Politics 2014

[Hixter]

If Brown had been, say, a group of gun fondling rednecks on a ranch pointing automatic weapons at federal agents, he'd have been sent on his way.

There's really no comparison between a long-running standoff at a distance and a brief, violent and unexpected attack at arm's length, but had any of those "rednecks" assaulted the federal agents and tried to take their firearms, they would have been shot and killed.

 

Unfortunately for him, he stole some cigars and walked down a street unarmed. That's just begging to have a magazine emptied into him, am I right?

He wasn't shot for stealing cigars, he was shot because he attacked an officer and tried to take his gun. The officer had every reason to fear for his life and the grand jury recognized that the officer was justified in using lethal force to protect himself. 

[JUDE]

You forgot the part about Brown assaulting office Wilson.

 

I'm pretty sure if a gun fondling redneck disobeyed a lawful order and assaulted a police officer to the point the officer felt his life was in imminent danger, he would have had a magazine emptied into him as well.

[lost highway]

He wasn't shot for stealing cigars, he was shot because he attacked an officer and tried to take his gun. The officer had every reason to fear for his life and the grand jury recognized that the officer was justified in using lethal force to protect himself.

And so it made sense that after he was shot once, the officer prudently shot him more times in case after sustaining the first gunshot wound he might once again get up and take the gun that had just shot him. From there what's a few more bullets?

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Even I become a right-wing fascist in these types of scenarios. I was taught to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir" to police officers. Period. In my wildest dreams, I would never do anything threatening toward a police officer (unless, of course, they physically assaulted me, unprovoked). If you attack a police officer, you can expect trouble, and, very possibly, death. Let's face it, a lot of these guys are sociopaths at best: they wield the power, including the gun, and are drunk on it. I'm not saying Brown deserved to die, but he certainly took a risk that goes beyond foolishness and somewhere into insanity or idiocy.

 

There were too many inconsistencies in the reports of eyewitnesses. So that is the way it goes. Now we have people going wild, throwing rocks at police, setting fires, trying to overturn police cars. Again, these are things I would never in my wildest dreams attempt. I would expect tear gas, and possibly live ammo to be coming my way. I fully expect the police and/or National Guard to crack down on that area in a major way, and rightly so. I may be a pacifist, but I also believe in law and order. If people are upset or frustrated, there are legal and nonviolent ways to voice that. Rioting only confirms racists' worst fears.

[Hixter]

And so it made sense that after he was shot once, the officer prudently shot him more times in case after sustaining the first gunshot wound he might once again get up and take the gun that had just shot him. 

According to the physical evidence, autopsy reports and eyewitness accounts, the first shot was a slight, non-fatal wound to the hand. The suspect then exited the vehicle and the officer pursued him -- standard procedure. The 6' 4", 300-pound suspect then turned and charged at the officer, who then fired several more shots.

 

From there what's a few more bullets?

Officers are trained to shoot until the attacker goes down, thus ending the attack and the threat to their lives.

[Hixter]

Even I become a right-wing fascist in these types of scenarios. I was taught to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir" to police officers. Period. In my wildest dreams, I would never do anything threatening toward a police officer (unless, of course, they physically assaulted me, unprovoked). If you attack a police officer, you can expect trouble, and, very possibly, death. Let's face it, a lot of these guys are sociopaths at best: they wield the power, including the gun, and are drunk on it. I'm not saying Brown deserved to die, but he certainly took a risk that goes beyond foolishness and somewhere into insanity or idiocy.

 

There were too many inconsistencies in the reports of eyewitnesses. So that is the way it goes. Now we have people going wild, throwing rocks at police, setting fires, trying to overturn police cars. Again, these are things I would never in my wildest dreams attempt. I would expect tear gas, and possibly live ammo to be coming my way. I fully expect the police and/or National Guard to crack down on that area in a major way, and rightly so. I may be a pacifist, but I also believe in law and order. If people are upset or frustrated, there are legal and nonviolent ways to voice that. Rioting only confirms racists' worst fears.

I agree with everything you said, with the exception of the number of sociopaths in uniform. I doubt they make up more than a tiny fraction of our police forces; background checks and psych evals weed out most of them. I've dealt with a few asshole cops over the years, but most of the officers I've encountered have been helpful and friendly.

