Democratic Primary

[ZenLunatic]

1. You know, if Bush had just been honest and said to the American people, "This war is about secure access to oil in a world where we'll be competing with China and India for this resource," I might have been behind it more. I would still be pissed about $3-plus a gallon gas. Is that why we spent all this money and blood? Man, Bush sucks. He can't even get self-serving conquest right.

 

So its okay to kill people to get oil at a cheaper price?

[JerseyMike]

So its okay to kill people to get oil at a cheaper price?

 

If we were getting oil at a cheaper price, I would contemplate that question!

[Reni]

I think what he is saying is that he at least wishes the government were honest in their intention, however twisted they might be......not that oil is worth a war/death/etc

[ZenLunatic]

I think what he is saying is that he at least wishes the government were honest in their intention, however twisted they might be......not that oil is worth a war/death/etc

 

America would have never backed a war based on oil prices. It had to be about terrorism, in that scenario, we are being self-defending. The only viable excuse for war is self defense.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think what he is saying is that he at least wishes the government were honest in their intention, however twisted they might be......not that oil is worth a war/death/etc

I'll cop to that.

[bjorn_skurj]

America would have never backed a war based on oil prices. It had to be about terrorism, in that scenario, we are being self-defending. The only viable excuse for war is self defense.

I think a war presented on the basis of economic well-being would have gotten plenty of support. Just bring up the specter of a gallon of gas costing more than $3 and ... oops.

[cryptique]

Bill Clinton=another rich man's son. Nothing more.

What?!? You know, this internet thing you're on is full of information. Why don't you search for some, instead of saying something stupid like this?

 

Clinton's father was a traveling salesman and died before Bill was born.

 

Clinton's stepfather was an abusive alcoholic.

[ZenLunatic]

I think a war presented on the basis of economic well-being would have gotten plenty of support. Just bring up the specter of a gallon of gas costing more than $3 and ... oops.

 

Umm.... I think you need to rethink the value of a human life.

[Reni]

tell that to the Bush Admin.

[bjorn_skurj]

Umm.... I think you need to rethink the value of a human life.

Dude, one of the least true things you hear said is "you can't place a price on human life." Bollocks. It's done all the time, by governments, health insurance companies, you name it. I think everybody thinks their own life and those of their favorite people is priceless; the further you get away from that, the less valuable lives are. Only the most moral and spiritually pure among us - and I think I'm all right, but I know I am half-devil, maybe more than half, deep inside - truly, truly thinks all people, everywhere, have the same value, and that that value is infinite. If this were not so, why does stuff like Rwanda and Darfur happen? Why do we not have universal health care? Why are so many lives destroyed by sadness and depression and callousness? This is not to say that we should not work toward universal infinite love - of course we should, and that may well be God's purpose for us in this world - but it's a steep, steep climb to get to that mountaintop. See also Bob Marley's "War" for a concise explanation.

[Mr. Kinsley]

Man did I ever get in on this slugfest too late. Here's my $3.63 worth. And I'll even try to answer the original question! (Yes, there was a point to this thread long before the name calling.)

NOTE: I just finished this and damn this got long-winded! My apologies in advance - I had some catching up to do and the spirit just moved me to keep going!

 

DON'T VOTE!

 

I have a wild idea: if no one votes, what happens? Let's find out.

 

There ain't shit worth voting for anyway. Yes, I am a jaded youngster (24). The fact is that among the douche bags we have to choose from in the major parties, they have nothing new to say or offer. If they say anything radical or progressive, they either are lying or pandering for votes. Sure, Obama may say some high-falluting shit now, wait until he's under the gun in the Oval Office, and it will all spiral into the usual crap we've been dealing with for so long.

 

So don't vote. Please join me in my quest to expose the fraud that our political system is.

 

Worst. Idea. Ever.

 

If you don't like the Dems or GOP candidates - fine. I can see why. But what if EVERYBODY voted? There are other parties, you know?

 

My growing feeling is that when faced with the choice of choosing between the lesser of two (or more) evils, the only reasonable choice is to pick up and move to Canada, or, if that is not an option, forgo choosing altogether. At least while, as Jarvis Cocker once sang,

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I'm afraid that Obama is a bit inexpierenced. He seems like a good guy and is very personable but I don't think he has the expierence to lead the country. No thoughts on the others.

 

 

In a nutshell, you captured my concerns...that and he may have a lot of Chicago politics baggage floating around.

