General Political Thread

[Atticus]

 The American people should be lied to by their elected leaders.

 

I just can't get behind this.

[Hixter]

I just can't get behind this.

Oops.   Fixed it.

[KevinG]

How did I know?

 

 

Know what?  What does that even mean?  I struggle sometimes to figure out what you are on about.  

 

Is it worth of a congressional hearing, no.  Is it worth some merit for people to look at and should people be held responsible, yes.  

 

It is foolish to think that this was some sort of high level Administration ploy to get the TEA party and other conservative leaning organizations.  

 

It is passive aggressive BS, by the GOP.  They couldn't beat PBO in 2012 and now they are going to bring him down another way.   

[uncool2pillow]

Here's the problem with the right wing media scandal machine:  If Benghazi or the IRS or something down the road is worthy of actual scandal status it will go largely ignored because they are the Boy Who Cried Wolf since Jan. 20, 2009.

[uncool2pillow]

Not to mention this one, which sounds really chilling and egregious.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/govt-obtains-wide-ap-phone-records-probe-202010831.html

[Tweedling]

Wow. That's some serious shit!

 

[MrRain422]

President Obama didn't break any laws in Benghazi, but if it can be proved that he and his administration didn't act on requests for more security, then he needs to be called on the carpet for it. 

 

But it was congress that rejected funding for more security at the embassies.  So what's this really all about?

[KevinG]

Not to mention this one, which sounds really chilling and egregious.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/govt-obtains-wide-ap-phone-records-probe-202010831.html

 

out of the three scandals out there, this one is the most troubling.  Mainly because it does seem so egregious and at a high level.  Though I am going to reserve judgement until more facts come out.  

[uncool2pillow]

This is bad, very bad.  Heads will roll @ DOJ.  Maybe up to Holder, but you're right.  Still too soon.

[Winston Legthigh]

But it was congress that rejected funding for more security at the embassies.  So what's this really all about?

 

I think the "rejected funding" line has been proven false - at least as it was covered in the hearings so far - I think this was dealt with in one of the initial hearings last fall. IIRC, when they asked the guy in charge of security staffing if the insufficient security was because budgetary constraints, he answered that budget had nothing to do with it.

[LouieB]

out of the three scandals out there, this one is the most troubling.  Mainly because it does seem so egregious and at a high level.  Though I am going to reserve judgement until more facts come out.  

Actually there are only two scandals.  Bengazhi is simply a question of who knew what when and that question has been largely answered   The AP is pretty chilling.  The IRS, pretty stupid.  Strangely the IRS is being run by a Bush appointee. Go figure.

 

edit - A day later and while the IRS thing is irritating and the AP thing is stupid, none of this stuff (including BengazhizI) is up to the level of the full blown disaster of 9/11 on Bush's watch and the full blown lying by the Bush administration that got us into Iraq.  Corruption and stupidity is a human trait that is not limited to the government.  No one likes this stuff, right or left, but it certainly is not something unique. 

 

LouieB

[IRememberDBoon]

I was thinking about the IRS targeting tea party or whatever and remembering back to Bush and Co when there were anti war demonstrations. didn't they like spy on them and plant troublemakers and label them terrorists and what not?
never heard a peep from the media about that.

[Guest Jules]

Who needs the media when we have IRDB?

[Tweedling]

I hope there is never anything like 9/11 again but it is quite a stretch to lay blame at Bush's feet for the radical Muslims that boarded the planes that morning.

Iraq was something different. Weren't there Democrats who also said it should be done?

[KevinG]

I hope there is never anything like 9/11 again but it is quite a stretch to lay blame at Bush's feet for the radical Muslims that boarded the planes that morning.

Iraq was something different. Weren't there Democrats who also said it should be done?

 

off of faulty (or fabricated) intelligence provided by the CIA.  But hindsight is 20/20.  And I hate playing the blame game it is pretty much useless.  

