the national will to deal with it things will continue on as they are. But there are many other issues out there besides the deficit which do impact folks lives and which people do pay attention to. All this thread is - is about who is going to be president next. Clearly it will be between two people, not unlike the Super Bowl. So we know it is now Obama and we also know it is either Romney or slightly possibly Santorium. What's to argue about? Mostly it seems like a good opportunity for you to froth at the mouth. There is not now, nor has there been a third party that is viable. What would that third party look like anyway? Further left, further right, dead center? Even that those advocating a third party can't decide on. Maybe if the Occupy and Tea Party folks got together that would be something, but then again they couldn't agree anyway, so both are out om the fringe, what do REALLY propose?


edit - Not a reader of the Weekly Standard, I didn't realize it was a neocon publicacation. Don't bother answering my rhetorical quesitons, I now KNOW what you are flogging.



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actually thats the thing. both parties arent responsible. President Clinton wrote three balanced budgets and left office with a surplus. President Bush promptly gave tax cuts twice which flushed the whole thing. Before him was President Carter which was trying austerity measures.

Now we have President Obama which anyone who knows ten cents about economics knows that he has to spend more right now because we need to invest short term to recover from a severe recession bordering on depression.

whats more suprising than how fast things change for the worse is how fast the US populace forgets what happened. In Nov 08 NOONE and I MEAN NOONE knew what was gonna happen except for Glen Beck

Sparky what you call govt sponsored health care is The Affordable Care Act which is a watered down version of what we wanted to do and is nothing but REPUBLICAN proposals from years back to pay off insurance companies. The thing is completely revenue neutral and govt doesnt control shit.


Again with your "what are we gonna do about the debt" stuff look to the president last year agreeing to 3 trillion in cuts to 1 trillion in revenue from the top 5 percent. You and yours poo pood it and it got killed. Next time the people will speak and then well get it done and balance the budget and then the american people will take it for granted and vote a republican back in and we can start all over again.

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So, I guess we should all be satisfied with Obama and Romney as our choices. Close the thread. There are no issues to discuss. They are both the same anyway. Accept the candidates the establishment have thrust upon us, keep our mouths shut and be happy they even let us vote at all. Ignore the man behind the curtain and enjoy the show. Every thing will turn out alright if we wish really hard or just decide to ignore the real problems. We should continue with the same tried and true policies that have failed repeatedly to revitalize our economy. We should all be happy, willing and eager to pay more of our hard earned money to the government to support our new collectivist society and to send our sons to die in the next great patriotic war that our caring leaders, in their great wisdom, decide to start next. Hell, you and I are never going to get arrested and held without due process or be targeted for assassination by our Nobel Peace Prize winning president. Our emails and phone conversations are of no importance to those who help us maintain the illusion of liberty. It's okay, the president is a Democrat. He promised he would never do that to us. Hey, we're not terrorists anyway. I'm so glad you've eased my concerns and set me straight. Well, Ive got to run, there's a real important story about Whitney Houston on the news.... :usa

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I couldn't have said it better myself...


How betrayed do you have to be before you realize that both parties are against you?

Our country has been robbed. Our future prospects are bleak. Trillions of dollars have been looted from the economy and no one in our government is holding the thieves accountable – Obama is not, the Democrats are not and the Republicans are not. They are all pivotal accomplices in the continued rape of our country. So stop deluding yourself into believing that only the opposing party is to blame. Focusing on one party as the source of our problems is journalistically lazy and intellectually naïve. Dig deeper! Follow the money. Focus on the people who fund both parties.


The Two-Party Oligarchy Vs. The People

Our current economic crisis has proven that the Democrat versus Republican dynamic is obsolete, the only thing that matters now is us versus them. When I say “us,” I mean 99% of the US population. When I say “them,” I mean the ruling class. The ruling class includes Republicans, Democrats, and more importantly, the people and corporations who fund them. That is the dividing line. Adhere to it. Otherwise you are playing into their divide-and-conquer strategy, and you are complicit in our demise.


The mainstream corporate media continually propagates the rhetoric of division, you don’t need to add to it. We are all on this sinking ship together and we don’t have much time left to turn things around. So let’s drop the tired old labels and focus on uniting people, not dividing them.

