General Political Thread

[KevinG]

As for Jon Stewart, I prefer to get my information from news organizations, not comedians or other celebrities.

 

Well aren't you special.  Satire is an effective way of presenting information.  I thought it was concise, to the point, and funny.  Too bad you won't even watch to.  Oh well.  Point being that many gun supporters call for enforcing current laws, while at the same time the NRA is hindering the enforcement of current laws. 

 

 

The only thing the VT shooting had in common with the Sandy Hook shooting is that they both took place in schools which were gun-free zones. 

 

Well yes technically true, the school is a gun free zone, but Virginia Tech actually has an armed police force.  

 

As far as I know, Connecticut already had an "assault" rifle ban in place at the time of the Sandy Hook shootings.

 

Possibly true, I am not up on CT gun laws.  So the mother presumably bought the gun in another state.  But regardless of CT gun laws if the FEDERAL ban on assault rifles where in place the guns could not have been bought in any state.  

 

 

 

No, I'm saying that piling additional useless legislation on top of existing laws is pointless and serves only to enable politicians to claim that they are "doing something." 

 

To the point gun violence is a terrible thing in our society, it is a cynical thing to think the sole reason for politicians to try enact gun legislation to appear to be doing something.  I honestly think they are at least trying for the purpose of helping society.  I have only heard push back from the pro gun people.  Really lay out your points, what would you do to prevent gun violence?  

[Hixter]

Well aren't you special.

No need to get snarky. I just choose to avoid most TV and celebrities who want to lecture me about politics. That includes the Limbaughs and O'Reillys as well as the Michael Moores and Seam Penns. It's just not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

Well yes technically true, the school is a gun free zone, but Virginia Tech actually has an armed police force.  

More than 2.5 hours elapsed between the first shootings and the last, a good example of the "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away" reasoning that a lot of people use to justify their firearm ownership.

 

 

 

But regardless of CT gun laws if the FEDERAL ban on assault rifles where in place the guns could not have been bought in any state.  

Not necessarily true, considering the grandfathering in place. More importantly, see my earlier comments on how ridiculous the criteria that determine "assault" weapon status really are.

 

 

 

Really lay out your points, what would you do to prevent gun violence?  

I've done so again and again, but here it is another time:

 

1) Concentrate on the real source of America's gun violence problem: gangs, drug dealing and inner-city violence. They're ignoring gun laws now and will ignore any future laws, so good luck with that.

 

2) Forget about "assault" weapon bans and magazine size limits because they are worthless and rifles account for about 1 or 2 percent of all murders.

 

3) Do away with "gun free" zones -- or at least stop labeling them as such.

 

4) There are already cops in most middle/high schools and universities, so afford the same protection to elementary schools.

 

5) Strengthen classroom doors and build panic rooms for students to hide in.

[LouieB]

On a different note. Congrats to Barack on his inaguration.  Hopefully the country will pull itself together and get something done now.

 

LouieB

[Tweedling]

I read the transcript and the speech seemed good.

[KevinG]

 

 

I've done so again and again, but here it is another time:

 

1) Concentrate on the real source of America's gun violence problem: gangs, drug dealing and inner-city violence. They're ignoring gun laws now and will ignore any future laws, so good luck with that.

 

2) Forget about "assault" weapon bans and magazine size limits because they are worthless and rifles account for about 1 or 2 percent of all murders.

 

3) Do away with "gun free" zones -- or at least stop labeling them as such.

 

4) There are already cops in most middle/high schools and universities, so afford the same protection to elementary schools.

 

5) Strengthen classroom doors and build panic rooms for students to hide in.

 

1) I agree with this, but at the end of your statement you dismiss your very idea.  Just because something is hard we shouldn't try?

 

2) Ok yes assault weapons are a small portion of gun crimes.  So that being the case hand guns are the largest.  I don't think you are saying this and no one is talking about it (cause people would freak the f out), what about banning all hand guns?  

 

3-5) It is incredibly sad and depressing where we have to talk about ideas like this.  School should be the one place where our children should go and be safe without the threat of violence or the need to be protected from violence.  It is the sad state of our world today.  