[Sir Stewart]

It may have been justified, but Wilson is still a toolweed. "It looked like a demon" and "I felt like a five year old" - some fucking cop you are.

[twoshedsjackson]

There's really no comparison between a long-running standoff at a distance and a brief, violent and unexpected attack at arm's length, but had any of those "rednecks" assaulted the federal agents and tried to take their firearms, they would have been shot and killed.

I see. So merely pointing a sniper rifle at feds is ok? Just boys having fun?

 

What about the 12 year old in Cleveland they gunned down on a playground for holding a bb gun? In a state that allows good, patriotic, open carry idiots to parade around in public with AR-15's slung over their shoulders. Of course they have the good sense to be white.

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/04/republicans_and_the_midterms_global_warming_deniers_could_have_their_dreams.html

 

I wonder if THAT cop will go to trial. Just kidding, there's no need to wonder.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I agree with everything you said, with the exception of the number of sociopaths in uniform. I doubt they make up more than a tiny fraction of our police forces; background checks and psych evals weed out most of them. I've dealt with a few asshole cops over the years, but most of the officers I've encountered have been helpful and friendly.

I have no way of knowing what the percentages are, but I have had many nasty run-ins with very overbearing cops...which is odd, because I am short, slim, and extremely non-threatening in appearance. I can only imagine how these people would behave towards someone who is tall, heavy and black. Personally, I would probably attribute their behavior to things like alcoholism, PTSD, and/or the kind of power trip that I spoke of.

[Atticus]

I'm more concerned about my inability to embed a URL represented by text anymore.

[lost highway]

Even I become a right-wing fascist in these types of scenarios. I was taught to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir" to police officers. Period. In my wildest dreams, I would never do anything threatening toward a police officer (unless, of course, they physically assaulted me, unprovoked). If you attack a police officer, you can expect trouble, and, very possibly, death. Let's face it, a lot of these guys are sociopaths at best: they wield the power, including the gun, and are drunk on it. I'm not saying Brown deserved to die, but he certainly took a risk that goes beyond foolishness and somewhere into insanity or idiocy.

 

See, this attitude is a barrier to accountability. I don't want to live in a country where law enforcement is regarded as a feral dog that you should know better than to aggravate. I believe a certain level of competence should build trust, as opposed to this loose-cannon fear.

 

Hixter might bow before the same night stick this officer should have used, and a lot of what he's saying is procedurally true. That's part of a broken system to me; as a taxpayer I don't believe law enforcement should ever be justified in unloading on an unarmed man. It's insane. It wouldn't happen in many other countries, and I think many people have a sense that it wouldn't have happened to a white kid.

 

It doesn't surprise me that there are representatives of a faction that is biased in favor of a man holding a smoking gun on this board. Hell, there were voices supporting another guy- a civilian- who shot an unarmed kid recently. As a citizen I refuse to live under a standard where the burden of judgment lies first in the recipient of a bullet and second on the gunman. I detest a system of ethics where the justification for taking someone's life is "reasonable fear". I think this severely limits our freedom and safety, and it is no coincidence that it has been most famously abused in areas of severe racial inequality.

[Hixter]

I see. So merely pointing a sniper rifle at feds is ok?

I didn't follow the story very closely, but I only remember seeing one photo of a protestor aiming a weapon. It was shown repeatedly, but I don't think it had any sort of scope and looked like a standard AR-type of firearm, not a sniper rifle. And I think I remember reading that the feds had snipers of their own. Either way, I wouldn't have shed any tears had anyone been shot for aiming a firearm at police officers. 

 

What about the 12 year old in Cleveland they gunned down on a playground for holding a bb gun? 

Tragic, but justifiable from everything I've read. Police received a 911 call about someone pointing a gun at people, arrived at the scene and saw him put the gun in his waistband, ordered him to put his hands in the air and the boy responded by pulling the gun from under his shirt. It was a stupid move by the boy and it cost him his life. One could also call into question the decision to remove the orange tip from the toy gun in order to make it look like a real firearm, but the end result is still the same: poor decisions by a kid who ended up dead.