Every time you want to write the word “Republicans” or “Democrats,” just change it to “the two-party oligarchy.” If you do that, you will gain credibility and influence, and we may actually get some of the change that you claim to want.


Obviously we are going to have strong disagreements on many issues, but there are key issues that we must urgently come together on, or we will all continue our downward spiral.


As famed military strategist Carl von Clauswitz wrote in his study On War, it is pivotal to strike at “the center of gravity,” at “the hub of all power and movement, on which everything depends.” Or as Henry David Thoreau said, “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.”


Let’s heed their advice and strike at “the center of gravity,” at “the root” of our problems.

Here are the seven key issues that keep 99% of the US population without political representation:

1) The two-party system;

2) Campaign finance;

3) Lobbying;

4) The revolving door;

5) The concentration of media ownership;

6) The big banks;

7) The rule of law does not apply to the richest one-tenth of one percent of the population.

Until the rule of law is applied, and until all of these issues are resolved, we will continue to live in a banana republic where the government will not have the trust or the consent of the governed, and rightfully so.


This isn’t rocket science, this is common sense. If we can focus and organize on these core common-ground issues, we can win this war.


So don’t be a partisan hack!


Stop fighting yesterday’s war. Stop playing the lesser-of-two-evils game. Transcend the two-party oligarchy. Grow up, evolve. Adapt to the quickly changing and deteriorating environment. The time for slight change is over, half-measures will no longer suffice. It’s up to the Independent media to demonstrate a new way forward.


Fight the war that is in front of us.


We need bold leadership and radical change, and we need it now.



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weve got bold leadership and change and things are obviously getting better. i am super proud of the president and the job hes done so far. look forward to four more years hopefully and we can keep moving in the right direction and start paying down the debt. thats what the democrats want to do and with another term we'll get it done


the title of the article you linked to is


"Is It Time for Law Abiding American Citizens to Stop Paying Their Taxes and Start a New Government?"


i hate to say it but do you realize how lucky you are to live where you do when you do??

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Don't worry things are getting better. Just ask these folks...




Video: BBC Panorama Show- Poor in America Plus What The BBC Did Not Say


Posted on February 17, 2012 by horse237




I would like to make a few comments on what this video documentary below does not say.



It does not say that both Republican and Democratic leaders supported NAFTA which sent 50,000 manufacturing plants overseas.

It does say that Obama spent billions on Detroit’s auto industry. That was highly misleading. He spent billions so the car industry could relocate to China, Brazil and eastern Europe. No plan for American jobs. He did require that dealerships owned by Republicans be closed.

No mention that the real unemployment rate is 22.6% and the real inflation rate is 11.6%. No mention that Obama and the Republicans are giving away one million Green Cards every year to foreign workers when there are millions of Americans timing out of their long term unemployment. 1.2 million Americans timed out of the labor force in December which created the illusion of a lower unemployment rate and boosted Obama 4 points in the polls. No mention of the illegal aliens taking jobs and swelling the ranks of the welfare class straining resources including healthcare for the poor. Whenever people in the media are confronted about the impact of legal and illegal immigration, they always say America is the richest nation in the world.

I also did not see any criticism of the cost of ten years of wars for Israel.

I did not even expect to see any criticism of the Federal Reserve which creates money through debt and interest. This is as opposed to the debt free money of colonial America, Lincoln’s Greenbacks and Kennedy’s Executive Order 11110 which created money without debt and interest. It seems Presidential assassins dislike debt free money as much as Wall Street does. Our interest bearing debt based money creates Unpayable Debts by design to destroy our economy and transfer wealth from us to Wall Street. No mention of that or the outright theft of tens of trillions through Mortgage fraud and Credit Default Swaps. No mention of Wall Street criminality as a source of inequality.

As for Obama’s healthcare, it was written by the insurance industry and offered no savings other than death panels for poor people.

I will admit that both Republicans and Democrats came across as ideologues with no clue as to what is happening in the real world.




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Okay now quoting someone from the Heritage Foundation. Really?


Actually I am hoping for alot more Santorum rather than Rommey. But that's just me.


