the soccer thread

[Bubs101]

Why would you want to watch women's football when there's world class football on in Italy, England and Spain weekly? Sincerely, can never work this out about Americans, girls are shocking to watch play (bar Martha, she's decent). And they have no respect for tradition, no swapping shirts

[cryptique]

The sexist attitudes in this thread are really starting to bug me. If you don't like women's soccer, don't fucking watch it, but don't criticize those of us who do, directly or by implication.

 

I just enjoy watching this sport regardless of who's playing. I watch European matches on TV whenever I can. When I studied for a semester in London, I spent countless hours standing on the terraces at various football grounds. I even go to an occasional college or high school match. I'm a soccer fiend. Why wouldn't I want to watch the Women's World Cup?

[caliber66]

No offense meant by my previous post. I did not know the names of the women involved, and what I typed is pretty much what happened. I would have said the same thing had a similar turn of events unfolded during a men's match that I had on in the background while I was eating my soy yogurt before work (although I probably would have said "dude(s)" instead of "chick(s)).

[cryptique]

The U.S. women received a major beatdown by Brazil today. I didn't get a chance to watch any of it (they still haven't installed that plasma screen with satellite TV in my cube here at work) but the score and stats don't paint a pretty picture.

 

Damn. On the one hand, it's great that the rest of the world have caught up to the Americans. On the other hand, it sucks that the U.S. now seems to have their own catching up to do.

 

No offense meant by my previous post. I did not know the names of the women involved, and what I typed is pretty much what happened. I would have said the same thing had a similar turn of events unfolded during a men's match that I had on in the background while I was eating my soy yogurt before work (although I probably would have said "dude(s)" instead of "chick(s)).

Yours wasn't one of the ones I was referring to, but I'll get all miffed about it now if that'll make you feel better.

[PigSooie]

The U.S. women received a major beatdown by Brazil today. I didn't get a chance to watch any of it (they still haven't installed that plasma screen with satellite TV in my cube here at work) but the score and stats don't paint a pretty picture.

 

It'll be intersting to see what the US head coach has to say about his decision to change goalkeepers.

[Bubs101]

Didn't \germany beat America last time??

 

As for sexist attitudes, I'm not trying to be sexist. It's just as a European and lover of football I can't understand why Yanks would rather watch Martha and Hamm than Totti and Kaka??

[isadorah]

Didn't \germany beat America last time??

 

As for sexist attitudes, I'm not trying to be sexist. It's just as a European and lover of football I can't understand why Yanks would rather watch Martha and Hamm than Totti and Kaka??

 

 

you might think it's not sexist, but being a woman that watches and plays soccer (and was quite devestated when women's professional soccer folded), i take a bit offense to it. it is still a rather skewed attitude to show regardless of if you call it sexist or not. women's soccer is a different game than men's. i feel i am justified in saying that having been the only woman on a "coed" team and learning the nuances between the difference in play. each is worthy of watching for different reasons and merit. to say you can't understand why watch women when you can watch men, well, it does sound sexist.

 

thanks cryptique for taking a stand as well.

 

as for the brazil game, i didn't watch, but damn, looking at the stats it does look like we had our asses handed to us. oyi. i was really surprised about the keeper change at the last minute and yeah, wonder if that was a good decission or not. although in one newspaper they reported at how amazing (damn her name escapes me) the keeper's stats were and that she had only let in two goals the whole world cup. being a defender myself, i think only 2 goals is 2 goals too many, but then again, i've never been a big fan of scurry. yeah she's scrappy and when dealing with heavy footwork she'll take a player out (in or outside of the box), but she's too risky in my book and takes too many chances coming out then the forwards make their powershots and it is all over. then again, where was the defense to have 4 goals and 8 shots, that's not very good odds to give to the goal keeper not matter who she is.

 

so it's germany and brazil in the final. that should be a good game. two very different playing styles.

[cryptique]

As for sexist attitudes, I'm not trying to be sexist. It's just as a European and lover of football I can't understand why Yanks would rather watch Martha and Hamm than Totti and Kaka??

Who says we have a preference? I love watching them all.

 

It's "Marta," by the way ... and

should help you remember her name in the future.

[Bubs101]

you might think it's not sexist, but being a woman that watches and plays soccer (and was quite devestated when women's professional soccer folded), i take a bit offense to it. it is still a rather skewed attitude to show regardless of if you call it sexist or not. women's soccer is a different game than men's. i feel i am justified in saying that having been the only woman on a "coed" team and learning the nuances between the difference in play. each is worthy of watching for different reasons and merit. to say you can't understand why watch women when you can watch men, well, it does sound sexist.

 

That's not exactly correct. The Women's game is not "different" infact, it's practically the same but the referees are stricter. As for can't undesrtand why I'd watch men and not women, I dont watch MLS or anything lower than second tier football in Europe because the standard is so poor. For the same reason I don't watch Women's FOOTBALL. Marta is amazing (sorry bout the original spelling) but she's just 1 player. Generally speaking the defending is shocking (I will accept that that was a hint of sexism but is for the most part true) and the Goalkeeping is absolutely atrocious,I rarely see a shot that is hit to the side of a keeper and on target not go in.I really think the women's game could do with smaller posts. The club game is also in need of a revamp, the female first division in England is probably the least competitive tournament in the world and Arsenal are European champs.

