General Political Thread

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Don't raise you voice. Make a better argument.

[Hixter]

The jury has spoken in the Zimmerman case. Hopefully that's the last of it.

[uncool2pillow]

Total respect for jury. It's just hard to imagine justice was achieved when Mr. Zimmerman went against police advice to instigate a confrontation that, probably due to Mr. Martin's actions as well as Zimmerman's, led to the death of a 17 year old and he walks away guilty of nothing.

 

I guess I hope the Martins sue for wrongful death and it settles out of court to avoid another TV trial.

[Beltmann]

The jury has spoken in the Zimmerman case. Hopefully that's the last of it.

 

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMIy_KiBpKU[/media]

[Magnetized]

My natural instinct on the Zimmerman thing is to think this is a total travesty, and actually it would be hard to persuade me otherwise. But you never can factor in how things go over with a jury, and they are the ones who are present every day in the courtroom and also have to negotiate their own understanding of jury instructions. I'll bet one of the chief tipping points was how the jury felt about whether that was Trayvon Martin or Zimmerman on that audio.

[LouieB]

I was not surprised.  After listening to all the talk about guns for the last year, I now know that anyone who is threatened and has a gun is entitled to shoot whomever is threatening him.  Had Zimmerman NOT had a gun he would probably have done exactly as he was told by the police and not gotten near Trayvon, but once he got close enough to confront or be confronted by him and then gotten into a scuffle, he had every right to shoot him.  Thank goodness for the second amendment. 

 

Guns rule. (Oh yea, highly skilled defense lawyers also rule in cases where most of the evidence is unclear.)

 

LouieB

[twoshedsjackson]

My natural instinct on the Zimmerman thing is to think this is a total travesty, and actually it would be hard to persuade me otherwise. But you never can factor in how things go over with a jury, and they are the ones who are present every day in the courtroom and also have to negotiate their own understanding of jury instructions. I'll bet one of the chief tipping points was how the jury felt about whether that was Trayvon Martin or Zimmerman on that audio.

Your instinct is correct. It IS a travesty. If tubby had just stayed in his car as he was instructed that poor kid would still be alive. Simple as that. I won't shed any tears when Zimmerman is beaten to death on the street soon*.

 

By the way, was anyone else disgusted at the whole "OMG the kid had THC in his blood! Evil minority!!" bullshit that went on? Yeah, I'm sure he was embarking on a pot fueled rampage. At best it explains the skittles.

 

*sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm just really pissed and more ashamed of this country than usual today.

 

[Mr. Heartbreak]

There is already some talk on the tube about Zimmy possibly being charged with a federal hate crime or crimes. I would think wrongful death lawsuit would be the way to go rather than have the DOJ involved, but what the feck do I know?

By the way, I live in Florida, and I am thinking of starting a campaign to arm all African-Americans. That would at least give them a fighting chance. Whaddya think?

[LouieB]

There is already some talk on the tube about Zimmy possibly being charged with a federal hate crime or crimes. I would think wrongful death lawsuit would be the way to go rather than have the DOJ involved, but what the feck do I know?

By the way, I live in Florida, and I am thinking of starting a campaign to arm all African-Americans. That would at least give them a fighting chance. Whaddya think?

I am sure Hixter would approve.

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

Total respect for jury. It's just hard to imagine justice was achieved when Mr. Zimmerman went against police advice to instigate a confrontation

I don't believe that disregarding advice is a crime. That said, by the time the dispatcher told Zimmerman "Ok, we don't need you to do that" he had already lost sight of Martin and was walking back to his truck to meet police officers. That's when Martin came after him and instigated the fight.

 

I recommend that everyone watch the reenactment/walkthrough that Zimmerman and detectives conducted a few hours after the tragic events unfolded.

 

http://youtu.be/PX1sxARNq_c

 

I was not surprised.  After listening to all the talk about guns for the last year, I now know that anyone who is threatened and has a gun is entitled to shoot whomever is threatening him. 

After they beat your head on the concrete and tell you that you're going to die? Yes.

 

If tubby had just stayed in his car as he was instructed that poor kid would still be alive. Simple as that. I won't shed any tears when Zimmerman is beaten to death on the street soon*.

Hopefully the irony of cheering on vigilantism while decrying vigilantism isn't lost on you.