 

In a state that allows good, patriotic, open carry idiots to parade around in public with AR-15's slung over their shoulders. Of course they have the good sense to be white.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/04/republicans_and_the_midterms_global_warming_deniers_could_have_their_dreams.html

 

I wonder if THAT cop will go to trial. Just kidding, there's no need to wonder.

I'm not sure what an article about the midterm elections and climate change has to do with the story?

 

Open carry laws have traditionally been on the books to prevent hunters and other gun owners from being arrested for transporting their rifles from their vehicles or walking down the side of the road on their way to hunt in the woods. The recent spate of idiots who want to walk into Target with AR-15s on their backs is a recent development by a tiny group of fringe whackos. They're the laughingstock of most gun owners and I guarantee you that they'll be shot if they point their weapons at a cop and it won't matter what race they are. 

[KevinG]

 If people are upset or frustrated, there are legal and nonviolent ways to voice that. Rioting only confirms racists' worst fears.

 

It is a lot easier to pour out in the streets turnover cars and riot then it is to vote.  

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/06/politics/missouri-elections-ferguson-voter-turnout/

 

When 4 of 10 people vote in a community a majority of voices are not being heard.  The people that are elected, the people who help determine what actions the Police can or cannot take in situations, the people who determine what evidence is presented to grand juries, are not being held accountable by a majority of its citizens.  

 

And voting is the least of what a person should do.  It is a lot easier to riot then take an active role in your community to try to good, to educate, to teach, to learn, so situations like this never happen.  But people won't do that.  Nothing will come of this.  The riots will continue.  Then they will stop.  Then some one else will get shot.  We are in an endless cycle here.  

 

We just argue about the results of an action, rather than see what has lead up to the action.  The Grand Jury went through made a decision, it is over.  People are pissed, some see the out come as just.  But we do nothing to stop this from happening again.  

[twoshedsjackson]

Sorry, i pasted the wrong link. Here's the correct one:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I don't want to live in a country where law enforcement is regarded as a feral dog that you should know better than to aggravate.

Me neither, but that is where I feel I have lived almost my entire life. In fact, I feel that the country has been openly in a police state since the '68 Dem convention in Chicago, but that is sort of another topic....

 

It's a slow day at work today, so I have some time to expand on some of my encounters with law enforcement in my 50 years on the planet:

 

1) Pulled over for speeding on a CT highway at about age 20. I was driving 10 mph over the speed limit, which is pretty much par for the course in that part of the country. Cops will pass you on the highway when you're going that speed, but this one came out of a hiding spot and flew up behind me with lights flashing and siren blaring, really scaring the shit out of me. Surprised, I pulled over. He came up and gave me a very snotty attitude, including a ticket. I was sitting there, stunned, after he walked away from my car. I made the mistake of getting out of my car and saying, "Excuse me, sir? Sir?" He was pretty far away by then, but you would think I had already pulled a weapon from his near-psychotic reaction. He wheeled around, pulled his weapon, and began running back toward me, screaming, "Get the hell off my road!" Yes, he really said MY road. I got back in the car and shut the door. He came up to me again and told me in a sneering attitude that he didn't want to have to call my "mommy" and tell her he'd had to scrape me up off the highway. Total asshole.

 

2) About five years later. Living in New Britain, CT at that time, a fairly crime-infested city. My apartment was the entire top level of an old 3-family house, the bottom level of which was a small insurance company. They had gotten rid of the original door and installed a large glass door in front, so it was clearly a business. I can understand that you would never guess that the top floor was an apartment. The alarm downstairs went off, which I didn't realize, because a friend of mine had come over (leaving my door unlocked), and first we were talking, then I got on a phone call from someone who was helping me with a job prospect. My friend walked out from my room to the hallway to use my bathroom when he found himself face to face with an officer who was pointing a loaded gun right at his face. Surprising he didn't crap his pants on the spot. The officer insisted on talking to me once she found out I lived there. By then, it was obvious that this was not a break-in but an alarm malfunction. So I had to put this person who was helping me to get a job on hold, then talk to the cop as briefly as I could, then get back on the call and apologize (I didn't get the job, by the way). After I got off the phone, I went back downstairs and outside to speak to the cops and question them about walking into my residence with no warrant and weapons drawn, without even knocking. The female officer got right up in front of me, and yelled, "You want to get in my face? You want to get in my face?!" I backed away a bit and let it go. Later, I found out from an acquaintance that that particular cop was a drunk.