 

Specifically on 5) that would be nearly impossible for a school district to put in to place, especially when school's struggle to keep things like music and art going.  The cost would be outrageous.  

 

Why are we not talking about the factors that lead to gun violence in the first place?  Poverty and Mental Health?  Every suggestion really by both sides of this argument are incredibly reactionary.  One would wish we would talk about gun control before a horrible tragedy, not after when emotions run high.  

 

I have come to the conclusion that nothing will be done, the Pro Gun and the Anti Gun will never come to any type of agreement.  It has become exhausting and frankly depressing to even discussing any more.  I am done.  

[Hixter]

1) I agree with this, but at the end of your statement you dismiss your very idea.  Just because something is hard we shouldn't try?

The average gangster is undeterred by gun laws, so I just can't see them worrying about things like magazine limits. The only way to achieve real progress would be to double or triple prison sentences, but our prisons are already overcrowded.

 

 

I don't think you are saying this and no one is talking about it (cause people would freak the f out), what about banning all hand guns?  

It's on the wish list, I'm sure. Obama famously endorsed such a ban as a candidate for office in Illinois, but once he was running for president he claimed that an aide had filled out his response, even though his handwriting was on the questionnaire. Like all politicians, he'll say just about anything to get elected.

 

 

Specifically on 5) that would be nearly impossible for a school district to put in to place, especially when school's struggle to keep things like music and art going.  The cost would be outrageous. 

If you can't give students a safe place to hide, then the only alternative is to provide them with armed security. It won't stop all school shootings but it's better than leaving the kids unprotected.

 

 

Why are we not talking about the factors that lead to gun violence in the first place?  Poverty and Mental Health?

Instead of poverty, I'd call it "criminal lifestyle." As for mental health, I don't see how you can guarantee that mentally ill people won't murder others. Locking them up would be the only certain solution.

 

On a related note, I ordered one of these this morning:

[JUDE]

 

On a related note, I ordered one of these this morning:

 

Nice, I just ordered 500 rds of 5.56 X 45 from Midway.

[Hixter]

Nice, I just ordered 500 rds of 5.56 X 45 from Midway.

Back-ordered, I assume? I haven't seen any at a reasonable price at the usual locations. I read that it will be 6 to 12 months before the supply returns to "normal."

[LouieB]

I read the transcript and the speech seemed good.

It was.  I just kept picturing Mitt Romney giving a speech like that. 

LouieB

[JUDE]

Back-ordered, I assume? I haven't seen any at a reasonable price at the usual locations. I read that it will be 6 to 12 months before the supply returns to "normal."

 I think it will ship in the next day or so.  I called before finalizing my order and they had cases in stock.

 

I was able to get 500 rds of M193 from Cabelas just over a week ago. I don't know if  48c per is reasonable but it's  cheaper than I've seen lataly.

 

If you check some of the dedicated gun sites regularily, AR15.com, etc they have real time updates on availability but you need to move fast.

[KevinG]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/shooting-texas-college-campus-reports-191439016.html

 

Sigh, another day, another shooting.  I am sure there were probably some not reported in other areas too.  I would hope that there is one thing that we all can agree on, this is extremely depressing.  

[LouieB]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/shooting-texas-college-campus-reports-191439016.html

 

Sigh, another day, another shooting.  I am sure there were probably some not reported in other areas too.  I would hope that there is one thing that we all can agree on, this is extremely depressing.  

Time to give it up comrade.  The gun enthusiasts (I won't refer to the as gun nuts just to keep it from escalating) don't really care, because clearly guns don't kill people, people kill people.  We are basically at war with ourselves and until it becomes so unpopular to do so, we are going to keep shooting one another. 

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

Sigh, another day, another shooting.

It's still early, but it appears to have been 2 people shooting at each other and not a shooting spree.

 

The gun enthusiasts (I won't refer to the as gun nuts just to keep it from escalating) don't really care

That's some bullshit right there.

[LouieB]

It's still early, but it appears to have been 2 people shooting at each other and not a shooting spree.

