Election 2008

[bobbob1313]

Can you give me some examples of people talking about a candidate like he's the messiah? Being inspired by a guy is not messianic, and saying that hearing him speak changed your life is often a figure of speech. Are there really many examples of people taking it beyond that? The only candidate running this time around that I think I really saw cultish behavior around was Ron Paul.

 

 

 

Just because you don't know what that change is doesn't mean that a lot of his supporters don't. I know there's a meme out there that Obama hasn't really explained his positions, but it's not really true. He's said a lot and published a lot and it's not hard to find if you know how to use the internets.

 

Sure, there are some people who support him without really knowing much about what he stands for, but that's true for any candidate thats ever run for anything.

 

I'm not saying Obama doesn't know his positions. I'm saying I've talked to fervent supporters of his who don't. Big difference.

 

And I'm basing this more on personal experience than what I've read. If you want me to find you articles where people talk about him like a messianic figure, I'm not going to, because they either don't exist or I'm lazy. But I've talked to folks who seriously turn me off to him because I can't get behind that kind of blind adoration.

 

It's a similar problem I've had with the 2 party system forever, where people turn off their brains once they choose who they support, rather than what they support.

[MrRain422]

That's fair. I think there are a lot of people who do decide who they're going to support and then never really think about it again. I just don't think that that's unique to Obama supporters.

[bobbob1313]

That's fair. I think there are a lot of people who do decide who they're going to support and then never really think about it again. I just don't think that that's unique to Obama supporters.

 

I don't either. It just rubs me the wrong way when certain Obama supporters do it because it comes off in a very evangelical way, if that makes sense.

 

Also, there's the case of me hearing black Obama supporters saying that if you vote against him you are letting your people down, which is a pretty fucking terrible thing to say.

[bjorn_skurj]

The Obama=Messiah thing is sort of media driven, but there's a lot of people who have very weird, creepy things to say about him. They talk about feeling his presence and being changed when he's in the room and stuff. It's not all the media.

It's called charisma, and Barack has it in spades. His detractors' mission has been to bring up as much crap as possible to tarnish that sheen. It may be that some in the media fell for it a little bit earlier this year and now feel guilty about it and are overcompensating.

[MrRain422]

Also, there's the case of me hearing black Obama supporters saying that if you vote against him you are letting your people down, which is a pretty fucking terrible thing to say.

 

I agree. That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

[Edie]

Also, there's the case of me hearing black women Obama Clinton supporters saying that if you vote against him her you are letting your people sisters down, which is a pretty fucking terrible thing to say.

 

 

I agree. That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

 

Uh huh.

[MrRain422]

Yep.

[explodo]

The question should be more why Hillary couldn't close him out, rather than the other way around. She is likely known by as many people around the world as Mario or Mickey Mouse and the question is why can't he, the relatively unknown junior senator from Illinois, close the deal?

[MattZ]

The question should be more why Hillary couldn't close him out, rather than the other way around. She is likely known by as many people around the world as Mario or Mickey Mouse and the question is why can't he, the relatively unknown junior senator from Illinois, close the deal?

 

I think much of the criticism leveled at Clinton in the aftermath of Iowa and Super Tuesday was exactly that. The inevitable Clinton machine could not close out the relatively unknown upstart junior senator from Illinois.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think much of the criticism leveled at Clinton in the aftermath of Iowa and Super Tuesday was exactly that. The inevitable Clinton machine could not close out the relatively unknown upstart junior senator from Illinois.

Yes. Shortly after they switched overdog/underdog roles.

[explodo]

I think much of the criticism leveled at Clinton in the aftermath of Iowa and Super Tuesday was exactly that. The inevitable Clinton machine could not close out the relatively unknown upstart junior senator from Illinois.

Indeed it was, but what changed? The media keeps her in this thing, otherwise she would have been "closed out" after Obama's twelve in a row back in February or whatever. The Clinton brand familiarity is the only thing sustaining her, in a whole host of ways. I don't think anybody can argue that, had Clinton won 12 in a row, we'd be where we are right now. And, of course, that same familiarity is why blue collar voters and everybody over 65 are still clinging to her wagon.

[Gobias Industries]

Indeed it was, but what changed? The media keeps her in this thing, otherwise she would have been "closed out" after Obama's twelve in a row back in February or whatever. The Clinton brand familiarity is the only thing sustaining her, in a whole host of ways. I don't think anybody can argue that, had Clinton won 12 in a row, we'd be where we are right now. And, of course, that same familiarity is why blue collar voters and everybody over 65 are still clinging to her wagon.

 

Because they cling to their religion and guns?

 

I agree wholeheartedly, but if you ask one of them they'll probably bring that trite crap up.

[laurie]

Because they cling to their religion and guns?

 

I agree wholeheartedly, but if you ask one of them they'll probably bring that trite crap up.

 

 

TOTALLY!!!!!!!

[bjorn_skurj]

Indeed it was, but what changed? The media keeps her in this thing, otherwise she would have been "closed out" after Obama's twelve in a row back in February or whatever. The Clinton brand familiarity is the only thing sustaining her, in a whole host of ways. I don't think anybody can argue that, had Clinton won 12 in a row, we'd be where we are right now. And, of course, that same familiarity is why blue collar voters and everybody over 65 are still clinging to her wagon.