 

3) Fifteen years later, in Florida, I got pulled over by a state trooper on a lonely stretch of highway. I had the cruise control set for 80, in the 70 zone, and this creep came flying out from a hidden spot and landed on my tail, startling me very badly (they seem to like that method). I was shocked, but figured he was just going to be a dick and give me a ticket for doing 80. Instead, he informed me that he had clocked me going 96. Now, I don't often go over 80, but I have tried it, and I know what it feels like to drive a car at 90 or 100. You can feel it. I know for a fact I was not going over 80 or 81. I mentioned casually that I was not aware of going that fast, as I had just set the cruise for 80 and went on my way. The cop sarcastically told me I should get my cruise control checked, and handed me a ticket for about $400, if I remember correctly. Fortunately, I have Pre-Paid Legal services, so I sent it to them, and they sent a lawyer to court to fight the ticket for me. The douchebag cop never showed up, so the ticket got thrown out. No violence or threat of violence in this example, but what an asshole. If I had not had the resources, this lying bully would have cost me $400, rather than just let me off with a warning.

 

I could go on with other examples, but you get the idea. I am a law-abiding citizen, so I have rarely had any occasion to encounter the police, but my own experience has led me to believe that the majority of cops either are assholes, or are quick to behave as such. Again, if I were a large, strong-looking black male, I can only imagine how much worse these encounters would have been. Consequently, I would never teach my kids a "fuck tha police" attitude. I would inform them of what their job is, and explain that they often enter dangerous situations and are therefore to be always approached with kid gloves.

[Atticus]

See, this attitude is a barrier to accountability. I don't want to live in a country where law enforcement is regarded as a feral dog that you should know better than to aggravate. I believe a certain level of competence should build trust, as opposed to this loose-cannon fear.

 

Hixter might bow before the same night stick this officer should have used, and a lot of what he's saying is procedurally true. That's part of a broken system to me; as a taxpayer I don't believe law enforcement should ever be justified in unloading on an unarmed man. It's insane. It wouldn't happen in many other countries, and I think many people have a sense that it wouldn't have happened to a white kid.

 

It doesn't surprise me that there are representatives of a faction that is biased in favor of a man holding a smoking gun on this board. Hell, there were voices supporting another guy- a civilian- who shot an unarmed kid recently. As a citizen I refuse to live under a standard where the burden of judgment lies first in the recipient of a bullet and second on the gunman. I detest a system of ethics where the justification for taking someone's life is "reasonable fear". I think this severely limits our freedom and safety, and it is no coincidence that it has been most famously abused in areas of severe racial inequality.

 

I understand your points but I just feel like very few people in this argument are empathizing with the perspective of a police officer (not the officer in the Ferguson case, just the police in general)

 

I've met some real asshole police officers in my lifetime but I've also met some fantastic human beings in that job.

 

Most of these men and women are under a lot of stress in a very difficult job.  Looking at all the commentary on social media it's clear that a large segment of our population has a bias against police--assuming that most of them are racist and power-mad.  

 

I don't think it's fair to have a standard under which police officers are expected to stop and try to examine the motives of someone in the middle of an arrest scenario.  For a police force to have any efficacy, there should be some degree of willingness on the part of the population to think "wait a second, I'm being told by an officer with a gun to stand down/freeze/whatever, I better just chill the fuck out" rather than the initial reaction being "I think my constitutional rights are possibly being violated here, I'm going to start arguing and cussing.  hell, I may even punch the asshole"

 

The point being this:  if I choose to stand down and comply with an officer, I always have a chance later on to assert my rights in a court of law.  Because I'm still alive.  I may lose.  I may even get handed some "injustice."  But the other scenario results in me very possibly dying.

 

I don't think we can have a safe society if our population feels like it has a fundamental right to stop in the middle of an arrest situation and have a trial where the arrestee is the judge and jury.

 

I'm not articulating this very well cause I need to pee.  I'll give it another shot in a minute.