 

Please understand that I have watched a good few women's matches in the last year, the FA cup final which was 9-1 or something stupid and a couple of world cup matches which were all one sided (bar England- Germany which was crap). The 2 legs of the European final were good but that's cos it was Martha against a well organised team (with a male manager) so the defense was alot more organised than usual. As for you're all-sex team, fair play, I'd have alot of respect for that as I would for all women who like football. Mainly so that when I'm using my Irish charm on them I don't have to pretend I love their shoes and reassure them that red really is their colour, instead I can debate whether Chelsea should have sacked Jose etc.

 

The reason why I only sparingly watch Women's football is because in all fairness, it's not great. You said it's a different game but it's not. It just sounds like you're looking for a different way to say it's worse

[cryptique]

That's not exactly correct. The Women's game is not "different" infact, it's practically the same but the referees are stricter. As for can't undesrtand why I'd watch men and not women, I dont watch MLS or anything lower than second tier football in Europe because the standard is so poor. For the same reason I don't watch Women's FOOTBALL.

So don't watch it. Nobody's saying you have to. But to come in here and rail against us for watching it ... that's just third-rate wankery.

 

The 2 legs of the European final were good but that's cos it was Martha against a well organised team (with a male manager) so the defense was alot more organised than usual.

That's your most sexist statement yet.

 

The reason why I only sparingly watch Women's football is because in all fairness, it's not great. You said it's a different game but it's not. It just sounds like you're looking for a different way to say it's worse

Let's be fair here: how long have women even been able to play club or international football at a truly competitive level? A decade? Has it even been that? And how long have young girls played, in massive numbers, from an early age, learning ball skills and game strategy before they lose all their baby teeth? Is that even happening now, anywhere but in the U.S.? And in how many countries in the world can girls grow up with a serious dream of making a living playing the game? Zero?

 

There's a lot of societal history here that means that the women's game hasn't yet attained the level of skill and excitement* that the men's game has, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth watching. The women's teams are drawing from a much smaller pool of talent because society has not yet fully blessed women's athletics -- not just as a spectator sport, but even as a participatory endeavor. Walk into a sporting goods store even here in the U.S., and see how much women's gear there is compared to what's there for the men. Women aren't encouraged to pursue sport, and those who do often face great adversity, from peers, parents, and/or society at large. Historically, little girls have been given dolls and tea sets while boys have been given balls and various other trappings of sport.

 

When I attended Women's World Cup games in 1999, the Americans were so clearly the best team in the tournament that there was only one other team (Sweden or Norway, I think) that was considered to have even a chance at beating them. That is probably because of attitudes about women and sport that began to change a bit earlier in the U.S. than they may have elsewhere in the world. Now we've seen two straight Cups where the U.S. hasn't even made it to the final. The rest of the world is catching up to the Americans very quickly, and may even have passed them.

 

The level of play is improving across the board -- true, it's not first-class yet, but give it some time. You're judging a product that's still pretty new, far before it's had a chance to truly blossom. I don't disagree that the level of play isn't the best right now, but it will improve. And it'll do so regardless of whether the managers are male or female.

 

 

_{* - A majority of Americans would likely say that even the men's game is deadly dull, regardless of the level at which it is played.}

[isadorah]

You said it's a different game but it's not. It just sounds like you're looking for a different way to say it's worse

 

actually, i say it is a different game because the game tends to be played differently. this is a bit of a generalization, but men's games are often played in the air, a lot more headers, a lot more long passes, and the skill to the footwork is definitely different. women's games are often more ground work passing, and fast touch dribbling. one can even say that south american style of play is different from north american style of play, there is a whole lot more footwork going on in south american play. i am still not saying one is better than the other, both have merit in style and equally worthy of watching.

 

cryptique is dead on, women have not had the historical time frame to grow as a sport in play and in support from spectators. that is shown in the fact that the women's professional american league could not be sustained and folded very quickly. as cheesey as this sounds, there is a lot of merit to the storyline of the movie bend it like beckham and the US did start something that the rest of the rest of the world is catching up on with women's sports. title 9 is still very young, often threatened, and made it possible for little girls to now be encouraged to play sports. give it a few more generations and the play level and skills will be better. look at US men's soccer, the skill level isn't quite as good as european soccer, but it is still fun to watch and great. i don't hear you saying that you can't believe we are bothering to watch US men's soccer.

 

cryptique also hit on something, the marketing and tools/equipment still isn't available to women and definitely walk into a sporting goods store. i'd love to not have to dig for shin guards that fit me and aren't pink. that's not making an excuse against the women. he and i are both saying it's a great sport to watch regardless of who is playing and is even better to see the strides that are being made in women's sports considering how few opportunities have been available.