You make it sound like it is not quite rational to want Hillary as the nominee. I know quite a few people who would disagree.

[explodo]

You make it sound like it is not quite rational to want Hillary as the nominee. I know quite a few people who would disagree.

Wanting is completely rational. It is when you pair it with the impossibility that you run into problems. I want to shoot lasers out of my eyes, but I gave up on that a long time ago.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think it's unlikely Hillary will be the nominee, but I will stop short of "impossible." Watch how the fundraising goes - that will tell the tale.

[mountain bed]

Christ, MORE bad news from the Obama camp. Evidently his campaign manager has made controversial remarks ("those who would vote against Obama on reasons of race are probably firmly in the McCain camp anyway").

 

I'm not going to question the validity of the statement, but you have to wonder what would cause the guy to say such a thing. Definitely not PC.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

What would cause you to say such a thing? Well, it was a pretty direct answer to the question he was asked

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/no_20080425_7012.php

Q: Well, one of the things to which some Democrats point -- the Clinton campaign has not said this publicly at least, but one certainly hears it in talking to supporters in more of a background way. Look at the racial polarization in the last several contests -- Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi -- is that going to be a problem? Is race going to be a problem for Barack Obama in the general election?

 

Plouffe: We really don't think so. I mean the vast, vast majority of voters who would not vote for Barack Obama in November based on race are probably firmly in John McCain's camp already. And I think if you look at the Democratic voters who are voting for Senator Clinton in some of these states, when you sort of look beneath it and you project how this is going to happen, Barack Obama is going to be the Democratic nominee. He is going to be articulating policies and ideas that they believe in. They won't agree with John McCain on issues like the economy and health care. And so I think that we are going to get the vast, vast majority of Democratic voters.

 

And, you know, I think if you look at -- we have won white voters, particularly white voters under 60, in a lot of states. We've won white men voters in most of the states we've competed in, and, you know, again, if you look at our favorable/unfavorable ratings and the characteristics and the traits with some of these voters that have voted for Senator Clinton in recent primaries, you know they are strong and they are going to be supportive of us in the fall.

 

Now, listen, this is a heated contest. So our supporters, the Clinton supporters -- this question of will you vote for the other person in the election in the fall -- you know, there's hard feelings. So a lot of people are saying no, but we seem to forget history. There's always hard feelings, and then the party comes together. And I think everyone ought to take a deep breath here and understand that the Democratic nominee is going to get the majority of Democratic voters. The question is, who can do best with independents and moderate Republicans, and who can create the best dynamic for turnout. If Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee, I think turnout amongst African-Americans, turnout amongst all voters under 40, and our ability to register new voters is going to be a very important piece of the puzzle.

[MrRain422]

What's the problem? Who is going to be offended by those remarks? I can only think of 2 groups:

1) Racists. Racists would not vote for Obama anyway (which is sort of the point) and

2) Non-racist McCain supporters. These people are also not going to vote for Obama

 

So why is this a problem for Obama? Shouldn't be an issue.

[mountain bed]

What's the problem? Who is going to be offended by those remarks? I can only think of 2 groups:

1) Racists. Racists would not vote for Obama anyway (which is sort of the point) and

2) Non-racist McCain supporters. These people are also not going to vote for Obama

 

So why is this a problem for Obama? Shouldn't be an issue.

I agree that it shouldn't be an issue (and to me it's not), but it sure was giving the talking heads fits last night.

[bobbob1313]

It's a fucking stupid thing to say. It implies that all racists are Republicans, which is a very stupid thing to say. He's not saying racists won't vote for Obama, he's saying all racists are McCain supporters. I'm not offended by it, per se, but I'm surprised that he would be so stupid as to say that. It's not an issue to me, but if I were Obama, I would be trying very hard to distance myself from those comments.

 

Of course, Obama's camp probably doesn't have a problem with those who vote based on his race as long as they are voting for him.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

It's a fucking stupid thing to say. It implies that all racists are Republicans, which is a very stupid thing to say. He's not saying racists won't vote for Obama, he's saying all racists are McCain supporters. I'm not offended by it, per se, but I'm surprised that he would be so stupid as to say that. It's not an issue to me, but if I were Obama, I would be trying very hard to distance myself from those comments.

 

Of course, Obama's camp probably doesn't have a problem with those who vote based on his race as long as they are voting for him.

What do you think his reponse to the question should've been?

[bobbob1313]

What do you think his reponse to the question should've been?

 

"No. Some vague reference to hope and change."

 

Why change things up now?

[mountain bed]

Can you imagine the level of self-censorship it must require to know nearly everything you say is being recorded for posterity? I wouldn't last 5 minutes in that cauldron.

[bjorn_skurj]

This just in from the year 2020: "Staffers for Barton's presidential campaign went into overdrive yesterday after reports surfaced that the presumptive nominee made over 20,000 posts, many with sex, drug and anarcho-syndicalist references, on an Internet bulletin board known as Via Chicago."