 

That's some bullshit right there.

I would like to think this is bullshit, except you clearly don't think two (angry) people shooting AT each other (with guns) is all that big a deal.  I just don't see that much difference between two armed people shooting and only one shooting.  Can you clarify your position on THAT?

 

edit-sorry i just don't get it.  You have every right to have all the guns and ammo you want okay?  And sure guns don't kill people, people do, but damn, it makes it so much easier to shoot and maybe kill someone if you have a gun and are willing to use it to kill someone. At some point this goes WAY beyond your rights.  It goes deeper and broader than that.  It goes beyond statistics and assumptions.  Guns can be fucking dangerous.  They are dangerous.  They do kill people because people pull the fucking triggers. 

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

I would like to think this is bullshit, except you clearly don't think two (angry) people shooting AT each other (with guns) is all that big a deal.  I just don't see that much difference between two armed people shooting and only one shooting.  Can you clarify your position on THAT?

I was pointing out that, at first report, it wasn't a mass shooting like the Sandy Hook shootings that required immediate "action" by legislators surrounded by little kids used as props. But mainly I was just upset that you were insinuating that gun owners (and that includes myself, I suppose) didn't care about murder victims.

[LouieB]

I dunno.  If you say so.  You are sure spending alot of time here trying to dismiss eeryones beliefs that guns can hurt people and that maybe more control over firearms is necessary. 

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

You are sure spending alot of time here trying to dismiss eeryones beliefs that guns can hurt people

I've spent not even a second doing so.

[LouieB]

Okay, cool. So we have settled that unregulated guns in the wrong people's hands are bad.

 

Now what do we talk about?  Gay marriage, immigration reform, ending drone strikes, stopping Iran from getting the bomb, settling the Israeli Palestinian question, balancing the budget, ending the Afgan war, sending the Syrian civil war,  reducing student loan debt, banks that are too big to fail, getting Americans back to work, etc. etc.

 

LouieB

[lost highway]

I still feel like something is missing in this conversation.

 

The pro gun side has correctly pointed out that gun laws can not fully prevent gun violence.

 

What I'm looking for is a substantial argument why your owning a gun is important enough to choose it over even a statistical probability of less homicides, or accidental deaths.  While we have pointed out that shooting happen in Norway, or Australia, we also know they happen less.  So what is actually worth the exchange there?  Tyranny is not going to cut it, because we have been noting both tyrannical, and free nations with tougher gun laws.

[KevinG]

I honestly don't get it.  I don't get the cavalier attitude towards this violence.  Two people where shot today in Texas, I am sure there were people that were shot else where.  I am sure there are other horrible, horrible things happening around the world.  It is fucking tragedy, and yet here we sit and bitch about our rights, blah blah blah.  

 

Can't you see our society is falling apart at the seams?  We are talking as credible solution about putting panic rooms in our schools.  PANIC ROOMS in our schools!!!!?  JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!  What the hell is wrong with us that we have to consider this is a viable option?    

 

What the hell is wrong with us, when it is reported that two people where shot, we are relived that it wasn't a mass shooting.  Two people are fucking dead.  When I heard about the Sandy Hook shooting, I broke down, I waited at my kids bus stop just to be sure he got off and was safe.  I can't ever imagine going through what those parents did.  I was a wreck even thinking it could happen to my kids, I can't imagine what I would do if something like that happened.  Never once on that day did I think about my rights, I just thought about my kids.  

 

My hope was that the Sandy Hook tragedy would be the last mass shooting we had in this country, but I fear that it will not be and that gives me a sickening feeling in the very pit of my soul.  

[LouieB]

I still feel like something is missing in this conversation.

 

The pro gun side has correctly pointed out that gun laws can not fully prevent gun violence.

 

What I'm looking for is a substantial argument why your owning a gun is important enough to choose it over even a statistical probability of less homicides, or accidental deaths.  While we have pointed out that shooting happen in Norway, or Australia, we also know they happen less.  So what is actually worth the exchange there?  Tyranny is not going to cut it, because we have been noting both tyrannical, and free nations with tougher gun laws.