Thinking that Obama is the only president under which personal liberty has been an issue is simply ridiculous. Does the federal (or state or local) governmemt(s) sometimes run roughshod over personal and private liberties. Yup. Did Obama invent that? Nope.


I am not saying anyone should be happy or unhappy with those running for president. That's a personal perogative. I am fine with Obama running again. I plan to vote for him, since I am not voting for either Romney or Santorum. Hoping that someone else is going to be president is just a waste of time and energy, the same as actually listening to crap that any neocon says. I am all in favor of responsible conservatism. We need a whole lot of that these days.


Oh and who is so concerned about personal privacy. Not the right wing. They are interested in controlling people';s bodies, not just what they write or think. Go figure.


(It must get to Sparky that Wilco supports Obama. OMG, he also listens to their music and takes their money.)



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Don't worry things are getting better. Just ask these folks...




That was quite a good program. I'm surprised any of that stuff would be any great shock to people, though. Apart from the bit where the traumatised little girl says her mum cooked her a rat. If you were feeding your kid rat you'd make a point of hiding the fact to your kid, wouldn't you? That shocked me. Anyway . . . "Can We Eat Rats?" . . . "Yes We Can!"

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Lou, I don't get where you come off accusing me of being a neo-con sympathizer. I guess you haven't read my posts very carefully. Wanting to end our wars overseas, stopping torture and closing American concentration camps for our so-called captured enemy combatants, isn't what I would call supporting the neo-con way. I look for information from all sources be it the National Review or the The Nation. I'm not afraid to read something I don't agree with. That's how one learns to shape opinions and to educate oneself. It's healthy to absorb different points of view. That's how one grows intellectually.


Republican Congressman and libertarian leaning 2012 Presidential candidate Ron Paul has been a long time critic of the neoconservative movement as an attack on freedom and the U.S. Constitution, including an extensive speech on the House floor addressing neoconservative roots and how neoconservatism is neither new nor conservative. That speech can be seen in a variety of places online.


I found it for you...




Sounds to me Obama has taken a few nips of the neo-con Kool Aid ...


I never said Obama started this stuff but has done nothing to stop it despite his campaign pledges to do just that back in 2008 when he was viewed as the savior. That's why I voted for him even though I had my doubts. What has been done by Obama to curtail the assaults on our personal liberties carried out by the TSA at our airports? Why did he sign the NDAA and ACTA and extend the Patriot Act if he is so concerned with our civil liberties? Come on man, do a google search and see what you find. Stop watching MSNBC, FOX and CNN. Have some intellectual curiosity. Like the article posted before, don't be a political hack supporting failed policies that don't work.


Another case of the current admisnistration protecting our liberties by taking them away...


FOIA Documents Reveal Homeland Security is Monitoring Political Dissent:




This campaign is not over. No one has been nominated yet. Ron Paul is a legitimate candidate despite your dismissal of him. He is picking up more delegates each primary and caucus. If he does become a third party candidate he will draw more votes from Obama than he will the Republican nominee. He is winning the support of those very same young people who were fooled by Obama. Some people still think the Constitution, sound money, free markets and peace are worth voting for.


Ron Paul’s Surprisingly Young Support Base


by Andrew Romano


Why does the oldest Republican in the race attract the youngest supporters? Andrew Romano on the paradox of the Texas congressman’s base.


Read more here:




Why The Young People Support Ron Paul Is NOT About Doing Drugs


The support that Ron Paul is getting from the youth of America is unfounded. It by far trumps what Obama received in 2008, and yet the GOP establishment uses this as a reason why one should not elect Ron Paul, their excuse being something to the fact that all he wants to do is legalize drugs and prostitution. But it is more than that, and for a youth who has become so disenchanted from their results in voting in 2008, Ron Paul 2012 is a revolution.


Read more:



Ugh oh...


An Economy Built to Crash


Geithner admits Obama's budget 'unsustainable' for second year in row



President Obama described his fiscal year 2013 budget – the most expensive in United States history – as “a blueprint for an economy that is built to last.”


But even his own Treasury Secretary does not agree with that assessment.


For the second year in row, Timothy Geithner

before the Senate Budget Committee that President Obama’s budget takes no action to meaningfully reform entitlement programs, putting us on an “unsustainable” fiscal course.


