Hate to Get So Personal

[Leo]

Once upon a time, a decade or so ago, I made my living in, among other places, divorce courts and probate courts (Children Protection proceedings) arguing the "best interests" of minor children. I'd be happy to discuss this with you. PM me if you like.

[anodyne]

I was an only child of a single mother, she worked and went to school full time. I was left home alone from the age of 8, so I don't see 11 as being that big of a deal. but then, I never had to take care of anyone else...so maybe I shouldn't comment.

me too, except i took care of my little brother (2 years younger). I had to cook dinner for the family since I was 8. That said, i didn't have epilepsy. and i'm 32, so this was the mid-80s.

[austrya]

Epilepsy aside, I don't think 11 is too young to be left alone, if you feel your kid is mature enough to handle it. One thing that bothers me though is that the kids were scared to be left home alone. If a kid that age is scared to be home alone, they shouldn't be left.

 

My oldest will probably be 25 before he's not afraid to be left home alone.

[Gobias Industries]

Major vibes through these tougher times.

 

I was never really been alone in the house until I was about, say, 13, and it wasn't really bad, since I'm the youngest I was usually the one being taken care of...so I can't really help you. But hope it all turns well!

[pillowy star]

Well, I share custody with my ex husband for our 17 year old daughter too, which means in fact that she is ruling our time schedules and decides where she wants to be when *sigh*. There are problems, but whenever one occurs, I address him, not the police/lawyers/child care.

 

I have been left alone over the weekend when I was 13 with a newborn baby and a 9 year old lunatic who on top of that had severe oxygen supply aka breathing problems, so I think a 8 year old and a 11 year old can manage, if the neighbours aren't too far away.

 

In my opinion it is wrong to treat a probably well-meant attempt of testing out the childrens' maturity like a crime. That's not gonna improve relations within the - extended - family.

[myboyblue]

I'm shocked that so many think 11...or 8 for that matter is an appropriate age to stay home the entire day. I wouldn't dream of leaving my 8 year old home alone for 10 minutes yet alone 8 hours. You can go to jail for that. Just because some of you have had to deal with that doesn't make it right.

 

Good luck in your custody battle.

[M. (hristine]

I've always been told that joint custody rarely works, since it means continuing to co-parent the kid(s). That means the parents have to be on extremely good terms with each other, planning together, etc. I can't think of many split couples who can do that. I can't even agree with my ex on basic things like religion and schooling.

 

Maybe if WW talks to a lawyer, they can find enough 'holes in the plot' to recommend filing a motion for full custody? Dunno..just a thought. Her ex clearly broke her trust, especially lying about the plans and making a major care decision unilaterally. That doesn't qualify as joint custody by the definitions I've understood.

In my personal experience and the experience of many divorced friends with shared custody of their kids, this is patently false.

 

Two human beings rearing a child is a tough job, made tougher when households split. But to say it rarely works is insulting. It insults the many, many parents who work incredibly hard and sacrifice a great deal to give their kids some sense of stability and famiial continuity. When the child's welfare is considered before the parents' ego, the kid wins. This mantra gets repeated so often that it seems trite. But just because it's harder to do, doesn't make it less true.

 

It's interesting how quickly we want to call in the big guns (no offense you fine lawyers, and you know who you are.) And certainly there are situations when there is no other recourse. Is this one of those situations? WW didn't say whether there were ongoing big concerns, or a one time screw up. Is the kids' dad generally responsible or not? Big screw ups or minor disagreements? Has the new step mom changed the dynamic somehow?

 

These kinds of statements always make me a bit leery:

Well there's been a long list of problems, nothing that would necessarily stand up in court in order to change things.

Why did the dad lie about their care instead of telling WW that care wasn't available, and ask if could WW help out or come up with an alternative plan? The girls told the cops they were scared to be home alone? Did they call their mom during the day and asked to be picked up or at least tell their mom what was up? If they didn't, why not? My 11 year old daughter would have called me in a heartbeat had something been amiss like this. (And I'm not talking about being home alone. Though I have never left her for that length of time, I think she would be OK. I'm talking about the situation being different than what was expected or usually done. Especially if she was scared.) What history precipitates charges being filed against WW? Do these situations immediately escalate into high drama? WHY? Do the kids get to see it?

 

Does anybody have relevent conversations anymore? Is it even possible to have civil conversations, conflict resolution and problem solving between two adults without having attorneys present?

 

Everyone's opinion about whether or not the girls are old enough to be left on their own is irrelevent. Those decisions should be made by those adults who know those children. Their parents.

 

I wish you luck, WW. I hope your girls can come through happy and healthy.

[pillowy star]

Amen to M. Christine's post.