The "we have to have guns in case a tyrant takes over" (such as some black guy in the white house), is the craziest fucking argument ever.  I suppose if this were Syria or something it might make sense, but otherwise what crazy cracker with a few semi-automatic (or even automatic) guns gonna do against the US fucking armed forces.  Give me a break. 

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

I honestly don't get it.  I don't get the cavalier attitude towards this violence.  Two people where shot today in Texas, I am sure there were people that were shot else where.  I am sure there are other horrible, horrible things happening around the world.  It is fucking tragedy, and yet here we sit and bitch about our rights, blah blah blah.  

I am only abridging your post because no one in their right minds (hmmm) would make the asumption that two people shooting each other isn't a problem comparable to Newtown. 

 

Clearly the argument is that the trade off of our constitutional right to bear arms (oh yea, you can have all the flintlocks you want guys.) is more important than public safety.  The constant refrains that I wouldn't let that happen with my guns, my kids aren't mentally ill, I can control the use of my guns, I have a right to them in case I am a victim of a crime or the governmet runs amok, isn't convincing to me either, but so it goes. 

 

While Hixter says he isn't trying to say gun violence is okay (I take him at his word), he isn't going to entertain any of your hippie/peace freak logic that less guns means less gun violence.  Hell the NRA doesn't even want the issue of studying less gun violence to be part of the conversation. (Wonder what they are worried about: maybe science finding guns DO cause gun violence??) 

 

I watch local news alot and here in Chicago there are tons of guns going off killing all sorts of people, but heaven forbid we should try and reduce the number of guns on the streets.  I know I know, those are illegal guns and therefore not the same thing.  Right.

 

LouieB

[Mr. Heartbreak]

The thing about the President's proposals - and this is, after all, the politics thread - is that they address the issue of future manufacture of some of these types of weapons and/or the accompanying magazines. Why should anyone care if the laws change on future manufacturing? You already have all the guns you want, right? Or is it really super important that you have the "right" to buy your grandson an AR-15 in ten or twenty or thirty years? That's what I don't get about all the hysteria on the "pro-gun" side...

[Hixter]

Now what do we talk about? 

 

Gay marriage

Marry any consenting adult you please

 

 

 

immigration reform

Enforce the laws and deport illegal immigrants.

 

 

 

ending drone strikes

They're better than boots-on-the-ground fighting. It'll get very interesting as more nations acquire armed drones.

 

 

 

stopping Iran from getting the bomb

Only military action will stop them and our president seems to be shying away from it and isn't inclined to let Israel try, either.

 

 

 

settling the Israeli Palestinian question

The Palestinians and their supporters don't want peace, they want Israel removed. Until they support Israel's continued existence there will be no peace.

 

 

 

balancing the budget

Across-the-board spending cuts until the budget is balanced.

 

 

 

ending the Afgan war

It's practically over. We lost.

 

 

 

sending the Syrian civil war

If Libya and Egypt are anything to go by, it'll likely end with extremists in charge.

 

 

 

reducing student loan debt

No sympathy at all; I paid mine off. Don't bite off more than you can chew.

 

 

 

banks that are too big to fail

As long as those banks line the campaign pockets of Democrats and Republicans alike, nothing will change.

 

 

 

getting Americans back to work

Whatever it takes, as long as they aren't just more government jobs. 

 

Ok, that's been taken care of. 

[Hixter]

Can't you see our society is falling apart at the seams?

No, because it's not. Mankind is in a better place than it's ever been.

 

 

 

What the hell is wrong with us, when it is reported that two people where shot, we are relived that it wasn't a mass shooting.  Two people are fucking dead.

No they aren't.

 

 

 

 

My hope was that the Sandy Hook tragedy would be the last mass shooting we had in this country, but I fear that it will not be

It most certainly won't be.

 

People can be violent and no amount of legislation will change that. Hell, every one of us is here because our ancestors killed people and animals in order to rise to the top of the ecosystem. Pull your hair out about the futility of it all if you'd like, but that's the way it is. Really, the best one can do is to make sure that you live a peaceful life yourself.