“Even if Congress were to enact this budget,” Geithner said, “we would still be left with–in the outer decades as millions of Americans retire–what are still unsustainable commitments in Medicare and Medicaid.

In fact, Geithner










Enjoy Bush's 4th term....


Only 36 more posts in this thread until I reach 1,000. :stunned

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again this is where the part about compromising but dont want to.


if nancy pelosi, joe biden, brack obama, and harry reid had there way we would close guantanamo in the morning. we cannot do it. 60 percent or more of americans have zero problem with it at all and wouldnt care if we executed everyone sitting in there.



the good news is things are WAY better on that front as well. i think theres less than 150 people left there (down from 800) and half of those have been cleared for release.



we had to do it this way we could not close it down immediately. we had to compromise.

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the good news is things are WAY better on that front as well. i think theres less than 150 people left there (down from 800) and half of those have been cleared for release.


That's good because they've got a lot more work to do here....


A concrete-and-sheet metal facility that was retrofitted with wire pens and wooden isolation cells, the center is part of Bagram Air Base in the ancient city of Bagram near Charikar in Parvan, Afghanistan.


In January 2010, the American military released the names of 645 detainees held at the main detention center at Bagram, modifying its long-held position against publicizing such information. This list was prompted by a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed in September 2009 by the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawyers had also demanded detailed information about conditions, rules and regulations


Bagram: The other Guantanamo?





Colonel Morris Davis: "America is the Land of the Constrained and the Cowardly"


Witness Against Torture's Fast for Justice - Day 8: Former Chief Prosecutor for Guantánamo and 25-year military veteran Colonel Morris Davis speaks about the cowardice of America - particularly that of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney - in not taking a stand to close Guantánamo.



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dont even get me started on ron paul being a stink ass racist.


You haven't any legs to stand on when debating the real issues so you might as well throw some mud. Isn't that what politicians do when they have no credibility left on the issues that really mean something? It's tough arguing against the Constitution, liberty and peace isn't it?.


Some racist...




The key question is now: is Ron Paul a racist? The answer is an unequivocal no.

What the mainstream media, and to a certain extent the general public, have to realize is that genuine libertarians cannot be racist. Nevermind what Paul has stated in books, documentaries, speeches and interviews for the past 30 years. As Paul elucidated nearly four years ago, libertarians do not see people as groups. Everyone has the same rights and no one should receive special treatment. This means that a homosexual person has just as much equal rights as a black person. A religious individual has the same rights as an atheist. Of course, we’re not talking about a right to a house, a right to health care or a right to someone else’s property. A person has the right to liberty, freedom and their own property. If a libertarian is racist then it completely negates their own message. I generally don’t maintain a lot of enemies or abhor individuals – I’m basically a recluse and just write. As a libertarian, though, if I dislike a person it would be because of their moral character not because of their skin color, religious affiliation or sexual orientation. Genuine libertarians would not detest an individual because they’re black or a Mormon. In the end, we are all human beings and we should all be equally treated. If the establishment wants to discuss racism and discrimination, it should look in the mirror. No one is more discriminatory than the government. We won’t go down that road, though, because as the possible Republican winner has stated in the past: “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.”

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ron paul used to be involved with the spotlight back in the 80s i think.


my buddies dad used to get that.



all they ever talked about was the centralized bank and the NWO and the bilderbergs


never seen a more anti semetic racist rag than that


of course not one word they ever said came true



heres something from the front page today of pauls paper the american free press


"The release of a new documentary on the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City entitled A Noble Lie* has brought with it a renewed examination of who was behind the attack that killed 168 innocent men, women and children on April 19, 1995. Did a criminal cabal within the U.S. government plan, coordinate and execute this tragic event? Or was it merely a “sting” operation “gone bad”? : shake


heres another


"ATLANTA, Ga.—Although most Americans don’t know it because of a news blackout, on Jan. 26 the issue of Obama’s eligibility to be president was finally heard by a lawfully seated state judge in Atlanta, Ga. Administrative Judge Michael Malihi will render his decision “sometime in February” as to what he will recommend to the secretary of state of Georgia, in whose hands the final decision lies."

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