 

I am sure Hixter would approve.

I approve of any American who legally exercises his rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

[twoshedsjackson]

Hopefully the irony of cheering on vigilantism while decrying vigilantism isn't lost on you.

I'm not "cheering on vigilantism". I just won't be sad when he's on the receiving end.

 

As I said: If Zimmerman hadn't been playing cop and strutting around with his penis substitute then Martin would still be alive. It begins and ends there. He racially profiled a kid, them followed him armed. When his doughy ass started getting kicked he shot him. Do you think he'd have followed anybody if he was unarmed? I seriously doubt it.

This whole tragic situation was caused by Zimmerman alone. A coward with a gun.

[Hixter]

I'm not "cheering on vigilantism". I just won't be sad when he's on the receiving end.

Vigilantism is vigilantism. Murdering George Zimmerman after he was found innocent by a jury would be an inexcusable, modern day lynching.

 

As I said: If Zimmerman hadn't been playing cop and strutting around with his penis substitute then Martin would still be alive.

And if Trayvon Martin hadn't attacked George Zimmerman he would still be alive. If he had just walked home he would still be alive. If he had waited to talk to the cops he would still be alive. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

 

For me, the most telling moment of all came when the detectives were interviewing Zimmerman and implied that they might have video footage of the incident and he replied, "Thank God."

[uncool2pillow]

I don't believe that disregarding advice is a crime. That said, by the time the dispatcher told Zimmerman "Ok, we don't need you to do that" he had already lost sight of Martin and was walking back to his truck to meet police officers. That's when Martin came after him and instigated the fight.

 

I recommend that everyone watch the reenactment/walkthrough that Zimmerman and detectives conducted a few hours after the tragic events unfolded.

 

I saw much if not all of that.  Doesn't change my mind.  The prosecutors made -- in IMO -- a very solid case that Zimmerman told many, many lies in his description of events.  Even assuming Martin started the fight, the dude was following him and he was creeped out.  

 

Disregarding police advice is not a crime.  Disregarding police advice that sets of a chain of events that leads to the death of an unarmed person does. 

 

Hopefully the irony of cheering on vigilantism while decrying vigilantism isn't lost on you.

 

I wholly agree with this sentiment.

[LouieB]

Well naturally if Zimmerman was getting his head bashed in I suppose he had every right to shoot Martin, but that STILL does not answer the question of why he disregarded the police dispatcher and got close enough to get his head bashed in.  Had he stayed away Trayvon would be alive and he would never have been put on trial.  I truly believe he felt empowered to do something totally stupid because he was packing.

 

LuoieB

[twoshedsjackson]

Vigilantism is vigilantism. Murdering George Zimmerman after he was found innocent by a jury would be an inexcusable, modern day lynching.

 

And if Trayvon Martin hadn't attacked George Zimmerman he would still be alive. If he had just walked home he would still be alive. If he had waited to talk to the cops he would still be alive. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

 

Yes, in this case it's VERY easy.

Why should Martin have to talk to the police or anyone else?! He was walking home! He shouldn't have been approached at all, and wouldn't have been if he was white. Just admit it.

 

Oh, and If someone was following/harrassing me in the dark I'm pretty sure I'd go on the offensive too.

 

[lost highway]

No matter what, we do know that an unarmed man was shot dead by a man who weighed a good deal more than him.  The man with the gun engaged when he was told not to.

 

The one thing to keep in mind, is a court or jury is not a final decider of right or wrong.  They decide if there is conclusive proof to punish a wrong.  The jury ruling doesn't give Zimmerman a high five, he's not proven innocent.  They just couldn't prove him guilty.

[uncool2pillow]

The jury ruling doesn't give Zimmerman a high five, he's not proven innocent.  They just couldn't prove him guilty.

 

Yep.  

[Hixter]

The prosecutors made -- in IMO -- a very solid case that Zimmerman told many, many lies in his description of events. 

What are those lies? They didn't seem to convince the jury -- or the police, since they chose not to arrest him for several weeks.

 

that STILL does not answer the question of why he disregarded the police dispatcher and got close enough to get his head bashed in. 

He was walking back to his truck when Martin approached him and punched him as he tried to call the police again.

 

Why should Martin have to talk to the police or anyone else?! He was walking home! 