 

and again, saying something is different is not saying one is better than the other. and it is frustrating to be in a dialogue about enjoying a sport and have someone say because it's women it's not as good. quite frankly that's just crap.

[Reni]

It's "Marta," by the way ... and

should help you remember her name in the future.

 

 

Wow. Beautiful.

[Reni]

That's not exactly correct. The Women's game is not "different" infact, it's practically the same but the referees are stricter.

 

The reason why I only sparingly watch Women's football is because in all fairness, it's not great. You said it's a different game but it's not. It just sounds like you're looking for a different way to say it's worse

 

 

Ummmm I think she means the game is "different" in the style of play.....in the same way English football is a "different" game than Italian football.

 

(oops, I missed her much more eloquent post while posting)

[Bubs101]

i don't hear you saying that you can't believe we are bothering to watch US men's soccer.

 

cryptique also hit on something, the marketing and tools/equipment still isn't available to women and definitely walk into a sporting goods store. i'd love to not have to dig for shin guards that fit me and aren't pink. that's not making an excuse against the women. he and i are both saying it's a great sport to watch regardless of who is playing and is even better to see the strides that are being made in women's sports considering how few opportunities have been available.

 

and again, saying something is different is not saying one is better than the other. and it is frustrating to be in a dialogue about enjoying a sport and have someone say because it's women it's not as good. quite frankly that's just crap.

 

First of all, I'd be surprised if you did watch MLS. It's a shocking league and LA Galaxy are looking like they're repeating the mistakes that the league made in the 70's. MLS is full of european league rejects like Donovan, Xavier and Angel and has 1 truly gifted player in Beckham but the amount that he's earning shows how little the MLS has progressed.

 

Most people in Europe feel that America has focused on the Women's game because their male team is so far behind (I have lived in England and Italy and this is a common trend of thought) so for me it's a surprise that women can't get the products but you could just as easily by shin pads for hockey and use them. The reason so few oppurtunities are there is because outside of the States, most football fans don't care for Women's football. 4 (Italy, Argentina, Spain and France) of the main fotballing powers have still not tried to avance their female teams.

 

Also in fairness, America is a country where Political correctness has invaded media and the population so much that it's not really acceptable to say that the women's game isn't as skillfull. Like the Marta clip was very impressive take a look at this

 

 

I have told my friends that they might wanna check Marta out but they thought I was taking the piss, so I'm sympathetic to the challenge facing you but eventually America might have to wake up that when faced with the choice of which to watch, a top flight game in the premiership or a female league, most football fan's will choose the man's game so their probably isn't a great need for a women's proffessional league. If there was, it'd probably have to be designed to cater for women solely and further alienate men from the game

[Calexico]

Phew! I missed all the furore thankfully. That American chick who got sent off was totally ripped off. The Gooners won again today as well.

[bjorn_skurj]

FWIW, I can't really get into the MLS either, though if they ever name the New York team its proper name, Cosmos, I will reconsider. And FWIW, I love the way people in other countries spell "furor."

[Calexico]

FWIW, I can't really get into the MLS either, though if they ever name the New York team its proper name, Cosmos, I will reconsider. And FWIW, I love the way people in other countries spell "furor."

 

 

I always spelled it with the "e" on the end of the word. Am I dumb?

[caliber66]

Yeah, "Cosmose" doesn't mean anything.

[Griddles]

To revive the thread:

16 Birmingham

17 Wigan

18 Sunderland

all on 20 points given that fulham and derby are already relegated which one of the other three will go down? I think Wigan will go down. Sunderland has added some quality players this January, and Birmingham are defiantly better than the other two teams.

 

Also does AC Milan have what it takes to make themselves relevant in their league or not?

[austrya]

I'll have to tell Jay about this thread. He's all football, all the time.

 

He even ordered an Arsenal jacket, scarf, coffee mug, key chain, and some pencils and notebooks for the kids.

 

Our tv is on Fox Soccer Channel and GOLTV almost more than it's on the Disney Channel and that's saying a lot. He also has a Setanta subscription so he can watch games on his computer at work and at home. We don't get the regular channel with our cable.

[cryptique]

He also has a Setanta subscription so he can watch games on his computer at work and at home.

Gonna have to look into this...

[Calexico]

I'll have to tell Jay about this thread. He's all football, all the time.

 

He even ordered an Arsenal jacket, scarf, coffee mug, key chain, and some pencils and notebooks for the kids.

 

 

 

Whoever Jay is he is a smart man!

[austrya]

This be Jay

 

http://forums.viachicago.org/index.php?showuser=169

[Griddles]

Well, maybe Jay should contribute so I do not have to talk to myself about soccer anymore. People are starting to think I'm crazy.

AC Milan won today 2-0 with Pato grabbing both goals. moving up into 6 with two games in hand. 4 place is not out of reach.

[austrya]

I'm sure he'll be on here later. I told him about the thread and he was pretty excited to be able to talk to someone about it. He just hasn't been on his computer yet today.

 

Our son plays indoor soccer and he took him to practice and then we have to go to dinner. So it will be a while yet.