[LouieB]

Blaming anyone for a random act of terror is totally useless.  Even in countries (such as Israel) where they are constantly on the alert for such events, terrorists still manage to blow people up.  So this constant harping on who is to blame for this is just stupid.  My point was not that we should blame the government (although there were indications that there was going to be a terrorist strike around 9/11) for this every time.  Shit happened under Bush, it happened under Obama and it will happen under whomever is the next President.  Nothing was going to stop the guys in Boston or the folks in Benghazi. Nothing to see here.  Time to move on and try and keep it  from happening the next time, if we are lucky. 

 

The same thing goes with the government either engaging in too much or too little oversight by government agencies..  Crap like the IRS issue and the AP reporters is gonna happen, let's stop blaming that on either party, since both do it and neither should. 

 

LouieB

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Blaming anyone for a random act of terror is totally useless.  Even in countries (such as Israel) where they are constantly on the alert for such events, terrorists still manage to blow people up.  So this constant harping on who is to blame for this is just stupid.  My point was not that we should blame the government (although there were indications that there was going to be a terrorist strike around 9/11) for this every time.  Shit happened under Bush, it happened under Obama and it will happen under whomever is the next President.  Nothing was going to stop the guys in Boston or the folks in Benghazi. Nothing to see here.  Time to move on and try and keep it  from happening the next time, if we are lucky. 

 

The same thing goes with the government either engaging in too much or too little oversight by government agencies..  Crap like the IRS issue and the AP reporters is gonna happen, let's stop blaming that on either party, since both do it and neither should. 

 

LouieB

This is all absolutely true. I wasn't being serious in blaming Bush for 9/11...that was one of those deals where you can't tell someone is being sarcastic because it's an internet post. I just like to pretend to blame Bush for everything, because the other side has been blaming Obama for everything since even before he was elected. Maybe people have forgotten, but in 2008 there was much right-wing media speculation that the terrifying prospect of an Obama presidency was the cause for the massive drop in the stock market during Bush's last few months in office. After all, Obama is a commie/pinko/socialist/Marxist/Muslim, so why wouldn't traders be terrified? Then when Obama was inaugurated, the pressure was on for him to immediately "fix the economy," and since that was impossible, it was all his fault again. Unbelievable. Seriously, the guy could cure cancer single-handedly overnight, and somehow it would be an evil plot to institute Sharia law and put grandma in front a death panel.

[LouieB]

At the time, no one blamed Bush for 9/11.  We were relatively unified as a country.  (Well after the fact it became clear that perhaps Bush's folks didn't connect the dots that well.) 

Now with Bengahzi the fact that there was confusion within the first 48 hours as to what exactly happened and maybe some wrangling between the CIA and the State Department caused more confusion, but really there were few disagreements about this issue when the facts finally came out. 

 

It is nothing but partisan BS now.  And the disinformation being spread by Fox News is ridiculous. 

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

I just like to pretend to blame Bush for everything, because the other side has been blaming Obama for everything

I think you'll find that most of the "blame Obama" people will say that they do so after 8 years of "blame Bush." Goose and gander, I suppose.

[Hixter]

Now with Bengahzi the fact that there was confusion within the first 48 hours as to what exactly happened and maybe some wrangling between the CIA and the State Department caused more confusion, but really there were few disagreements about this issue when the facts finally came out. 

The administration knew within hours that it was a terror attack (September 11th: duh) but this is what was presented to the public:

 

September 13 -- Jay Carney

"The protests we're seeing around the region are in reaction to this movie. They are not directly in reaction to any policy of the United States or the government of the United States or the people of the United States."

 

September 16 -- Susan Rice, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, on CNN's "State of the Union" with Candy Crowley

"There was a hateful video that was disseminated on the Internet. It had nothing to do with the United States government, and it's one that we find disgusting and reprehensible. It's been offensive to many, many people around the world. That sparked violence in various parts of the world, including violence directed against Western facilities including our embassies and consulates."

 

September 18 -- Jay Carney

"Our belief, based on the information we have, is it was the video that caused the unrest in Cairo, and the video and the unrest in Cairo that helped -- that precipitated some of the unrest in Benghazi and elsewhere. What other factors were involved is a matter of investigation."

[KevinG]

I think you'll find that most of the "blame Obama" people will say that they do so after 8 years of "blame Bush." Goose and gander, I suppose.