[twoshedsjackson]

This is interesting:

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/

[Hixter]

Hixter might bow before the same night stick this officer should have used

That was unnecessary.

 

We've all heard that you shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight. Well, you don't bring a nightstick to a gunfight, either, and that's what this was: a fight for control of the officer's handgun. Had Brown gained control of the firearm, there would have been a dead cop and nobody outside of the St. Louis area would have heard about the incident.

 

I don't believe law enforcement should ever be justified in unloading on an unarmed man.

The instant he touched the officer's weapon he was no longer unarmed. 

 

I think many people have a sense that it wouldn't have happened to a white kid.

Perhaps they should start watching/reading the news.

[Hixter]

I am a law-abiding citizen, so I have rarely had any occasion to encounter the police, but my own experience has led me to believe that the majority of cops either are assholes, or are quick to behave as such. 

To be honest, two of your three incidents came as a result of you breaking the law. The other one is an interesting case, however. You were justified in being in your residence and the cops were (legally) justified in entering your residence, but there could easily have been a tragic result and nobody would have been guilty of any wrongdoing. 

 

I have a few unpleasant cop stories of my own (the most memorable being the time an Orlando cop told me that he had a jail full of Cuban boat lift inmates who would love to rape me) but I've never been arrested and most cops have treated me professionally and politely. Life confronts us with the occasional asshole and I find it is usually fairly easy to deal with them.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

To be honest, two of your three incidents came as a result of you breaking the law. 

To be honest, my going 10 mph over the speed limit is not justification for the officers being total dicks, screaming at me, calling a public highway "my road," making snide references to my mother as my "mommy," lying about my speed (big difference between 80 and 96), etc. etc.

 

I have never been arrested either, but I would not be surprised if a cop arrested me just because they were a dick. I also am not surprised when I read stories of cops raping and/or murdering innocent people just because they have a gun and think they can get away with it. Cops are people, and people do these things. I think every single one of them should have a mandatory psychological test by an objective third party every year.

[KevinG]

Just wondering Mr. Heartbreak, and I hope I am not overstepping any lines here, but what is your age and race?

[lost highway]

That was unnecessary.

 

Probably so. Apologies sir.

[lost highway]

The instant he touched the officer's weapon he was no longer unarmed.

 

You can't be armed by the weapon you're being shot with.

[lost highway]

I understand your points but I just feel like very few people in this argument are empathizing with the perspective of a police officer (not the officer in the Ferguson case, just the police in general)

 

I think there's plenty of bias on the part of the critics of cops.  This has never been about what all police are doing to me.  I think the "Fuck the Poh Lees" camp is wrong, and they're in the way of progress.  The problem is about what this one officer did.  It would seem letting this guy off lends to much merit to people who have some overarching perception of "all cops".  You and I know that "all cops" don't shoot unarmed people.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Just wondering Mr. Heartbreak, and I hope I am not overstepping any lines here, but what is your age and race?

No worries. I'm a 50 y.o. Caucasian...not exactly the demographic that has to worry about being profiled by the cops. I should clarify that those incidents I mentioned occurred when I was around 20, 25 and 40 (but still looking 30), respectively. There does seem to be a certain gravitas that occurs with age, and the natural order of things is that now cops are often much younger than me, and more inclined to call me "sir" than to make snide references to my mother.

 

One thing which is somewhat germane to the conversation (or at least I see it as such) is the increasing militarization of the police force. As lost highway noted, this kind of thing would not happen in other countries. Now, that may be because police do not even carry guns in some of them, and would have to use a taser or night stick instead. But it is extremely troubling to see how much, and what kind of, surplus military equipment is being offloaded to police forces. Check out images or videos of the stuff that was going on when they were looking for the Boston marathon bomber.

 

http://libn.com/2013/04/19/manhunt-in-boston-after-bombing-suspect-is-killed/

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/manhunt-cost-boston-hundreds-millions-dollars-experts-article-1.1322857

 

You never saw anything even remotely resembling this stuff before 1990. Armored trucks, tanks, assault vehicles, whatever. So, based on the way things are going, I expect these types of situations to get much worse before they even get marginally better. I am deeply pessimistic about our country's increased violence and especially the use of overwhelming force against individuals.