He didn't have to. He could have just continued back to his father's girlfriend's house just a short distance away, but he chose to attack Zimmerman instead.

 

He shouldn't have been approached at all, and wouldn't have been if he was white. Just admit it.

I won't admit it because there's no way to tell. The media has fanned the flames with implications of racism, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman is a racist.

 

Oh, and If someone was following/harrassing me in the dark I'm pretty sure I'd go on the offensive too.

That's your right. It's also Zimmerman's right to carry a firearm and to use it if he's attacked.

 

The jury ruling doesn't give Zimmerman a high five, he's not proven innocent.  They just couldn't prove him guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty. Not proven guilty = innocent.

[twoshedsjackson]

Vigilantism is vigilantism. Murdering George Zimmerman after he was found innocent by a jury would be an inexcusable, modern day lynching.

 

A modern day lynching? Almost like following an innocent black kid and shooting him when he got all "uppity"? And then not being arrested for it 'til public outcry demanded it? And then totally getting away with the murder.

 

Yeah.

[Hixter]

A modern day lynching? Almost like following an innocent black kid and shooting him when he got all "uppity"? 

Racist remarks are just as offensive when uttered by someone who is putting words in another person's mouth.

[twoshedsjackson]

I won't admit it because there's no way to tell. The media has fanned the flames with implications of racism, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman is a racist.

You can't be serious. But I suspect you are.

 

...And so ends my foray into the General Political thread. Like most online political debates, it's like screaming at a wall.

 

I'll stick to the music threads.

 

Racist remarks are just as offensive when uttered by someone who is putting words in another person's mouth.

I disagree.

[Hixter]

You can't be serious. But I suspect you are.

Absolutely. There is no proof whatsoever that George Zimmerman is a racist. He has African-American relatives; African-American neighbors, friends and coworkers have defended his character and he participated in protests over the beating of an African-American man by the son of a local cop.

 

...And so ends my foray into the General Political thread. Like most online political debates, it's like screaming at a wall.

Sorry to see you go. I think it's been a nice discussion.

[twoshedsjackson]

Absolutely. There is no proof whatsoever that George Zimmerman is a racist. He has African-American relatives; African-American neighbors, friends and coworkers have defended his character and he participated in protests over the beating of an African-American man by the son of a local cop.

 

Sorry to see you go. I think it's been a nice discussion.

It's nothing personal, man. I just mean I'd like to keep VC as my happy music place. There's always Fark or Reddit for the rest.

 

 

 

 

[uncool2pillow]

What are those lies? They didn't seem to convince the jury -- or the police, since they chose not to arrest him for several weeks.

1) He got out of the car to identify which street he was on.  This was in his neighborhood.  If you believe this, then I can't imagine you really have an open mind to both points of view.  He knew he went against the advice of authorities and probably thought up this lie to justify his being out of his car.

 

2) Martin was going for his gun.  This one may actually be true, but I don't think so.  I think the only way he knew the gun was there is if Zimmerman told him in an effort to get the upper hand in the fight they were having

 

There are probably more, I watched most of the closing arguments, but can't think of any right now and am not going to go back to look them up.

 

 

Innocent until proven guilty. Not proven guilty = innocent.

 

Hixter, you usually argue your point of view very convincingly.  You have rebutted several arguments I've made against you regarding gun control and I enjoy your contributions to this thread.  This one, though is nonsense.  The 6 members of that jury may have leaned heavily toward convicting Zimmerman.  I think the fact that they wanted clarification on manslaughter instructions shows that at least 1 juror was pretty damn close.  Hell they all may have thought that he's guilty, but that the evidence leaves reasonable doubt.  For the freedom of Mr. Zimmerman, it's true that not guilty is the same as innocent, but our criminal courts are not in the business of finding people innocent.  If there is clear cut evidence of innocence the charges would most likely be dropped before a trial.

 

There will probably be a civil suit.  After that verdict, we can revisit Mr. Zimmerman's innocence.

[lost highway]

Innocent until proven guilty. Not proven guilty = innocent.

 

In the eyes of that particular jury, in our court system, yes.  But the point is that doesn't make it a fact that you can hang up on humanity, or a higher power.  The truth often has more to it than that.  Just because the law doesn't punish someone doesn't mean in certainty they didn't commit a crime.  The reverse is also true.