[Edie]

It's interesting.... I have a 9 year-old and we have never left him alone. Now, I do go down to the laundry room for 15-20 minutes at a time and have left him alone for that long for 3-4 years now. TBH, I think he can handle longer stretches, but it will likely be a year or longer until we do -- HE's the one that needs to be comfortable. The fact that WWs kids were not is highly telling. Their feelings and sensibilities were not respected by WWs ex. WW, ignore this if you want, but you could tell your kids that if something like that happens again that they should call you when they don't feel right -- then go stay with them until he/adult gets home so your ex won't feel like you somehow violated the agreement.

 

Also, my husband, his ex and me are another example of people that have successfully communicated with each other AT ALL TIMES when my stepson was involved. He was 6 when my husband and I got together -- Max is now 19 and pretty well adjusted.

 

Anyway, WW, good luck. Keep us posted.

[W(TF)]

In my personal experience and the experience of many divorced friends with shared custody of their kids, this is patently false.

 

Two human beings rearing a child is a tough job, made tougher when households split. But to say it rarely works is insulting. It insults the many, many parents who work incredibly hard and sacrifice a great deal to give their kids some sense of stability and familial continuity. When the child's welfare is considered before the parents' ego, the kid wins.This mantra gets repeated so often that it seems trite. But just because it's harder to do, doesn't make it less true.

 

I never suggested that joint custody is impossible, or undesireable. It is VERY desireable and definitely something worth striving for. What I have been told is that family judges rarely grant joint custody, unless both parents can demonstrate their ability and willinglness to compromise and co-operate on family issues. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

As for the rest of what I posted, I agree it may have been a bit presumptuous. I feel like I 'know' WW well enough to take her side, but no, I don't have all the facts here.

[Wilco Worshipper]

Again, I thank you all for your words and support. I will keep you posted.

 

I see and hear what M. Chris is saying. However there is a very, very long history of problems with things at their household over the past four years. The girls have asked to move out more than once. The father has always made changes in order to make them happy, but eventually everything goes back to the way it was. I won't bore you all with the details, but trust me all who are personally involved get it. I've tried talking WITH him, not AT him. I've gone to the school. I've gone to the girls' doctors. I was told try talking (I have), then counseling (which they wanted nothing to do with) and if all else fails you'll have to go the legal route. I feel with ALL that has happened that they/he left me no choice.

 

 

I will leave you with these two thoughts to ponder...

 

 

1) How do you feel about the idea of children who have every single toy taken away less than a month after Christmas and are told continuosly for eight months MAYBE next weekend you'll get them back?

 

2) What do you think about a child who is so in fear for getting yelled at for spilling on her clothes that she won't eat school lunch on Pasta Day?

[W(TF)]

I think you should go for custody. Or at least, find some way to empower the kids not to take that kind of crap. They're almost at the age where they are "in the middle" of it, like it or not. Others may disagree with me, but I believe bullying children into submission is one of the worst forms of "parenting" imaginable. Parents should have to earn the right to parent.

 

It sucks to have to take a hardline approach... but sometimes being too accomodating ends up being worse for the children. Ask me how I know.

[Atticus]

I pray for all involved that the kids will win

[M. (hristine]

Amen.

 

And in that vein I strongly encourage counselling/support groups for the three people whose emotional wellbeing you are charged with the care of. You and your girls. It's critically important to protect them from the anger and drama of this process.

 

Good luck.

[LouieB]

Amen.

 

And in that vein I strongly encourage counselling/support groups for the three people whose emotional wellbeing you are charged with the care of. You and your girls. It's critically important to protect them from the anger and drama of this process.

 

Good luck.

This sounds like good advise also. Frankly this is a very complex situation that no amount of explaining on a music messageboard can possibly illuminate. Asking for support is one thing, asking for advise in a place that can't possibly deal with the nuances of a situation like this can only create more problems. Heck half the time we can't even talk about music in a logical and civil way.

 

LouieB

[Wilco Worshipper]

I pray for all involved that the kids will win

Thank you, as do I.

Amen.And in that vein I strongly encourage counselling/support groups for the three people whose emotional wellbeing you are charged with the care of. You and your girls. It's critically important to protect them from the anger and drama of this process.Good luck.

The oldest one actually starts counselling next week. I will find something for the youngest one, as well.Thanks again.

[Wilco Worshipper]

For those of you concerned for the girls, I ask that you please send your vibes, good thoughts and prayers this way. I am meeting with my lawyer at 10am to go over the details and figure out the next step(s).

 

 

The girls have expressed their wishes to live here full-time (and for the record, this is their 3rd request in less than a year). The school principal, nurse and guidance counselor who have all known the girls since kindergarten are appalled at the fact that they were left alone, as is their pediatrician and the oldest one's neurologist. I am only telling you this, as they obviously know & understand best next to me. Also, I think I failed to mention over the previous two weekends that their Dad (& now stepmom) had reported increases in the oldest one's "spells/episodes", so NOW was really not the time to "test her out" on staying home alone.