 

All blame is partisan and look what the other guy did mentality.  It only serves as a justification or deflection of what is currently happening.  Which it never should be.

 

Though the current waive of scandals it really seems that the GOP is reaching for something to put a knife in Obama and hurt democrats in 2016.  

 

The GOP just seemed to be so focused on the scandals and not focused on doing their jobs in helping out the country.  If they would put half the effort they do in trying to hurt and stop Obama in helping the country we would be better off.  

 

Not to say if there is a some serious misstep or malfeasance by the Administration that it shouldn't be looked at and taken seriously but the current crop of "scandals" don't warrant that attention.  Nor attention by the media.  

 

My favorite right wing talking point is that the firing of the IRS is a farce (because he was leaving at the end of June), even though Marco Rubio requested such an action.  I think any action other than dismantling the IRS completely would would not please the Right Wing.  

 

And with the targeting of Conservative groups for tax audits and the like was the right thing to do and should have been done by the IRS, but they did not go far enough, all political groups (regardless of political affiliation) should be heavily scrutinized.  There are too many groups out there that claim they are "social welfare" that get tax exempt status and they do nothing more then push a candidate's (or parties agenda).  These groups should not be tax exempt.  Targeting of one group because of politics is wrong, all political groups need to be targeted.   

 

As a note the House is voting to repeal The Affordable Health Care act for the 37th time.  If they vote another three times I think they get a free sub.  

[Hixter]

Not to say if there is a some serious misstep or malfeasance by the Administration that it shouldn't be looked at and taken seriously but the current crop of "scandals" don't warrant that attention.  Nor attention by the media.  

Don't warrant attention? Even by the media? I strongly disagree.

 

Imagine how the political landscape might have changed six weeks before the election had it emerged that the current administration lied about a terror attack that killed 4 Americans, was siccing the IRS on conservative groups and was spying on the Associated Press. There's a reason that even Democratic politicians and left-leaning news organizations are pressing the administration on these issues: it's clear that lies, cover-ups and abuses of power took place and we need to ensure that the responsible parties are punished, no matter how far up the food chain they may reside.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

...the targeting of Conservative groups for tax audits and the like was the right thing to do and should have been done by the IRS, but they did not go far enough, all political groups (regardless of political affiliation) should be heavily scrutinized.  There are too many groups out there that claim they are "social welfare" that get tax exempt status and they do nothing more then push a candidate's (or parties agenda).  These groups should not be tax exempt.  Targeting of one group because of politics is wrong, all political groups need to be targeted.   

 

Exactly the most important point, and one that's not being mentioned enough.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

The Federal Government using its coercive powers in a partisan way should scare the hell out of you. If the Democrats go after Conservative Groups with impunity, what in the world do you think the Republicans will do when they get the White House?

Tit for Tat...Eye for an eye...what's good for the goose...that shit makes for the beginnings of a banana republic.

 

It doesn’t matter whom the IRS was targeting or what specific beliefs they held: the fact remains that for years the agency used its power to discourage and intimidate Americans from speaking out against what they viewed as bad policies, stifling the First Amendment right of every citizen to hold government accountable. 

 

 

[KevinG]

Don't warrant attention? Even by the media? I strongly disagree.

 

Imagine how the political landscape might have changed six weeks before the election had it emerged that the current administration lied about a terror attack that killed 4 Americans, was siccing the IRS on conservative groups and was spying on the Associated Press. There's a reason that even Democratic politicians and left-leaning news organizations are pressing the administration on these issues: it's clear that lies, cover-ups and abuses of power took place and we need to ensure that the responsible parties are punished, no matter how far up the food chain they may reside.

 

So now we are doing revisionist history?  I am reminded of the saying, "if wishes were assholes.." I am not sure what your point it.  

 

So if we take your comment, "it's clear that lies, cover-ups and abuses of power took place.." (which is anything but clear, especially in the case of Benghazi, no matter what the right wing media wants you to believe), at face value.   One has to wonder why the GOP so desperately wants to lay these scandals at the feet of the President.  

 

The GOP have such a laser focus in stoping this president they could be really missing out on maybe finding those responsible or preventing these things from happening again.