[markosis]

There are other parties, you know?

 

 

Damn right there are more than 2 parties. And I say with tongue in cheek, I think its more feasible to get everyone to not vote than to think America would elect anyone outside the sacred red & blue.

 

and I think I'm going to quote myself here, lest anyone forget:

 

people had some guts in the past. If they felt screwed over, they organized and changed things. Nowadays, most people won't do a thing unless their TVs tell them to.

 

I'm trying to bring to light the idea that we can make a difference if we do it together, by voting, or not voting.

 

IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that we have so many resources and privileges at our disposal and we choose to be led around instead of doing as our forefathers did and taking some fucking action. Our government wants us to think like good little monkeys and vote red or blue and everything will be great if we leave it up to them, but the fact is that we can do something. And 45% of Americans voting isn't going to do squat.

 

My point is, let's try something radical and see what happens, because its obvious that the current situation is garbage.

 

Need I remind you all of the fiasco that was the 2000 election? People voted, and their votes amounted to shit. As a 17 year old coming of age, it made a huge impact on me. I was exposed to our system in a very real way that has made me realize that just voting and sitting back to watch the b.s. that ensues isn't the answer. We're supposed to think that by simply voting we make a difference, how quickly we forget how an entire state got the shaft in a presidential election.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I feel like an ass for saying this, as my own personal ass will never be there, but I don't think we can leave Iraq in the short or medium term. We broke it, we bought it. If we have to nursemaid whatever preemie-baby-type democracy may or may not be there for the next 50 years, this nation is honor-bound to do it, at least until we have enough new nuclear power plants built for all the electric cars we'll have to drive.

 

 

That's the real deal my friend. We always cut and run and pay the price later.

 

This time, we can't afford to.

 

We just need to do it the right way and not acquire a new piece to the American empire.

[blindgonzo]

I believe that not voting is a horrible idea.

 

 

Also, even if the US stayed in Iraq for 20 or 50 more years, I don't think that that will create a democracy. a stable democracy really depends on a countries political culture (among a few other important things). if the people don't want a democracy, if they don't believe the government is competent and accountable enough to be responsive to the peoples' needs, if the people don't actually believe in the "liberal democratic" values that would be imposed on them (equality, freedom, etc.) and if the society is divided along several cleavages (like religion, ethnicity, class, etc.), then stability and a commitment to democracy will not last.

[blindgonzo]

Damn right there are more than 2 parties. And I say with tongue in cheek, I think its more feasible to get everyone to not vote than to think America would elect anyone outside the sacred red & blue.

 

and I think I'm going to quote myself here, lest anyone forget:

 

 

 

IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that we have so many resources and privileges at our disposal and we choose to be led around instead of doing as our forefathers did and taking some fucking action. Our government wants us to think like good little monkeys and vote red or blue and everything will be great if we leave it up to them, but the fact is that we can do something. And 45% of Americans voting isn't going to do squat.

 

My point is, let's try something radical and see what happens, because its obvious that the current situation is garbage.

 

Need I remind you all of the fiasco that was the 2000 election? Well, I just did.

 

ok, so besides NOT VOTING, what are YOU going to do to organize and mobilize people to push for "Change"?

[Atticus]

if there is no God and therefore no objective morality, what is the basis for making human life so valuable?

[Mr. Kinsley]

The reason so many people don't vote is because they feel that their vote doesn't matter and it won't change anything. So by saying IT DOESN'T MATTER, you're going to appeal to the same bunch of people who already don't vote. When MORE people become involved and speak up is when things change. But you're right about how we don't do anything unless our TVs tell us to. Maybe we should have a reality show where all the dem candidates live together in one house and the repubs live together in another house, and we air the shenanigans on CSPAN 24/7. Then we all call in a la American Idol to vote one candidate out every few weeks, and have the two remaining candidates live together with the Green Party, Libertarian Party, and Peace and Freedom Party candidates for a month. That ought to level the playing field! And you know it would be the biggest voter turnout of all time, since people wouldn't have to leave their house!

[markosis]

what are YOU going to do to organize and mobilize people to push for "Change"?

 

Well, on the horizon in NJ is a toll hike on our highways to make up for piss poor government spending. So if it goes through, I will take out ads in local papers to attempt to convince my fellow Jerseyans not to pay tolls. They cannot fine everyone, and I'm definitely willing to take one for the team. That's my contribution, if the toll hikes come to pass.