 

 

Thanks again for your support. I will keep you posted.

[j4lackey]

Sounds like the wind's in your favor. Good luck!

[deepseacatfish]

For those of you concerned for the girls, I ask that you please send your vibes, good thoughts and prayers this way. I am meeting with my lawyer at 10am to go over the details and figure out the next step(s).

The girls have expressed their wishes to live here full-time (and for the record, this is their 3rd request in less than a year). The school principal, nurse and guidance counselor who have all known the girls since kindergarten are appalled at the fact that they were left alone, as is their pediatrician and the oldest one's neurologist. I am only telling you this, as they obviously know & understand best next to me. Also, I think I failed to mention over the previous two weekends that their Dad (& now stepmom) had reported increases in the oldest one's "spells/episodes", so NOW was really not the time to "test her out" on staying home alone.

Thanks again for your support. I will keep you posted.

I missed out on most of this thread, but good luck with all of this. Your kids have a right to live happily and comfortably and with the best care possible. Hopefully this all gets worked out in a way that will help them--and will work for you (and perhaps your ex as well). I am not a parent (nor have I dealt first-hand with custody issues), but it seems to me that if you have proven yourself to be responsible and pro-active about these kids, and that they also have expressed interest multiple times in living full-time with you, and your ex has done questionable things (like leaving them alone for 8 hours when they were not comfortable and their were potential medical issues)--and has made them feel uncomfortable on an emotional level--then you probably have some real leverage. It may take some time but it will get worked out. Just keep looking out for your kids and what is best for them, they'll appreciate all the work you did for the rest of their lives.

[Wilco Worshipper]

Your kids have a right to live happily and comfortably and with the best care possible.

 

 

And that's EXACTLY what this is ALL about

 

 

 

So I went to the lawyers and got the cross-complaint drawn up and the modification for the custody issue ready. We're hoping to present the modification at the already set date which is next Wednesday. The Child Services people, well woman, are interviewing the girls at school as I type. Then she's coming here to talk to me. Which is why I'm here...I can't close my eyes. I can't relax. I've done about all the cleaning and picking up that I can. I'm going nuts!!! I guess they'll be contacting the girls' father today. Tomorrow he should be served and Wednesday is the 1st court date, as stated above, I know.

 

The girls did meet with him last night to tell him they're not comfortable being there anymore and would rather just come back on Saturday overnights when they KNOW he'll be around. He wasn't happy, obviously. I tried talking to him, probably more than I should have. My basic jist being "Isn't the happiness of the girls what's REALLY important here?!?". He apparently thinks I'm butting in, as I was told to "mind my own business". Whatever...

 

The girls are nervous about today after school, as they are usually picked up by the stepmom. They said they are going to refuse to get in the car if it's not mine. This is the part that really worries me. I'm going to try my best to be one of the 1st cars there, but we can't pull into the parking lot until the buses leave. Anyhoo, more than you probably need to know but there it is. Like I said, I'm just trying to fill up my time until this lady comes to interview me. I've never been through anything remotely like this. I did talk to her yesterday over the phone. She seemed okay enough. She did seem to be hurrying me along, but that's probably more due to the fact that she's just coming out here in person today. I guess...idk

 

Alright I'm gonna go now...*big sigh*

[Wilco Worshipper]

UPDATE:

 

 

The lady from Child Services came...she was nice. We really just chatted a bit. She personally disagrees with what they did. Professionally, it is still to be determined, as it is not just up to her. She is contacting the father and stepmother today. Even if they decide legally NOT to support the allegations, she says she will have a VERY LONG talk with him to let him know what they will and will not do with the girls.

[bjorn_skurj]

Ganesh vibes to you too. If the kids want to live with you and you want them to live with you, then that's the way it should be, no?

 

 

 

[blindgonzo]

good luck with everything WW!

[Wilco Worshipper]

FINAL UPDATE:

 

 

So after he was served papers last night and contacted by Child Services today, I think he finally got that I meant business and that I am going to do whatever my children needed me to do on their behalf.

 

VERY, VERY LONG story short...he let me take them away from school today (after a small incident w/ school officials). He later called, we went back & forth and ended up at his house so that he & the youngest could chat (as she INSISTED she was not going back AT ALL!). He talked with the girls, he & I talked, then the stepmom showed up....she and the girls talked, we three adults talked and then FINALLY all five of us got together. The two of them apologized to the girls, their father is changing his work schedule asap and the stepmother is going to seek anger mgmt counseling. The toys will be brought back down this weekend. And the two of them understand that the children should not be left alone at this stage of their lives. So the girls are willing to keep the schedule the way it is. Their father & I are dropping all the charges against each other.

 

 

So hopefully this all will result in a Happy Ending all around. Thank you all AGAIN so much for your support, advice, vibes and words of comfort! You are all truly WONDERFUL people!!!

[tongue-tied lightning]