 

The reason so many people don't vote is because they feel that their vote doesn't matter and it won't change anything. So by saying IT DOESN'T MATTER, you're going to appeal to the same bunch of people who already don't vote. When MORE people become involved and speak up is when things change.

 

I totally agree. I'd say an election day where no one votes as a message that we despise our broken system would surely make some difference. You don't think that if we collectively gave the finger to the system by not taking part in the buying and selling of candidates that some change would happen?

[Mr. Kinsley]

What do you actually ever DO? You sound like some sort of sofa revolutionary.

[markosis]

I'm trying to get people to think. A wild idea, I know.

[Mr. Kinsley]

To think about doing nothing. Were you a writer for Seinfeld?

[markosis]

Jesus christ. I like that people are willing to jump down my throat rather than read what I have written. I'm trying to get people to think. Like, maybe all the stuff we're told by our teachers and politicians and television sets may be a load of shit. What, might I ask, do you do to enact change? Or, if you do nothing then you must be content with the current state of things?

 

My point is, once again, that as Americans we have the right to organize and make a statement. But we'd rather listen to what Wolf Blitzer has to say.

 

Look, I'm no Mother Jones or Ghandi, I'm just trying to expand the general consciousness of the people around me.

[blindgonzo]

Well, on the horizon in NJ is a toll hike on our highways to make up for piss poor government spending. So if it goes through, I will take out ads in local papers to attempt to convince my fellow Jerseyans not to pay tolls. They cannot fine everyone, and I'm definitely willing to take one for the team. That's my contribution, if the toll hikes come to pass.

 

Might I ask what you choose to do for change? You vote, ok. What else?

 

well, i'm glad you're doing something. one reason i am skeptical about people not voting is that i think that for many people who are fed up with their system...not voting is ALL they do, and i don't think that is good enough. also, i'm doing a research paper this semester about youth participation in politics, so your stance of the no voting spiked my interest.

 

as for me, i have always been interested in politics. i also happen to be getting a degree in political science and this has obviously helped me be aware of possible avenues of change and improvement in my own system of government (i'm from Canada). i live in a constituency and province that has been dominated by right-wing parties since 1935. most of the elections in Alberta have produced overwhelming majorities, and there has never been a minority government elected. i know that my vote, for a fact, does not count in this constituency (and anyone else's who doesn't vote for the Conservative candidate). our single-member plurality system (like yours) makes the votes for the winning candidate the ONLY votes that actually count. the others are wasted. even though there is about 30% support for the Liberal party in Alberta, they only get about 19% of the seats. the NDP got 10% of the popular vote, but only received 5% of the seats.

 

so, what am I going to do to try and change things? well, i think that i will be working towards creating awareness and education about reforming the electoral system in Canada as a whole, and provincially as well. this is already an important topic in Canada, and I will campaign and support this cause in any way that i can. reforming the electoral system to a mixed-member proportional system wouldn't fix every problem of course, but I think it would have a really good impact on the way that people perceive politics and the government and it would make it so that everyone's vote would actually count.

 

sorry for getting carried away. i like this kind of stuff.

[Mr. Kinsley]

No, I don't really do enough, you're right. Am I proud of that? Not really. I used to do some volunteer work with a few buddies of mine, but that was before we all had kids. Caring for toddlers is sort of like having your own little non-profit!

 

I do believe that voting for Obama is a step in the right direction and voting for him is actually doing something. To be perfectly honest I'd much rather be voting for Al Gore. (A Gore/Obama ticket would kick 27 different kinds of ass, by the way.) Especially the new and improved Al Gore. I think getting away from Washington for a while has really helped him. He's not nearly the wooden, stiff policy wonk he was in 2000. You want to bring about serious change? He's your man. Of course, he just 'came out' in favor of gay marriage (a move I must say I applaud), but it may as well be his way of saying, "See. I'm REALLY not running!"

 

Voting isn't hard, but it's something. And has been pointed out by others, low turnout always favors the GOP. Do you want the kind of change that a Huckabee-appointed supreme court justice will bring about? I really do understand your thinking behind the whole not voting thing, and I was just having some fun at your expense with the 'sofa revolutionary' comment (which I was rather proud of), but at the end of the day not voting is playing into the hands of those you seek to upend. So yes, I hear what you're saying, and I do see your point, but I hope you really will turn out to vote when the time comes.